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#1019861 - 01/08/20 04:49 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Salmo g.]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Any Steelhead HGMP work being done on any of the remaining PS rivers? If the WDFW won't get off it's ass, why don't the affected Tribes spearhead the HGMP's? It appears some things are in the works on the Puyallup system. The new remodeled Clark's Crk. facility at Maplewood Springs is nearly complete. Will it raise Steelhead for release in the Puyallup? Public boat launch access facilities are planned with one complete already. I have heard rumors of a Tribal hatchery facility planned on South Prairie Crk. or one of the tributaries. Seems like lots of activity setting up for a change, at least on the Puyallup. I'm optimistic!


Edited by RUNnGUN (01/08/20 04:52 PM)
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#1019863 - 01/08/20 05:08 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Salmo g.]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
28 - 30" is about right for a 2-salt steelhead and a might small for 3-salt.


Agreed.... a length of 28-30" = 8-10# cookie cutter 2-salt steel.
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#1019864 - 01/08/20 05:11 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
At one of the Pacific Coast Steelhead meetings it seemed obvious that the only successful steelhead hatchery programs were the bigger ones, I think in excess of 100K. These 10K programs could be from 3 females; they probably aren't but that is not a lot of parents.

Would be pretty easy to look at returns versus releases but I am not sure that in any one year you had a wide range for plants. Need that to control for the ocean.

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#1019879 - 01/08/20 10:14 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
As I recall from the extensive steelhead age sampling done in the 1980s and 1990s for early winter hatchery steelhead those fish in the 28 to 30 inch range were in the middle of the over-lap between two and three salt fish. That is roughly half would be two salts and half three salts on the average given average growth rates.

It seems in recent years like many of our salmonids sizes have been smaller than the long term average so it may be likely that the majority of those 28 to 30 inch fish are 3-salts.

Curt

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#1019885 - 01/09/20 08:50 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Curt, if that's the case, it's gonna' take an old, old steelhead to reach 40" these days. That's gonna' be a tremendous blow to the fragile egos of steelheaders. Oh my!

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#1019892 - 01/09/20 09:12 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
A colleague from ADFG, since retired, was looking at salmon growth in the Alaska Gyre. Conventional wisdom is that the decline in size of adult salmon (and increase in a few stocks) was the result of fishing. Depending on the species, it was either hook and line or net. This was the situation for decades.

What he was seeing, and was scaring him, was that size at age was declining, as mentioned above. This is more likely ascribed to food supply, or at least that is what appears to be happening in AK.

Further, they were seeing that the salmon have been forced to with to lower calorie dense foods. As such, a full stomach provides less energy. This seems to hit when a large adult heads to the spawning grounds, encounters warmer water (raises metabolic rate just to survive) and the essentially starves as it can't take in enough calories. Like a human trying to live on celery. So, the big adults just disappear.

Being weakened, they may be easier prey for whales or they may just sink to the bottom and feed the crabs.

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#1019904 - 01/09/20 11:41 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Carcassman]
cohoangler Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 12/29/99
Posts: 1611
Loc: Vancouver, Washington
Carcass - The hypothesis you outline rests on the concept that maturity in Pacific salmon/steelhead is related to the amount of time spent in the ocean, rather than achieving a specific body size.

If achieving maturity is time-dependent, and food is limited, they would exhibit lower body size at maturity, which is what we’re seeing, and which you have articulated.

However, if Pacific salmon depend on achieving a specific body size before they mature, their maturity would be delayed rather than being stunted.

The problem with delayed maturity is the probability of additional mortality from either fishing (troll fishery) or predation (orca). So the effect would be indirect. That is, if maturity is delayed, the fish need to spend more time in the ocean which means they are subject to additional mortality (predation/fishing). That means the only fish returning are those that don’t spend much time in the ocean. The returns would be composed primarily of smaller, younger adults because the older, larger fish don’t survive long enough to spawn. After all, nobody throws back a 30lb Chinook hoping it will grow to 50lbs, even though it might.

Either way, the result is the same – lower size at maturity, albeit indirectly, in this case.

I’m not saying your hypothesis is incorrect. I’m just saying there’s another way of explaining what we’re seeing.


Edited by cohoangler (01/09/20 11:42 AM)

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#1019908 - 01/09/20 12:01 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Pretty sure ot took both overfishing and forage fish reduction (through overharvest and habitat destruction related to dragging the ocean floor) to get Chinook to the pathetic state we've brought them to. The predators certainly aren't making things better these days, but they would be a non-issue if their prey were still anywhere near abundant.

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#1019910 - 01/09/20 12:07 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Salmo g.]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Curt, if that's the case, it's gonna' take an old, old steelhead to reach 40" these days. That's gonna' be a tremendous blow to the fragile egos of steelheaders. Oh my!


Luckily, thanks to Facebook, a steelhead only has to be about 34.37 inches to be a bona fide 20 pounder these days.

Fish on...

Todd
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#1019918 - 01/09/20 02:44 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
In salmonids, age at maturity is fairly genetically controlled. For example, WDG spawned 2-salt summers with 2-salts in order to get more big fish, as the more common was 1-salt, I think. In any case, the big fish were 1 year older. The result was that the got the bigger fish back but fewer because of another year's worth of mortality.

