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#1005611 - 03/17/19 05:57 AM Re: the Skokomish [Re: Bay wolf]
Sol Duc Offline
April Fool

Registered: 06/18/01
Posts: 16138
Us sporties need some sponsors....like "Jack Daniels" to grease the skids smile

Any sweat lodge companies you guy's know ? beer
_________________________
He who joyfully marches in rank and file has already earned my contempt. He has been given a large brain by mistake, since for him the spinal cord would suffice.

- Albert Einstein.

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#1005622 - 03/17/19 07:21 AM Re: the Skokomish [Re: Krijack]
Great Bender Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 155
Loc: Hood Canal
The primary obstacle in the Skokomish Matter is getting to the truth.

For the better part of four years, we the public have been played by WDFW word speak that begins with open communication, positive speculation and optimism--but then, ultimately--failure. Oddly, even though both sides profess to be open-minded and working in unison, we have yet to be made privy as to why no agreement can been reached.

Afterward, Skokomish Council Leader Guy Miller maintains the Tribe is willing to work toward agreement, while WDFW's Ron Warren professes that anglers returning to the riverbank "are a must, and remain a high priority..."

Rumors are embellished, insights go public, and various points of view are placed forward as to why Co-Managers can't agree in principle...and WDFW plays the same hand of remaining silent.

One such account of what has taken place sights an agreement in principle reached by both the Skokomish Tribe and WDFW, but a "deal breaker" objection to that accord by one (or maybe two) of the other twenty-plus Tribes scuttles the whole process.

Could that possibly be true? I want to discount that as a falsehood.

Yet, I go back to my first sentence. Until the deception, falsehoods, exaggerations, misinterpretations and the like are eliminated, this broken system of Co-Management will continue as a dysfunctional train wreck that only produces more of the same.

Go beyond live streaming select portions of the NOF Meetings and make them open to the public in their entirety. Only then can we eliminate disparity, along with this ongoing waste of time, money and resources.

Above all--return truth and honesty to the forefront.






Edited by Great Bender (03/17/19 07:26 AM)
Edit Reason: spelling

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#1005629 - 03/17/19 10:31 AM Re: the Skokomish [Re: Krijack]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
We do know that the NOF process must be agreed to by all. The Muckleshoots scuttled it a few years ago. So, it is quite possible that some other tribe has a bur against WDFW and won't agree.

Transparency would go a long ways.

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#1005640 - 03/17/19 10:12 PM Re: the Skokomish [Re: Krijack]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Bender nailed it perfect!
Secrecy is the way they avoid accountability and is the bedrock of many the issues inside WDFW. The Commission is culpable in allowing the director(s) a pass in its continuation. Hiding behind Tribal sovereignty and a hundred other excuses to prevent the real truths to come to light. Perhaps, someday we will get tired of being treated like mushrooms, kept in the dark and fed BS. Maybe, just maybe something will happen that will change the rules of the game.
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#1005641 - 03/17/19 11:54 PM Re: the Skokomish [Re: Krijack]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Stop funding them. Money is the ONLY thing that they understand.

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#1005648 - 03/18/19 08:51 AM Re: the Skokomish [Re: Carcassman]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Stop funding them. Money is the ONLY thing that they understand.


I agree and believe we should lobby the Legislature to cut off the General Fund appropriation to the Department to get its attention. At some point even the densest administration will notice where the money comes from and where it doesn't. Continuing to bite the hand that feeds it is a really bad business plan.

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#1005649 - 03/18/19 09:16 AM Re: the Skokomish [Re: Salmo g.]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Stop funding them. Money is the ONLY thing that they understand.


I agree and believe we should lobby the Legislature to cut off the General Fund appropriation to the Department to get its attention. At some point even the densest administration will notice where the money comes from and where it doesn't. Continuing to bite the hand that feeds it is a really bad business plan.


EXCELLENT IDEA!

Carcassman, perhaps you and Salmo g can team up and get a petition started on CHANGE.ORG I have one that is on going for " Open Tribal/WDFW Secret Meetings" . They are very easy to do, and you can reach hundreds of thousands of people. If you want, you can contact me and I can explain it all. I would do it, but I'm really busy with my own campaign.

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#1010082 - 06/07/19 09:00 AM Re: the Skokomish [Re: Great Bender]
Great Bender Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 155
Loc: Hood Canal
[quote=Great Bender]The primary obstacle in the Skokomish Matter is getting to the truth.

