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#1013498 - 09/06/19 08:56 AM Re: Hot off the press [Re: eswan]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
Man the noochie was something back in Tom Hammock's day.

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#1013499 - 09/06/19 09:05 AM Re: Hot off the press [Re: eswan]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 5074
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...

This is another "follow up" to the "should have been hatchery. What many "younger people and thousands of others never knew", there were "springers" in the Wynoochee, not a large run but "for those in the know", some ended up as dinners and smoked fish.

A Wynoochee hatchery, could have been a perfect scenario for raising "hatchery springers", but there was/is a WDFW element that believed those springers were "dip in" fish, yea right, dip in 30 miles up the Wynoochee River, above the canyon....year after year.

RW, said at a meeting some years back.....there will never be "hatchery springers" raised in the Chehalis basin......will be good when he is gone!!!!
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#1013505 - 09/06/19 11:00 AM Re: Hot off the press [Re: eswan]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
Nice to see that the Quinault Tribe has finally given its OK to a plan for the Wynoochee mitigation funds. All the other parties to the hydropower license agreed to a plan nearly 10 years ago, with the exception of Quinault. The plan still has to be approved by FERC, but that is a fairly sure thing. The FERC license was issued in 1987, and I think they will be happy to get this thing done after carrying it on the license books for 30 years.

Apparently the proposed production is over and above existing hatchery production, but isn't it interesting that the lion's share of the Wynoochee mitigation will be reared and released from Satsop? Does that even pass the red face or chuckle tests?

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#1013506 - 09/06/19 11:24 AM Re: Hot off the press [Re: eswan]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
When was passing the Red Face or Chuckle tests a WDFW priority? Been a while.

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#1013508 - 09/06/19 11:43 AM Re: Hot off the press [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4394
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
The 400k Satsop Coho ARE NOT part of the required mitigation but the 100k Coho at Aberdeen Lake are along with the Steelhead. The 400k Satsop Coho are something new not explained.

Do not know if all parties have signed off. They are Tacoma Power, WDFW, City of Aberdeen, Quinault Nation, and the Chehalis Tribe. If I was the Chehalis Tribe I sure as hell would not sign off if the 400k did not come out of the Skookumchuck so they got part of the pie. Again the 400k at Bingham are not part of the required mitigation but a extra benefit thrown in for …. ( fill in the blanks )


Edited by Rivrguy (09/06/19 11:48 AM)
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1013514 - 09/06/19 01:06 PM Re: Hot off the press [Re: DrifterWA]
blenny Offline
Fry

Registered: 12/19/18
Posts: 27
Originally Posted By: DrifterWA

Here I go.…...The Wynoochee salmon and steelhead suffer because the current hatchery is and has been to small, has warm water problems, this hatchery should be moved closer to the base of the Wynoochee Dam.

During the late 70's and early 80's, there was lots of talk about a hatchery below the Wynoochee Dam, there was even talk of a double water exit from the dam itself....1 pipe able to draw water from the lower part of the dam and another pipe higher up to draw warmer water that could be used to "speed of the growth of smolt to larger size".

Currently, Native steelhead, have to go to the trap below the Dam, then trucked to Lake Aberdeen hatchery to be used for brood stock, then as smolt they are trucked to different areas and released.....wouldn't it be better, to have returning fish actually go right to a "new hatchery", processed, raise to smolt size, then released right from the hatchery.

I've been told, over and over, that salmon don't take well to "trucking", either as adults or as smolt but this continues to be done, Again, how nice to not have to try and brood stock fish, let fish do what fish do...move up a river, go to a hatchery, have good water to be raised in, then just release the smolt, right from the raceways.

Heaven forbid, with good clean water, at the proper temperature, disease problems reduced, minimum human handling there might be salmon and steelhead at increased levels......QIN has it right, Wynoochee needs a hatchery, closer to the Dam,,,,WDFW shame on you for sitting on your hands for all these years, doing BS fish handling on the Wynoochee River. Current WDFW fish management has problems....change is needed!!!!!


the issue with this is $$$... we can do things better but to improve our hatcheries takes a lot of investment. this is both a governmental issue in failing to "sell" the idea and a public issue "no taxes, too expensive, etc". This is the same reason the sewer systems in many cities built decades ago that are leaking poo into the water table aren't being replaced. imagine being the politician who tries to spearhead the improvement of sewage infrastructure: everyone hates you because of traffic disruption from construction, costs will probably go over budget due to unforseen issues with a 100 year old system and you might not be in office by the time the work is complete and the public wont notice a perfectly working sewer system to boot because you only notice when its going bad. why would a policy maker, dept head or politician undergo long term investment into public goods under these conditions?

yes we could do better, yes we could improve things but how can you do it in a current climate where half the population will have an aneurysm at the very mention of budget increases and potential tax hikes. I'm 100% on board with what you're saying but its not 100% the WDFW's fault they have to take the lowest common denominator solution- the public, policy makers and politicians we elect also have a ton to do with the position we are currently in.

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#1013531 - 09/06/19 03:47 PM Re: Hot off the press [Re: eswan]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Remember that the primary source of funds for WDFW is from license sales, taxes on sport hunting and fishing equipment, and mitigation. I don't think they are as broke as they claim but priorities are skewed so that the license holders pay for the commercials and so on.

Their whole funding structure needs retooling. Perhaps an Initiative that would mandate that all funds collected from the hunters/fishers (license, DJ/PR) can be used to directly benefit them. This would include some level of habitat protection needed to produce animals, but the cost of producing fish for commercial harvest (I and NI), ESA responsibilities, etc. would come from GF as those actions have statewide benefits and statewide causes.