A 7 year old Chinook is gonna be a whole lot bigger than a 3 because of 4 more years of growth. You will remember that these fish evolved in an ecosystem where the high seas harvests did not occur, there was more food.

We now see smaller fish at age, due to lack of food. Not as much to eat. We see fewer old adults because of fisheries and the loss of those old-fish genes as the legacy of past fisheries.

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#1019930 - 01/09/20 08:23 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Todd]
cobble cruiser Offline
~B-F-D~

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 2256
Originally Posted By: Todd
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Curt, if that's the case, it's gonna' take an old, old steelhead to reach 40" these days. That's gonna' be a tremendous blow to the fragile egos of steelheaders. Oh my!


Luckily, thanks to Facebook, a steelhead only has to be about 34.37 inches to be a bona fide 20 pounder these days.

Fish on...

Todd


Whoa... a Todd drive by!

But they couldn't possibly stretch their arms out any longer Todd. wink
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#1019931 - 01/09/20 11:01 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: RUNnGUN]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: RUNnGUN
Any Steelhead HGMP work being done on any of the remaining PS rivers? If the WDFW won't get off it's ass, why don't the affected Tribes spearhead the HGMP's? It appears some things are in the works on the Puyallup system. The new remodeled Clark's Crk. facility at Maplewood Springs is nearly complete. Will it raise Steelhead for release in the Puyallup? Public boat launch access facilities are planned with one complete already. I have heard rumors of a Tribal hatchery facility planned on South Prairie Crk. or one of the tributaries. Seems like lots of activity setting up for a change, at least on the Puyallup. I'm optimistic!



Despite the ribbon cutting publicity which touted improved fisheries for tribal, NT commercial and recreational fishers the reality -at least in the near term - seems to be that the steelhead will be part of a wild fish recovery program as will the 800K Chinook which will be White River springers with neither of those two stocks available to State anglers. Again, if I have my info correct the 200K coho will be adipose fin clipped and available.

Speaking solely to the WR springers the question for NOAA and WDFW might be exactly what is the target number for natural origin returns which must be achieved before State harvest?

Edit:

Here is a link to a pertinent TNT article: https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/community/puyallup-herald/article214979955.html.

And an extracted paragraph:

"Once completed, the project will allow the hatchery to increase its anadromous fish production in the Puyallup River basin by 200,000 steelhead, 300,000 coho and 800,000 spring Chinook salmon, in addition to 50,000 rainbow trout. Currently, the facility’s main focus is the production of rainbow trout."



Edited by Larry B (01/09/20 11:11 PM)
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#1019946 - 01/10/20 10:30 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
Don't worry all.

We will slap in a couple new culverts and that will fix the problem.

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#1019953 - 01/10/20 10:54 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: WDFW X 1 = 0]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: WDFW X 1 = 0
Don't worry all.

We will slap in a couple new culverts and that will fix the problem.


Sure will, especially when you start high up and work down.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1020006 - 01/11/20 01:07 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1531
Loc: Tacoma
Just a thought, but if only a couple steelhead are returning from the current plants, should they still be restricted by NOAA. Seems the odds of any significant straying occurring would be pretty low, when only a handful turn up at the hatchery anyways.

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#1020007 - 01/11/20 07:43 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The only really good "straying" data on steelhead that I know of came from BC in the 70s. They tried a local program, reared in local pond. Released, but fortunately all marked. These fish showed up in streams all through the Straits and on up to the release pond. A very significant number went elsewhere. So, just because these fish are at Dungeness doesn't mean their siblings, at some level, are elsewhere.

Historically, hatchery steelhead were well known for straying, even when the stock used was local.

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#1020010 - 01/11/20 08:21 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Carcassman]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
The only really good "straying" data on steelhead that I know of came from BC in the 70s. They tried a local program, reared in local pond. Released, but fortunately all marked. These fish showed up in streams all through the Straits and on up to the release pond. A very significant number went elsewhere. So, just because these fish are at Dungeness doesn't mean their siblings, at some level, are elsewhere.

Historically, hatchery steelhead were well known for straying, even when the stock used was local.


Steelhead aren't the only species to stray.
https://thefisheriesblog.com/2019/01/28/chinook-in-south-america/
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#1020011 - 01/11/20 09:00 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
We really have no idea how much wild fish stray. Normally, all we mark are hatchery fish. We sample fisheries, we sample hatcheries, we sample spawner index areas.

But, how many streams have a significant number of wild smolts marked? How many streams (rivers/creeks) have traps to observe upstream migration? We sample a miniscule amount of where wild fish go.

Yes, we do know that they home, and home "well". We know, based on how the fry migrate (and what controls the migration) that sockeye have to home very well. The rest of the species not so much, as their freshwater requirements are much more general.

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#1020090 - 01/13/20 12:02 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
fshwithnoeyes Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/20/08
Posts: 299
Loc: Lewis Co via Bham
I once heard that healthy, sustainable steelhead population need two things: a high rate of repeat spawners and a significant contributing resident population. I don't know if that is indeed true, but it makes a lot of sense.
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#1020092 - 01/13/20 12:43 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Both are true. Also needs a lot of spawning salmon (in the sterile PNW water) to feed them.

Another piece of steelhead news reported internally. Ringold lost 50% of its steelhead destined for a 2020 release due to Ich. NOAA gave the approval to release the rest early. Probably not going to be much of fishery for Ringold steelhead in a couple years.

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