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#1016414 - 10/30/19 03:33 PM Nisqually Hatchery Chinook Returns
stonefish Offline
King of the Beach

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 4673
Loc: Carkeek Park
Anyone know where you can get the fall chinook hatchery return numbers for the Nisqually?

I believe the hatchery is funded by TPU and run by the Nisqually tribe, but the return numbers aren't posted on the WDFW escapement report or on TPU's website from what I can find.
Thanks
SF
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#1016419 - 10/30/19 04:24 PM Re: Nisqually Hatchery Chinook Returns [Re: stonefish]
Krijack Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Tacoma
Good luck. They do not post them anywhere that I know. I am not so sure they give them to the state either. I was trying to get some numbers from the State regarding Coho, but, despite insisting the Tribe had provided the numbers, told me I had to get them from the Tribe. Since I have the email promising that they did get the numbers, I have pondered filing a public of information request asking for them. I have a feeling they don't have them, but they would need them if there was going to be a fair division of the resource. I think when I pointed that out to the person from the WDFW it was just easier to lie and say they had the numbers than admit the Tribe was in complete control.


Edited by Krijack (10/30/19 04:26 PM)

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#1016429 - 10/30/19 11:48 PM Re: Nisqually Hatchery Chinook Returns [Re: stonefish]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2743
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Does the tribe provide operational data (production/returns) to TPU?
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Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

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#1016432 - 10/31/19 08:28 AM Re: Nisqually Hatchery Chinook Returns [Re: stonefish]
stonefish Offline
King of the Beach

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 4673
Loc: Carkeek Park
Larry,
I'm not sure. I'll give a call to TPU and see what I can find out.
You'd think somewhere along the line they'd give production / return info to WDFW, but that might not be the case.
I'll also drop the WDFW fish program an email to see what their reply is to hatchery escapement.
SF
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Founding Member - 2019 Pink Plague Opposition Party
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#1016437 - 10/31/19 10:42 AM Re: Nisqually Hatchery Chinook Returns [Re: stonefish]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2743
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: stonefish
Larry,
I'm not sure. I'll give a call to TPU and see what I can find out.
You'd think somewhere along the line they'd give production / return info to WDFW, but that might not be the case.
I'll also drop the WDFW fish program an email to see what their reply is to hatchery escapement.
SF


I would certainly expect that if TPU is providing funding they would require information on how that money is being spent and its effectiveness. TPU is subject to the State's Public Records Act: https://www.mytpu.org/about-tpu/public-records-request/.

Good luck!
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1016447 - 10/31/19 02:39 PM Re: Nisqually Hatchery Chinook Returns [Re: stonefish]
OncyT Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 443
Originally Posted By: stonefish
Anyone know where you can get the fall chinook hatchery return numbers for the Nisqually?

I believe the hatchery is funded by TPU and run by the Nisqually tribe, but the return numbers aren't posted on the WDFW escapement report or on TPU's website from what I can find.
Thanks
SF

I'll see what I can find out. Do you have any more questions other than just the return numbers? (just so I don't have to make subsequent calls)

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#1016448 - 10/31/19 03:58 PM Re: Nisqually Hatchery Chinook Returns [Re: stonefish]
stonefish Offline
King of the Beach

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 4673
Loc: Carkeek Park
How about since krijack is interested in Nisqually coho numbers as well, lets say the coho and fall chinook escapement numbers for 2017, 2018 and 2019 for the Clear Creek hatchery.

Thanks for the assist.
SF
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Go Dawgs!
Founding Member - 2019 Pink Plague Opposition Party
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#1016450 - 10/31/19 05:08 PM Re: Nisqually Hatchery Chinook Returns [Re: stonefish]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2743
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: stonefish
How about since krijack is interested in Nisqually coho numbers as well, lets say the coho and fall chinook escapement numbers for 2017, 2018 and 2019 for the Clear Creek hatchery.

Thanks for the assist.
SF


And is that information available on the WDFW website? And, if so, where??