For the better part of four years, we the public have been played by WDFW word speak that begins with open communication, positive speculation and optimism--but then, ultimately--failure. Oddly, even though both sides profess to be open-minded and working in unison, we have yet to be made privy as to why no agreement can been reached.

Afterward, Skokomish Council Leader Guy Miller maintains the Tribe is willing to work toward agreement, while WDFW's Ron Warren professes that anglers returning to the riverbank "are a must, and remain a high priority..."

Rumors are embellished, insights go public, and various points of view are placed forward as to why Co-Managers can't agree in principle...and WDFW plays the same hand of remaining silent.

One such account of what has taken place sights an agreement in principle reached by both the Skokomish Tribe and WDFW, but a "deal breaker" objection to that accord by one (or maybe two) of the other twenty-plus Tribes scuttles the whole process.

Could that possibly be true? I want to discount that as a falsehood.

Yet, I go back to my first sentence. Until the deception, falsehoods, exaggerations, misinterpretations and the like are eliminated, this broken system of Co-Management will continue as a dysfunctional train wreck that only produces more of the same.

Go beyond live streaming select portions of the NOF Meetings and make them open to the public in their entirety. Only then can we eliminate disparity, along with this ongoing waste of time, money and resources.

Above all--return truth and honesty to the forefront.




[/quote

Has anyone been provided with some credible info re: the TBD status of Rec fishing on the Skokomish this season? For sure, this is a tiresome topic...but will we ever learn the true issues preventing a clear cut rare opportunity for a sustainable chinook harvest? Limitations/cutbacks throughout Puget Sound, years of surplus at the George Adams hatchery...and talks are allegedly continuing. What the hell is the TRUE story, WDFW?

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#1010105 - 06/07/19 02:30 PM Re: the Skokomish [Re: Krijack]
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1531
Loc: Tacoma
I have to wonder how they can make a decision about take. While there usually is a ton of fish back to the hatchery, is this by design or because the numbers can not be taken? Are any fisheries constrained by impacts on wild fish. I know that the past fisheries required the release of wild fish, and I think that also may be why the season ends fairly early. If the state projects a fishery, they would have to plan on the recs taking a ton of fish in river. This should limit the salt water take some. But, if the fishery is cancelled late in the year, the state can only do an emergency commercial fishery or bypass the opportunity on those fish. Seems like it would really be in the Skok's favor to promise an opening then deny it later on.

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#1010112 - 06/07/19 03:29 PM Re: the Skokomish [Re: Krijack]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Isn't it amazing that there is not one GD citizen who really knows what the F*(K is going on with an entire river!

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#1010114 - 06/07/19 03:58 PM Re: the Skokomish [Re: Great Bender]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Great Bender
The primary obstacle in the Skokomish Matter is getting to the truth.

Above all--return truth and honesty to the forefront.


A bit of distrust of Government is, in my experience, a healthy thing. But what we have going on right now with WDFW is absurd and the Commission is failing in its obligation which is truly unfortunate because I still believe it is a better structure than the former one with policies at the whim of politicians.

As for the Skok what the State received was an opinion from the BIA's legal team. It is not a court order nor other enforceable legal action to which the State could formally contest. So what to do? Frankly, there is no incentive for the tribe to agree - same as for the PNP ramp. Yes, that pesky multi-million dollar boat launch without a ramp. I hope I am not the only one seeing a pattern.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1010115 - 06/07/19 04:00 PM Re: the Skokomish [Re: Krijack]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
Krijack,

My information is not current, but I think Chinook management remains the same. The Skok Tribe would like to harvest more Chinook since the terminal run is so large. NMFS has required them to reduce their harvest rate from what it used to be in order to protect "wild" Skokomish Chinook. However, genetic information has improved to the point that we know that most of the wild Chinook in the Skok are the product of hatchery fish that strayed into the North Fork and spawned. Given that George Adams hatchery has been in operation for over 50 years, and a high harvest rate was applied to ALL of Hood Canal for Chinook, coho, and chum, it's not a stretch to guess that all the wild fish were extirpated long ago. That's not to say there isn't any wild genetic material remaining from endemic runs if their timing was earlier or later than the main hatchery runs, but there isn't much.

