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#1009280 - 05/24/19 12:44 PM Re: When Will PS Crab Seasons Be Announced? [Re: RUNnGUN]
stonefish Online   content
King of the Beach

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 4645
Loc: Carkeek Park
Larry,
Thanks for the explanation.
SF
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#1009309 - 05/24/19 03:19 PM Re: When Will PS Crab Seasons Be Announced? [Re: stonefish]
ned Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 602
Loc: MA 5, 9, 10
Originally Posted By: stonefish
Tribes usually start crabbing in June from what Iíve seen.
SF


Crab region 4 is basically the same as Marine area 10. Tribes are fishing May 22, 23, 24, with a 65 pot per boat limit, no catch limit, 24 hours per day.

In this area, the tribes have caught more than the state share by 5 tons per year. That's each year from 2000 to 2016
( 17 years x 5 tons).

So explain to me why they start in May? part of the 5-ton disparity is that when I go out, all my crab will be 6in or less and I'll have to throw them back for most of July and into August, until they molt again in grow that extra quarter inch.

someone once told me, it's like being at a buffet, but you are the last guy in the line.

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#1009342 - 05/24/19 11:00 PM Re: When Will PS Crab Seasons Be Announced? [Re: RUNnGUN]
Krijack Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: Tacoma
I think its the basic philosphy of letting the older kids look for easter eggs last. You hide the eggs and let the little kids go first. They quickly pick up their share. Then you send out the older kids. They spend the rest of day trying to find whats left. While both ages may have the same amount, its a whole lot harder for the second group to get theirs, especially if the little kids decide to take a little more than their share. Its all about extending opportunitiy.

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#1009355 - 05/25/19 10:13 AM Re: When Will PS Crab Seasons Be Announced? [Re: Krijack]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2697
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Krijack
I think its the basic philosphy of letting the older kids look for easter eggs last. You hide the eggs and let the little kids go first. They quickly pick up their share. Then you send out the older kids. They spend the rest of day trying to find whats left. While both ages may have the same amount, its a whole lot harder for the second group to get theirs, especially if the little kids decide to take a little more than their share. Its all about extending opportunitiy.


I like the egg hunt comparison so let's add some additional information. In reality each of those eggs has a $20 bill inside. Knowing that the representatives of the little kids who will be hunting first go into the egg hunt committee's planning session and convince the group that there will be 1,000 eggs placed by volunteers when in fact they know only 800 will be placed. Based upon the 1,000 number the little kids are allocated 500 and the hunt proceeds with the little kids quickly loading up their booty of at least 500 eggs.

On paper that leaves 500 for the big kids, right? True enough on paper but in fact there are only 300 left for the big kids and very quickly the majority of those eggs are collected and while there may be another 3 hours set aside for the big kids to hunt the fact is that most of them give up early - not because there is no opportunity but because there is no meaningful opportunity.


In short, there needs to be a realistic overall harvest number agreed to among the co-managers which also needs to take into consideration any migration north of the South Puget Sound population crash.



Edited by Larry B (05/25/19 10:14 AM)
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Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

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#1009359 - 05/25/19 10:27 AM Re: When Will PS Crab Seasons Be Announced? [Re: RUNnGUN]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5466
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The crab situation seems ripe for a lawsuit similar, but in the opposite direction, of Hoh V. Baldridge. Prior to that decision, the NI's fished ahead of the Tribes in the ocean, fished on the forecast, and (deliberately) overfished by a small amount some smaller coho stocks commingled with much more abundant ones. Then, the tribes (in many cases the Hoh) would be totally closed or closed early for conservation because the harvest had been taken. Court held that this was not legal.

Boldt even had provisions that prevented the Tribes from corking the NI steelheaders who fished upstream of them. I think the Tribal argument was that the anglers couldn't catch their share so it was foregone opportunity. But, the anglers never even had the opportunity for them so Boldt allowed for allocation closures when the share was taken.

For this to work, we need good forecast numbers, Yeah, sure. But we also need catch reporting and harvest controls. If one side is consistently ahead of the other, they need to be cut back. This requires hands-on management, and huevos.

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#1009373 - 05/25/19 02:26 PM Re: When Will PS Crab Seasons Be Announced? [Re: Carcassman]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2697
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
The crab situation seems ripe for a lawsuit similar, but in the opposite direction, of Hoh V. Baldridge. Prior to that decision, the NI's fished ahead of the Tribes in the ocean, fished on the forecast, and (deliberately) overfished by a small amount some smaller coho stocks commingled with much more abundant ones. Then, the tribes (in many cases the Hoh) would be totally closed or closed early for conservation because the harvest had been taken. Court held that this was not legal.