Or, alternately, on the TPU website?

Editorially - It shouldn't be this difficult.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1016455 - 10/31/19 07:51 PM Re: Nisqually Hatchery Chinook Returns [Re: Larry B]
OncyT Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 443
Originally Posted By: Larry B
Originally Posted By: stonefish
How about since krijack is interested in Nisqually coho numbers as well, lets say the coho and fall chinook escapement numbers for 2017, 2018 and 2019 for the Clear Creek hatchery.

Thanks for the assist.
SF


And is that information available on the WDFW website? And, if so, where??

Or, alternately, on the TPU website?

Editorially - It shouldn't be this difficult.

I don't believe that it is available on the WDFW website. I don't believe that it is available on the TPU website. Editorially - you are probably correct.

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#1016456 - 10/31/19 08:00 PM Re: Nisqually Hatchery Chinook Returns [Re: stonefish]
OncyT Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 443
Originally Posted By: stonefish
How about since krijack is interested in Nisqually coho numbers as well, lets say the coho and fall chinook escapement numbers for 2017, 2018 and 2019 for the Clear Creek hatchery.

Thanks for the assist.
SF

I'll see if I can get both fall Chinook and coho escapement numbers. Since there are two tribal hatcheries on the Nisqually, I suspect escapement numbers from both Clear Creek hatchery and Kalama Creek hatchery would be better than just Clear Creek, so that is what I will try to get.

Escapement numbers for fall Chinook should be close to finalized for 2019, but may not be exact by the end of the season. Coho escapement numbers for 2019 should be no where close to final so I won't bother with that one.

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#1016457 - 11/01/19 07:23 AM Re: Nisqually Hatchery Chinook Returns [Re: stonefish]
OncyT Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 443
Originally Posted By: stonefish
How about since krijack is interested in Nisqually coho numbers as well, lets say the coho and fall chinook escapement numbers for 2017, 2018 and 2019 for the Clear Creek hatchery.

Thanks for the assist.
SF

I took a closer look at krijack's post and it appears that he is interested in more than just hatchery escapement figures. It seems that he is interested in numbers that might be used to ensure that there "is fair division of the resource." Since there is no sharing requirement for just Nisqually runs, getting the information that he wants would require run reconstruction information (escapement and catch) for all populations in the South Puget Sound region of origin (everything south of the Stilly-Sno). I am not willing to try to track that all down, so I think I will pass on providing just a small part of it. In other words, I'll try to get the fall Chinook hatchery escapement information for you. That is all.

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#1016465 - 11/01/19 11:35 AM Re: Nisqually Hatchery Chinook Returns [Re: stonefish]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5523
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Oncy brings up a good point about sharing that is often overlooked. Simply put, the 50:50 (Boldt) or whatever else is agreed to (for salmon) is total catch in WA by Management Areas. These are (or were, anyway) Nooksack-Samish, Skagit, Stilly-Snohomish, South Sound, Hood Canal, and Straits. All stocks of a species grouped. So, while the Skagit River chnook might be split 50:50, Nisqually may be 60:40 and be balanced by Green being 45:55.

It is also all fisheries, the commercial, recreational, ceremonial, subsistence, take home are all added in and are part of the sharing.

The above is as it was when I was involved; I really don't know if the Court Orders are being followed now or if they have all agreed to something different.

Also, this applied to salmon; steelhead had some very different aspects given the nature of the fish and fisheries (almost entirely in-river).