The Skok Tribe wants the best of both worlds. They have introduced spring Chinook from the Skagit. They are hatchery fish now, but they want to develop a wild run that goes up the NF and is passed upstream of the Cushman dams. They also want to develop a later timed fall Chinook run that mimics the run timing of the historical Skok fall Chinook, which were later than the George Adams Green River hatchery stock. They want those to also be wild Chinook eventually. If that works then they could go back to the wipe-out fishery for Geo Adams timed Chinook. Of course there would be mixed stock problems with that later timed fall Chinook because they would overlap with the coho and chum, which the Tribe wants to harvest at a high rate because most of them are hatchery fish.

My contention is that WDFW should disregard the Skok Tribe's claim of river ownership based on a court decision long ago (I have a copy of it here somewhere), and open the usual salmon fishing season that they used to. Then let the Tribe take WDFW to court and see if they get the old ruling over-turned. Acting like the Tribe already won demonstrates that WDFW doesn't give a hoot about non-treaty recreational salmon fishing in freshwater.

Sg

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#1010126 - 06/07/19 06:00 PM Re: the Skokomish [Re: Salmo g.]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.


My contention is that WDFW should disregard the Skok Tribe's claim of river ownership based on a court decision long ago (I have a copy of it here somewhere), and open the usual salmon fishing season that they used to. Then let the Tribe take WDFW to court and see if they get the old ruling over-turned. Acting like the Tribe already won demonstrates that WDFW doesn't give a hoot about non-treaty recreational salmon fishing in freshwater.

Sg


That approach has been suggested - maybe by you - and would put the burden on the tribes and/or BIA to take action. I like that approach especially when the State can show that it has made efforts to resolve the matter. Unfortunately that willingness to negotiate can be construed as admitting the State has no case and undermines its position meaning nothing happens.

One needs to remember that the Bureau of Indian Affairs is substantially run by Indians and whatever they may generate in terms of opinions benefiting tribal interests over those of non-tribal citizens needs to be viewed with skepticism.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

Top
#1010133 - 06/07/19 10:09 PM Re: the Skokomish [Re: Krijack]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
There is always the option of an organized “Fish In”. I outlined that earlier in the string.

Now I’m sure that a local news crew would attend, and, heck, might even get a crew from one of the tv stations to show.

All it would take is about 12 guys, fishing poles, no hooks.
Coordinate with the local chapter of whatever clubs are active there,
Have a bull horn and designate a single spokesperson. Someone with a good command of English and is well educated on the issue.

Put the word out and get it done.

There is near zero chance that anyone who peacefully gathers will be arrested. Believe me, the Skokes nor the State want that kind of publicity.

I bet if someone coordinated this and posted it on this board there would be a hundred guys show up!
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

Top
#1010136 - 06/08/19 07:42 AM Re: the Skokomish [Re: Krijack]
Great Bender Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 155
Loc: Hood Canal
The Wolf is spot on w/this.

I want to reach out to the Kitsap Poggie Club, as it was over two years ago they hosted Mike Grossman and Ron Warren to address their assembled membership re: the return of NT Rec fishing to the Skokomish banks--and were told it was a "WDFW high priority."

A good number of Hood Canal tideland owners have cooperated w/the Tribe for years to share the oyster harvest on their respective properties--I am one of them. The backbone of the Boldt Decision is 50/50 sharing of the fisheries resource...and all of us involved operate within the spirit of, and adherence to that principle.

Kitsap Poggie Club members (as well as others)--rise to the call. We would be breaking no mores other than tribal restrictions, and fishing for State hatchery fish w/o baits or hooks...which amounts to a most harmless and peaceful demonstration of what we consider our rights.

If WDFW won't do whats necessary to bring this about--then its up to us.


Edited by Great Bender (06/08/19 07:45 AM)
Edit Reason: diction

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#1010351 - 06/11/19 09:12 PM Re: the Skokomish [Re: Krijack]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
So, what’s happening? Is ANYBODY gonna scream at the top of their lungs “I’M MAD AS HELL AND I AIN’T GONNA TAKE IT ANYMORE”?
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

Top
#1010352 - 06/11/19 09:19 PM Re: the Skokomish [Re: Bay wolf]
Tug 3 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 260
Loc: Tumwater
Just getting re-wound. I have some things to say publicly to WDFW leadership. Really interested in the lawsuit brought by The Advocacy. It might be a profound decision - maybe not. Proud of those guys for taking on WDFW.

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