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#999537 - 12/23/18 12:36 PM Ocean mixed stock fisheries?
Keta Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/05/00
Posts: 1085
Why after all this time and at least a billion $ spent and another billion$ proposed to spend on theoretically saving the SRKW population has the issue of mixed stock international salmon fisheries escaped the scrutiny of it’s impact? Why is this practically never mentioned in news articles except maybe a little blurb about Wa,OR and Ca ocean fisheries? I have to come to the conclusion that the root cause is corruption of the governing entities but don’t want to believe that society has come to accepting this level of corruption as business as usual. My question is, what exactly is the mechanism that perpetuates this protection of these fisheries. I understand the economic influences. I have tried to research the background of PSC commissioners connection to fish related industry with little success, so, how do they keep this travesty protected ??

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#999551 - 12/23/18 06:49 PM Re: Ocean mixed stock fisheries? [Re: Keta]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5206
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The marine mixed stock fisheries were the first nail in the coffin currently being prepared for Chinook. Those were the fisheries that reduced adult age at maturity and consequently reduced adult size.

The short answer is that AK and Canada wield the power. AK does what it wants and nobody in the lower 49 have the horsepower to stop them. Plus, nobody else harvests AK salmon except under their direction. Canada can and does over harvest southern US stocks in order to get the US's attention and get AK off of Canada fish.

Because of the size of the AK/Canada catches that are "not controllable" there are instances where NOAA has established "Recovery Exploitation Rates" for some Chinook stocks down here where RERs are greater than estimated MSY escapement. Meaning that if we fish at the "Recovery Rate" we drive those stocks to extinction. This really isn't a secret, just nobody talks about it much.

The PSC Commissioners are appointed by the Federal Governments. There are some specific requirements as to who has to represented on the Commission and Panels.

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#999554 - 12/23/18 09:00 PM Re: Ocean mixed stock fisheries? [Re: Keta]
Keta Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/05/00
Posts: 1085
Thanks for the insight Carcasman. When I see the numbers of southern bound salmon caught in the northern fisheries it seems it would get a lot more attention in the scheme of recovering Wa. Salmon stocks. I would think that dumping billions into recovery projects would create some “horsepower” to force at least a compromise on passing more fish south. It just seems to me that the interception fisheries are low hanging fruit in getting some real results and that some portion of the recovery funds could be applied towards a buyout or something like that. Pay for some fishing quota? I just think it’s weird this doesn’t get the attention it deserves from the salmon recovery entities.

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#999556 - 12/23/18 09:32 PM Re: Ocean mixed stock fisheries? [Re: Keta]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5206
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
What would AK get in return? They could reduce their fisheries, have less tourist dollars (all those fish camps), and so on. As I said, since nobody catches their fish, nobody has a hammer. Want to pay all those fishermen not to fish?

Canada "might" be willing to get off southern fish if AK got off theirs and we got off of Fraser.

When it initially proposed, AK refused to agree to the US/Canada Treaty if AK catch counted against the NI share (the All-Citizen Suit). While funny at the time, one US Commissioner (from south of BC) asked "Can Alaska and the US agree on this?"

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#999559 - 12/24/18 08:30 AM Re: Ocean mixed stock fisheries? [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 3129
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

Bit back a NOAA paper had total impacts on Chinook running about 86% of harvestable by BC & AK. This included everyone from trollers to Rec even draggers by catch if I recall correctly. CWT tags do it around 50% of harvestable. The simple fact is any gains from terminal conservation efforts and habitat restoration will and are quickly gobbled up by the marine fisheries. It is a zero sum game and is what it is.


The one thing it does do is point out the foolishness of billions spent in habitat efforts be it preservation, restoration, hatchery reform, and not firmly address over harvest in the marine fisheries.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#999580 - 12/24/18 02:20 PM Re: Ocean mixed stock fisheries? [Re: Keta]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 2783
Ever notice how everyone who lives around here, fishes, and can afford it goes to Alaska or BC every year to fish? When you ask why, they all say the same thing: more fish. Not many stop to consider how many of those "more fish" are from Washington, and therefore, not many are aware that they are among the largest contingent of harvesters low-holing their friends and neighbors. Those who are aware do it anyway, because more fish.

As more and more opportunity goes by the wayside back home, more and more sport anglers are pushed further out to sea to do their fishing, and the cycle continues.

It is completely insane and idiotic that the open ocean will be the last fishery to close, but lest we forget, it's the one the produces the most economic activity per fish. Like any other messed up social strategy, you can follow the money right to the underlying reasons.