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#1016467 - 11/01/19 12:15 PM Re: Nisqually Hatchery Chinook Returns [Re: stonefish]
Krijack Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Tacoma
Your right. Simply put, I had asked for the number of Hatchery Coho taken by the tribe during the 2016 season. That year the river had been closed for Coho with no provisions for opening it up. I heard some internet sources that the tribe had been netting for several weeks. These sources were confident that it was taking place. On the 20th of October that year I sent out an email to the Tribe asking if they had a current count for the hatchery and for them to dispel the rumors I was hearing. I believe I sent one to the State too, but I can not find one in my records. In any case, that email was at 2:30 on Thursday. On Friday the tribe issued a notification of an emergency opening starting on Sunday. I never did receive a response to my email, so later that year I sent out a email to the Biologist on that river asking how many fish were taken by the tribe. I can not find all the correspondence, but do know that they responded by telling me to ask the tribe. As a courtesy I did, but of course I got no response. I directly asked if the numbers were being shared as there would be no way to set up futures seasons without that knowledge. Or at least not ones that were fair. I was told that the numbers were being shared, but looking back I probably should have been more clear and assertive. I plan on sending out some more requests and see if I can get the information.

What is clear, is that the tribe is being given exclusive access to the Chum run on the Nisqually. Because of the run timing, most non-treaty commercial harvest should be over before they start to come in. If you have ever fished for them, you know they are a unique strain that actually enter the river in good condition and are fairly good table fair. This year, like last year, the tribe has scheduled fishing while we are left without a planned season and waiting to see how many show up in the nets (if they share) or how many show up on the spawning beds (they monitor a side stream and make estimates off how many they count). Last year we did not get to fish. From what I have been told for the biologist, it appears the tribe took between 6000 and 7000 and that escapement was barely met. As a result of this thread I have sent out an email asking, more clearly, for the 2016 coho results and 2019 final harvest numbers. The sports take on the river has been running between 200 and 300 fish, on those years we get to fish. Escapement is 27000. So on a normal year the recreational side takes less than 1 fish for every 20 or more taken by the tribe. Yet , the tribes are given a full season and we are sitting on the sidelines. Seeing the state is supposedly monitoring the tribal take, they could easily end the season if the numbers do not come in. The recreational take would still be a fraction of the tribal take and likely be statistically insignificant. .

In the end, it is not much of an opportunity and probably not worth fighting for, but there is a precedent being set that does not look good.


Edited by Krijack (11/01/19 12:18 PM)

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#1016469 - 11/01/19 12:49 PM Re: Nisqually Hatchery Chinook Returns [Re: Carcassman]
OncyT Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 443

I just dug out an old copy of the (then) Puget Sound Salmon Management Plan (PSSMP) and found some stuff about releasing data that I had forgotten. This might address krijack's concern about folks at WDFW not releasing tribal information. Here is what the 1985 PSSMP says: "Disclosure of fisheries information by a party to another party is not a waiver of confidentiality nor is it deemed to be a release of such information for purposes other than fisheries management planning and management under this plan. No party may voluntarily release information or data received from another party without that party's consent, whether to another party or an outside agency, including agencies of the United States government." So since krijack's request to WDFW was not for the purpose of fisheries management under the PSSMP, WDFW can not release information provided by the Nisqually Tribe. At least that is what the 1985 version of the PSSMP says. Like Carcassman, I cannot say if that portion of the PSSMP has been modified since my involvement in this stuff, but even if it has, I suspect that confidentiality of information is still something that the parties have addressed.

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#1016472 - 11/01/19 01:21 PM Re: Nisqually Hatchery Chinook Returns [Re: stonefish]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5523
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The Nisqually Winter chum are an interesting management situation. For allocation purposes, all South Sound are combined. So, Summer, Fall, and Winter are combined into one allocation unit. The harvest is then split.

By agreement, the Nisqually Tribe was accorded the whole Indian share. No other Tribe fished for them, at least directed. The non-Indian share of the Winters was shifted to the Falls. This was done when there was essentially no recreational fishery for chum. On paper, this meant that the NI side took more than 50% of the Falls but this was made up by the lack of fishery on the Winters.

Remember, again, that salmon allocation is not fishery by fishery. It is the cumulative catch of that stock. Chinook and coho recs lose out in-river because that share is taken in marine waters. In the case of the Nisqually Winter Chum, the vast majority of that allocations is shifted to the Fall chum net seasons.