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#1013553 - 09/07/19 08:47 AM Re: Hot off the press [Re: Rivrguy]
Chinook 1 Offline
Fry

Registered: 03/14/18
Posts: 37
Originally Posted By: Rivrguy
The dam was federal flood control with mitigation for Steelhead of 170k a year. Then the power generation was added and funding for additional mitigation was added for Coho and additional Steelhead with Tacoma City Light putting the funding into an account that they did not have any control over. To put it simply the power company met the obligations of funding with WDFW being the entity that was charged with the responsibility of producing the required additional mitigation production.

TCL has zip zero just plain nothing to do with the failure to produce the mitigation fish, 100% WDFW for all these years. Comparing Wynoochee Mitigation to the Cowlitz is a bit miss guided to say the least.

So the dam owners get a free pass.


Edited by Chinook 1 (09/07/19 09:13 AM)

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#1013556 - 09/07/19 09:10 AM Re: Hot off the press [Re: Carcassman]
Chinook 1 Offline
Fry

Registered: 03/14/18
Posts: 37
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Remember that the primary source of funds for WDFW is from license sales, taxes on sport hunting and fishing equipment, and mitigation. I don't think they are as broke as they claim but priorities are skewed so that the license holders pay for the commercials and so on.

Their whole funding structure needs retooling. Perhaps an Initiative that would mandate that all funds collected from the hunters/fishers (license, DJ/PR) can be used to directly benefit them. This would include some level of habitat protection needed to produce animals, but the cost of producing fish for commercial harvest (I and NI), ESA responsibilities, etc. would come from GF as those actions have statewide benefits and statewide causes.


License sale only make up 28% of WDFW budget. The non fishing and hunting public make up the others 72%. Just remember it was good old Christine Gregoire that shifted WDFW funds in the General fund.


Edited by Chinook 1 (09/07/19 09:12 AM)

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#1013559 - 09/07/19 09:30 AM Re: Hot off the press [Re: Chinook 1]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
Originally Posted By: Chinook 1
Originally Posted By: Rivrguy
The dam was federal flood control with mitigation for Steelhead of 170k a year. Then the power generation was added and funding for additional mitigation was added for Coho and additional Steelhead with Tacoma City Light putting the funding into an account that they did not have any control over. To put it simply the power company met the obligations of funding with WDFW being the entity that was charged with the responsibility of producing the required additional mitigation production.

TCL has zip zero just plain nothing to do with the failure to produce the mitigation fish, 100% WDFW for all these years. Comparing Wynoochee Mitigation to the Cowlitz is a bit miss guided to say the least.

So the dam owners get a free pass.


Incorrect. Tacoma and Aberdeen put up the money decades ago. WDFW didn't come up with a plan to use the money that was approved by all the parties to the FERC licensing proceeding until now. The Quinault Tribe held up the plan until it satisfied their demands. Interestingly, I have to wonder if the parties that agreed to previous iterations of the plan now agree with the present one. And if they don't, then what? Is Quinault's the only approval that WDFW concerns itself with?

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#1013560 - 09/07/19 09:37 AM Re: Hot off the press [Re: Chinook 1]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4394
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
No free pass as they paid up front and the account has built up to 2.4 or more as I recall. I realize that many blame the dam owners but the original dam mitigation was paid up front and so did Tacoma Power for the hydro power modifications. Department of Game used a huge portion of the original mitigation to rebuild Lake Aberdeen Hatchery but guaranteed to produce the required Steelhead with its own funds when the remaining funds were used. Now that are joined as one agency WDF&W has the responsibility for the original Steelhead mitigation.

The funds in question are the additional mitigation for the power generation only. The failure to do the mitigation is not Tacoma Powers responsibility as they have zero control over the mitigation funds, only WDFW can access the funds for mitigation that Tacoma Power put into the account to produce the mitigation.

Tacoma Power, WDFW, City of Aberdeen, Quinault Nation, and the Chehalis Tribe all have to sign off on the plan. Working with the local communities around 1993 WDF&W produced a plan that was supposed to be submitted to the above mentioned entities. They did not do that but variations of that plan surfaced over the years in conversations but again went no place.

As to FERC the only time that came up was before power generation and was about fish passage down stream. Eicher screens and other things but in the end nothing came of it.


Edited by Rivrguy (09/07/19 09:55 AM)
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1013570 - 09/07/19 11:25 AM Re: Hot off the press [Re: Chinook 1]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
They would like you to believe that license sales only make up a small fraction. It is quite possible that 26% is the value of license sales. But, DJ and PR are Federal taxes on hunting and fishing gear that is returned to the states based on license sales. The money is used at a 3:1 match, so for every $1 of license money used, the Feds kick in $3; all from sporties. The mitigation funds come from the Feds (Mitchell Act) and dam operators (TCL, Pacific Corp, PUDs) which is money that comes from them from ratepayers.

WDFW also gets a modest amount of dedicated funds from various vanity/specialized license plates. Finally, there is some GF that comes from the run of the mill disinterested taxpayer. It sure ain't 75% of the total budget.

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#1013572 - 09/07/19 11:33 AM Re: Hot off the press [Re: eswan]
SpoonFed Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 01/29/19
Posts: 1519
So, in short. We have a crooked agency controlling our recourses and wildlife.
I would really like to see what goes on behind closed doors nowadays with the department. Its probably to embarrassing to watch.

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