Boldt even had provisions that prevented the Tribes from corking the NI steelheaders who fished upstream of them. I think the Tribal argument was that the anglers couldn't catch their share so it was foregone opportunity. But, the anglers never even had the opportunity for them so Boldt allowed for allocation closures when the share was taken.

For this to work, we need good forecast numbers, Yeah, sure. But we also need catch reporting and harvest controls. If one side is consistently ahead of the other, they need to be cut back. This requires hands-on management, and huevos.


I do not think that WDFW would want to rock that boat. Hey, three years ago I put in a rule change proposal to have rec seasons start when the first tribal pot goes into the water. Needless to say it didn't get much traction.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1009377 - 05/25/19 03:42 PM Re: When Will PS Crab Seasons Be Announced? [Re: RUNnGUN]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5466
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Not sayin' WDFW would ever do such a thing but the tools are in the tool box.

As has been alluded to, there is way too much money and economic power at stake to rock the boat.

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#1009438 - 05/27/19 12:13 PM Re: When Will PS Crab Seasons Be Announced? [Re: Larry B]
ned Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 602
Loc: MA 5, 9, 10
[quote=Larry B]
- not because there is no opportunity but because there is no meaningful opportunity."

Exactly. Although the State crab season opens in early July, the number of keepers is low after Area 10 has been hammered over a month of commercial and subsistence fishing. The viable sport/rec season meaningful start is more like Mid August, as far as opportunity.


Subsistence
Open: 6:00AM Wednesday, May 22, 2019
Close: 6:00PM Monday, September 30, 2019
SUBSISTENCE LIMIT: Four pots and 6 crabs per ID holder per day unless otherwise noted. Harvesters must obtain a permit from the fisheries office.

WHY 4 POTS TO CATCH 6 CRAB??


Hey WDFW, This is from the Suquamish web site: " If during a season a population is considered reduced or more abundant than projected during the management period, all parties may examine available population data and discuss in-season quota adjustments."

When's this "discussion of in-season quota" going to happen, seeing as the sport share has been the lesser for consecutive 17 years?
( p.s. Similar disparity of 4.1 tons in Crab
Region 2W-Kingston to Pt. Townsend )



Edited by ned (05/27/19 12:15 PM)

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#1009442 - 05/27/19 01:14 PM Re: When Will PS Crab Seasons Be Announced? [Re: RUNnGUN]
Krijack Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1130
Loc: Tacoma
Correction>>>>>>> If during a season, and after the Tribal share is taken, a population is considered reduced or more abundant than projected during the management period, all parties may examine available population data and discuss in-season quota adjustments of the harvest of any remaining harvestable numbers."



Edited by Krijack (05/27/19 01:14 PM)

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#1009443 - 05/27/19 01:16 PM Re: When Will PS Crab Seasons Be Announced? [Re: ned]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2697
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: ned
[quote=Larry B]
- not because there is no opportunity but because there is no meaningful opportunity."

Exactly. Although the State crab season opens in early July, the number of keepers is low after Area 10 has been hammered over a month of commercial and subsistence fishing. The viable sport/rec season meaningful start is more like Mid August, as far as opportunity.


Subsistence
Open: 6:00AM Wednesday, May 22, 2019
Close: 6:00PM Monday, September 30, 2019
SUBSISTENCE LIMIT: Four pots and 6 crabs per ID holder per day unless otherwise noted. Harvesters must obtain a permit from the fisheries office.

WHY 4 POTS TO CATCH 6 CRAB??


Hey WDFW, This is from the Suquamish web site: " If during a season a population is considered reduced or more abundant than projected during the management period, all parties may examine available population data and discuss in-season quota adjustments."

When's this "discussion of in-season quota" going to happen, seeing as the sport share has been the lesser for consecutive 17 years?
( p.s. Similar disparity of 4.1 tons in Crab
Region 2W-Kingston to Pt. Townsend )



My experience is somewhat different in that whatever legal crab are left over by the July rec opener are quickly further depleted (2 weeks?) and that has been happening since the population started on a downward trend after those huge numbers of 6-8 years ago.

FYI - When the current policy was being evaluated by Staff they expressed concerns that all of the State quota in MA 9 would be taken in the summer season meaning no winter season. They also were concerned that in 8-2 there would be some residual poundage for NT commercials but that the poundage would be so low that WDFW might not be able to obtain and analyze that NT commercial harvest fast enough to prevent an over harvest of the State's 50%. I believe the time line for the NT harvest was two weeks. So what has happened?

In neither 8-2 nor 9 has the recreational summer plus winter harvest come close to the State's share with the result being that both areas have had NT commercial harvest. Not only that but the NT commercial seasons have run through January and into February consistently. So how can that be?