The state could shift only part of the harvestable Winters, reserving some for a recreational fishery. I think that concerns with steelhead by catch have made the state leery of making that shift.

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#1016485 - 11/01/19 06:38 PM Re: Nisqually Hatchery Chinook Returns [Re: stonefish]
Krijack Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Tacoma
That all and good Carcassman, but its not what I am being told. And, if I am confused a bit, maybe it's because of emails responses like the ones below. Rather include the entire emails, I am just including the parts that raise concern.


From 2017 from the department in response to my questions about the season that was set.

Our first priority in the Nisqually right now is getting fish on the spawning grounds. Our escapement goal this year was 18,000 fish. The number of live fish on the spawning grounds counted yesterday should get us there. The sport opening is going out today and will open the Nisqually to fishing from the military tank crossing bridge to the mouth. Daily limit two adult salmon. For winter chum, greater than 90% of the non-treaty harvest takes place in freshwater so our objective for the sportfishing community is not to achieve 50% of the harvest but rather secure meaningful opportunity on a sustainable fishery. In other words, I see the currency as “days on the water”.


And from 2018
Thanks for reaching out. This year is much like last year where we had a small run forecasted to the Nisqually River relative to the escapement goal. Similar to last year the state, with support from the public was uncomfortable taking part in a directed fishery targeting winter chum in hopes of meeting escapement. Unfortunately the tribe did not follow our lead in this case and chose to initiate a winter chum fishery. Similar to last year and what I said in email correspondence below, our first priority in the Nisqually right now is getting fish on the spawning grounds. Our escapement goal is 27,000 and we plan to open a fishery once we are confident the goal will be met.

I believe I also read that this year they will be monitoring both fish on the beds and tribal take and will open if they believe there are enough fish.


So.......

The reason they are giving is conservation and nothing else. Second, they somehow or another changed from an escapement goal of 18000 to 27000 in one year. Third, they state that they have a goal of providing opportunity. None of this points to the fish being traded away. I would guess that 100 to 300 chum in question are also statistically unimportant in the scheme of the entire south sound run. If it is just conservation numbers, then ok, but why let the tribe take 6000 or 7000 and not let us take any. Remember, 90% of the winter run is fresh water, so the non treaty salt water take would be around 30 fish at tops. Given every tribe from Neah Bay to the Squaxins appear to chase chum, it is likely they are taking more than that incidentially.

In the end, I am just a bit confused how they can not find a few hundred for the recreational fisherman, since they say that they are trying to. Remember, they claim we are being held of for conservation reasons.

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#1016487 - 11/01/19 07:17 PM Re: Nisqually Hatchery Chinook Returns [Re: Krijack]
OncyT Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/06/08
Posts: 443
Originally Posted By: Krijack
Second, they somehow or another changed from an escapement goal of 18000 to 27000 in one year.

Escapement goals for chum salmon differ depending on whether or not it is a pink year. They are not mysteriously changed from year to year.

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#1016489 - 11/01/19 07:34 PM Re: Nisqually Hatchery Chinook Returns [Re: stonefish]
Krijack Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1150
Loc: Tacoma
Thanks, I saw the difference today and could not figure it out. Like I said, I was a bit confused.

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#1016490 - 11/01/19 08:03 PM Re: Nisqually Hatchery Chinook Returns [Re: stonefish]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5523
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
What I outlined was going on in the 70s, 80s, and 90s (at least) when WDF intended to achieve a 50:50 allocation per Boldt and subsequent Supreme Court reviews. Obviously, they must have other goals and targets now. And it would appear that a FW rec fishery is not one of them.

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#1016506 - 11/02/19 10:19 AM Re: Nisqually Hatchery Chinook Returns [Re: stonefish]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 12570
The state and tribal co-managers are on a trajectory to end freshwater sportfishing of anadromous fish in Puget Sound tributaries. Ask WDFW to swear that they aren't.

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