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#999582 - 12/24/18 02:46 PM Re: Ocean mixed stock fisheries? [Re: Keta]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5206
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
It's not just the salmon. I'll go out of state/country/continent for trout because fishings better elsewhere.

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#999622 - 12/26/18 07:05 AM Re: Ocean mixed stock fisheries? [Re: Keta]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 2783
Of course, Carcassman. Only reason I don't travel more to fish is that I don't have the funds.

I should clarify that I fully understand why everyone chases the hottest fishing, and I don't mean to demonize anyone for that. Heck, I like to think I could do a little more of that in a few years, after my kids fly the coop. No matter what, though, as much as I'd like to go to Alaska and coastal BC to fish salmon, I'll eat my own dog food and resist that urge, because I don't believe it's sustainable.

Just wanted to point out that, whether it's commercials in AK or sport guys trekking to AK and BC, it's mostly mainlanders (many from right here in Washington) harvesting in the open ocean off AK and BC. Hence the sacred cow designation....

It's also noteworthy that a vast majority of citizen lobbying for sport fisheries is financed by coastal (saltwater) anglers, and those folks aren't likely to clamor for closing the saltwater. I don't begrudge them for that; I'd likely do the same in their shoes.

This is all to say the system is working as designed, whether it's what's best for salmon and the future of the pursuit or not.

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#999625 - 12/26/18 07:52 AM Re: Ocean mixed stock fisheries? [Re: Keta]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5206
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
To clarify, also, I am not chasing "hotter" fishing. Simply the kind of fishing I like.

But, to the point, WDFW needs to realize that they need to produce a product in order to sell licenses. Or, sell them to folks who simply don't think much about what they are getting in return.

The interception fisheries are a problem, no doubt. BC is probably more of ani issue here than is AK, for our salmon. Those folks who go to the Kenai, Situk, Bristol Streams, Skeena, Nass, Dean, and so on are actually pursuing the fish as (to my mind) they should be. As adults in defined areas of separation. It is the marine mixed stock fisheries (everywhere, even WA and OR) that are exacerbating our issues with "recovery".

I also don't see that economics are all that bad. To chase salmon in marine waters here in WA I need a big, seaworthy, boat, truck to pull it, and the associated gear and electronics to purchase, operate, and maintain. Now, I don't have a need for a big boat or a truck to pull it, and so on. That money can go to trips on somebody else's gear.

As a more real-world example, to go deer hunting in WA, where I have permission on private land, will cost me about $500 a trip for the food, motel, gas and mileage, and so on. While I gladly pay this because I really like the folks on whose land I hunt, there are guided hunts (in WA) that are not much more spendy and I will get my doe. When all the costs are considered, the out of state trips aren't more spendy.

But, because I am a river fisherman, it is a whole lot cheaper to do that (non-boat). That is where WDFW has not only dropped the ball but kicked it out of play. The angler who is not a boat-owner (or boat-ho) is last in line as they just aren't that much of an economic benefit to the state. I think, too, that the river salmon angler wants/expects/demands a dead fish in return for the trip while the boat guy will are easily accept a beautiful day on the water.

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#999767 - 12/28/18 12:15 AM Re: Ocean mixed stock fisheries? [Re: Keta]
Keta Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/05/00
Posts: 1085
Great problem solved. Dump the billions into recovery and go to Canada or Alaska to fish. I do tend to overthink things.

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#1000004 - 12/31/18 06:30 PM Re: Ocean mixed stock fisheries? [Re: Keta]
cncfish Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/24/11
Posts: 255
Loc: sultan
Press Release: September 17, 2018

Pacific Salmon Commission Completes Negotiations on New Coast Wide Conservation and Harvest Sharing Agreement.

.....Alaska sustains a 7.5 percent reduction.

this is off of the Alaska fish and game site. so someone is dealing with parts of it....

I also looked up the SE Alaska winter troll numbers for the last few years.... Chinook must be greater than 28 inches long. in looking at the numbers the first few months a lot of the fish are caught (season starts in Sept I think maybe Oct. and runs to march 15th or when quota is caught) then the catches taper off as the season progresses this I think proves Carcassman's theory that any fish over catchable size will get clobbered as soon as it connects with gear. selectively limiting the size of any adults that return.

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#1003195 - 02/11/19 12:03 PM Re: Ocean mixed stock fisheries? [Re: Keta]
Jake Dogfish Online   content
Spawner

Registered: 06/24/00
Posts: 517
Loc: Des Moines
Great point cncfish!
The Troll fisheries from Vancouver north all have 28”size for marketing reasons that may have made sense 30 years ago.
If 20% of adult fish returning to spawn are below the size it would have little impact. If 70% of the fish returning to spawn are below this size then it has a huge impact! We are selectively breeding smaller Chinook every year.
It’s not just the troll fisheries, Sport, Gillnets, Orcas and Pinnipeds all prefer larger fish so that’s what we harvest.