Two factors. First, the price of crab has continued to go up both ex vessel and at retail (to include Asian markets) and secondly those long seasons allow the NT commercials to work on crab that are molting and growing into the size allowable for harvest. Those are crab that would have been potentially available for recreational harvest that next summer.

So what can be done? Recalling that 8-1, 8-2 and 9 were identified to be primarily managed for recreational harvest the Commission and Staff could eliminate any NT commercial harvest in those areas. If that is unacceptable they could limit the period of any NT commercial seasons to a few weeks. Or they could simply start the winter rec season immediately after Labor Day and allow the recs to crab during the last of the decent weather for the year. Or some combination thereof.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1009446 - 05/27/19 02:19 PM Re: When Will PS Crab Seasons Be Announced? [Re: RUNnGUN]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5466
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
It was a long time ago, and it was salmon, but WDF had something like 90--95% of the commercial salmon catch in PS (I and NI) within 3 days of the fishery. Not only had, but it was on the computer system and available. With daily crab landings, no reason why information is not available within a couple of days. Generally, the afternoon after a GN fishery (they fished at night) we had enough information to make an informed guess as to what was going on.

The best one, though, was Canada DFO. They put purse seines into the mouth of the Fraser, a place that had never fished but were put there as their "share" was short. The target was 750K. After a few water hauls the boys found the fish and took the 750K in 4 hours. DFO closed it after 4 hours. It can be done, you just have to want to.

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#1009447 - 05/27/19 05:43 PM Re: When Will PS Crab Seasons Be Announced? [Re: Carcassman]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2697
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
It was a long time ago, and it was salmon, but WDF had something like 90--95% of the commercial salmon catch in PS (I and NI) within 3 days of the fishery. Not only had, but it was on the computer system and available. With daily crab landings, no reason why information is not available within a couple of days. Generally, the afternoon after a GN fishery (they fished at night) we had enough information to make an informed guess as to what was going on.

The best one, though, was Canada DFO. They put purse seines into the mouth of the Fraser, a place that had never fished but were put there as their "share" was short. The target was 750K. After a few water hauls the boys found the fish and took the 750K in 4 hours. DFO closed it after 4 hours. It can be done, you just have to want to.


I agree with you. That was their story then and was made a part of the decision making process. The point being that it turned out not to be anywhere near accurate.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1010138 - 06/08/19 07:55 AM Re: When Will PS Crab Seasons Be Announced? [Re: RUNnGUN]
RUNnGUN Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 905
Amazed no season opening announcement yet!
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#1010139 - 06/08/19 08:49 AM Re: When Will PS Crab Seasons Be Announced? [Re: RUNnGUN]
SalishFish Offline
Eyed Egg

Registered: 10/29/06
Posts: 7
Loc: Skagit
Tribal boats apparently had a two day open in 8-1 (North end) as pots were littering Similk surrounds and are all out this morning. I could see lots of sorting and returns where prior years there were skads of females.

Kudos for all the thoughtful comments and information!

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#1010144 - 06/08/19 02:36 PM Re: When Will PS Crab Seasons Be Announced? [Re: RUNnGUN]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2697
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: RUNnGUN
Amazed no season opening announcement yet!


Expect to see the official announcement on Monday.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1010227 - 06/10/19 04:37 PM Re: When Will PS Crab Seasons Be Announced? [Re: RUNnGUN]
slabhunter Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/17/04
Posts: 3639
Loc: Sheltona Beach
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#1010231 - 06/10/19 04:57 PM Re: When Will PS Crab Seasons Be Announced? [Re: slabhunter]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2697
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: slabhunter


The unanticipated wrinkle is the early closure of MA 10; open 4 July through 3 August (only). Reduction of season length is reportedly an effort to pay back 2018 recreational over harvest of State's share in that MA (no NT commercial fishery in MA 10).

Just speculation here....but did MA 10 get hit hard due to crabbing closures last year in MA 11 and 13?
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1010242 - 06/10/19 06:20 PM Re: When Will PS Crab Seasons Be Announced? [Re: RUNnGUN]
Lifter99 Offline
Parr

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 73
Now that Area 11 and 13 are closed to sport crabbing are the tribes and/or NI commercials going to be fishing these areas this year?

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#1010248 - 06/10/19 06:55 PM Re: When Will PS Crab Seasons Be Announced? [Re: Lifter99]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2697
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Lifter99
Now that Area 11 and 13 are closed to sport crabbing are the tribes and/or NI commercials going to be fishing these areas this year?


As I understand it the tribes will not have commercial fisheries in those areas but will have limited ceremonial and subsistence fisheries.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1010264 - 06/11/19 04:25 AM Re: When Will PS Crab Seasons Be Announced? [Re: RUNnGUN]
Lifter99 Offline
Parr

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 73
Thank you Larry. I kind of figured that.

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