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#1003203 - 02/11/19 01:25 PM Re: Ocean mixed stock fisheries? [Re: Keta]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5206
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
A minimum size in a fishery does not mean those fish are not caught, they just aren't kept. If the Chinook are getting smaller they will lower the minimum size because too many of the sub legals would die.

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#1003204 - 02/11/19 01:32 PM Re: Ocean mixed stock fisheries? [Re: Keta]
Jake Dogfish Online   content
Spawner

Registered: 06/24/00
Posts: 517
Loc: Des Moines
Maybe for gillnets but none of the rest of the the fisheries have 100% mortality.

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#1003211 - 02/11/19 03:14 PM Re: Ocean mixed stock fisheries? [Re: Keta]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5206
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Dead is dead. Even gill nets have released fish that survive.

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#1003227 - 02/11/19 06:14 PM Re: Ocean mixed stock fisheries? [Re: Keta]
PD-5 Offline
Parr

Registered: 02/24/12
Posts: 73
I think before we get too judgemental of our friends to the immediate north, it would be wise to actually look and see what is left of their commercial troll fisheries. That fleet is but a by gone memory save for a few limited "plug only" fisheries openings. We should also look at where the majority of the money from the Alaska commercial fisheries ends up


Washington wins when it comes to earnings from Alaska fishing
By Laine Welch February 27, 2017

The state of Washington continues to be one of the biggest beneficiaries of Alaska’s fishing industry.

According to the United Fishermen of Alaska’s annual Fish Facts, Alaska’s seafood industry puts more people to work than any other private industry, topping 60,000 workers in 2015. Of that, less than half — 27,600 — were Alaska residents.

And while 71 percent of active fishing permit holders call Alaska home, most of the gross earnings go to the state of Washington. Alaska resident fishing permit holders and crew made gross dockside earnings of just over $602 million two years ago. That compares to more than $904 million made by nearly 6,580 Washington-based fishermen.

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#1003239 - 02/11/19 09:58 PM Re: Ocean mixed stock fisheries? [Re: PD-5]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2519
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: PD-5
I think before we get too judgemental of our friends to the immediate north, it would be wise to actually look and see what is left of their commercial troll fisheries. That fleet is but a by gone memory save for a few limited "plug only" fisheries openings. We should also look at where the majority of the money from the Alaska commercial fisheries ends up


Washington wins when it comes to earnings from Alaska fishing
By Laine Welch February 27, 2017

The state of Washington continues to be one of the biggest beneficiaries of Alaska’s fishing industry.

According to the United Fishermen of Alaska’s annual Fish Facts, Alaska’s seafood industry puts more people to work than any other private industry, topping 60,000 workers in 2015. Of that, less than half — 27,600 — were Alaska residents.

And while 71 percent of active fishing permit holders call Alaska home, most of the gross earnings go to the state of Washington. Alaska resident fishing permit holders and crew made gross dockside earnings of just over $602 million two years ago. That compares to more than $904 million made by nearly 6,580 Washington-based fishermen.


In broad terms that has been a reality for generations. The numbers for commercial Chinook harvest might tell a different story with more of the pain from harvest reductions felt by local fishermen and communities.

That said, if NOAA/NMFS would want to flex its muscles they could do so in the AK fishery and that should be a major counter-point to any demand for reduction of NT Chinook harvest in WA waters.

Oh, and don't forget those pesky pinnipeds living the good life. NOAA has reportedly put up a reward of $20K for info on who shot the sea lions found dead on Seattle beaches.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1003247 - 02/12/19 09:19 AM Re: Ocean mixed stock fisheries? [Re: Larry B]
fishbadger Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 1083
Loc: Gig Harbor, WA
Originally Posted By: Larry B
[quote=PD-5]Oh, and don't forget those pesky pinnipeds living the good life. NOAA has reportedly put up a reward of $20K for info on who shot the sea lions found dead on Seattle beaches.


Can I still get the reward if I turn myself in?

fb
_________________________
"Laugh if you want to, it really is kinda funny, cuz the world is a car and you're the crash test dummy"
All Hail, The Devil Makes Three

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#1003254 - 02/12/19 09:56 AM Re: Ocean mixed stock fisheries? [Re: Keta]
fishbadger Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 1083
Loc: Gig Harbor, WA
Hypothetically speaking of course.
_________________________
"Laugh if you want to, it really is kinda funny, cuz the world is a car and you're the crash test dummy"
All Hail, The Devil Makes Three

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