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#1019387 - 12/31/19 10:42 AM Winter Steelhead Escapement
Steelheadman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/15/99
Posts: 4214
Loc: Poulsbo, WA,USA
I've been monitoring the escapement reports, https://wdfw.wa.gov/sites/default/files/2019-12/weekly_escapement_12-26-2019.pdf

Looks like the winteruns are in dire straights in Washington this season. Not sure what the returns are for other rivers like the Quinault, etc. Comparing against other years this has to be the worst run. Pretty pathetic.

WHITEHORSE POND Whitehorse Ponds
Hatchery Stock- H
11 - - 11 - - - -- - - 12/23/19
TOKUL CR HATCHERY Tokul Creek Hatchery
Stock- H
14 - 12,600 9 - 5 - -- - - 12/24/19
WALLACE R HATCHERY Wallace River Hatchery
Stock- H
3 - - 3 - - - -- - - 12/23/19
REITER PONDS Reiter Ponds Hatchery
Stock- H
2 - - 2 - - - -- - - 12/16/19
DUNGENESS HATCHERY Dungeness River
Hatchery Stock- H
1 - - 1 - - - -- - - 12/24/19
BOGACHIEL HATCHERY Bogachiel River
Hatchery Stock- H
276 - 202,200 25 - 139 - - - - 112 12/23/19
HUMPTULIPS HATCHERY Humptulips Hatchery
Stock- H
73 - 35,000 50 - 23 - - - - - 12/18/19
FORKS CREEK HATCHERY Forks Creek Hatchery
Stock- H
50 - 55,950 20 - 30 - - - - - 12/23/19
NASELLE HATCHERY Naselle River Hatchery
Stock- H
5 - - 5 - - - -- - - 12/16/19
BEAVER CR HATCHERY Beaver Creek Hatchery
Stock- H
39 - 28,000 22 - 17 - - - - - 12/23/19
KALAMA FALLS HATCHERY Kalama Hatchery StockH 8 - - - - - - -- - 8 12/23/19
LEWIS RIVER HATCHERY Merwin Hatchery StockH - - - 2- - 12/19/19 Shipped to Merwin Hatchery. 3 - - - 1
MERWIN HATCHERY Merwin Hatchery StockH 77 - 57,200 47 - 26 - - 1 - 3 12/23/19
MERWIN DAM FCF Merwin Hatchery StockH - - -7 - 5 - 12/23/19 Shipped to Merwin Hatchery. 78 - - - 3
SKAMANIA HATCHERY Skamania Hatchery
Stock- H
35 - - 6 - - - -- - 29 12/23/19
WHITEHORSE POND Stillaguamish River- W 4 - - - - - 4 -- - - 12/22/19
LK ABERDEEN HATCHERY Wynoochee River- H 3 - - 3 - - - -- - - 12/16/19
FORKS CREEK HATCHERY Willapa River- W 1 - - - - - 1 -- - - 12/17/19
COWLITZ SALMON HATCHERY Lower Cowlitz River- H 3 - - 1 - - -- - 2 - 12/24/19
COWLITZ SALMON HATCHERY Tilton River- W 3 - - - - - 3 -- - - 12/23/19
COWLITZ SALMON HATCHERY Upper Cowlitz River- W 1 - - - - - 1 -- - - 12/23/19
KALAMA FALLS HATCHERY Kalama River- H 8 - - 6 - - - -- - 2 12/23/19
KALAMA FALLS HATCHERY Kalama River- W 4 - - - - - 4 -- - - 12/13/19
MERWIN DAM FCF Lewis River- H 2 - - - - - 2 -- - - 12/21/19
MERWIN DAM FCF Lewis River- W 1 - - - - - 1 -- - - 12/01/19
_________________________
I'd Rather Be Fishing for Summer Steelhead!

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#1019392 - 12/31/19 12:37 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
SpoonFed Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 01/29/19
Posts: 1519
You figure the state would be doing something to solve this problem.

Makes me sad.

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#1019394 - 12/31/19 01:00 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
They are. Getting rid of those pesky hatchery steelhead and their programs.

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#1019397 - 12/31/19 01:10 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
SpoonFed Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 01/29/19
Posts: 1519
We all know that in some areas its too late for that.

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#1019399 - 12/31/19 02:27 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
bushbear Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 4709
Loc: Sequim
No fish added to the Dungeness total. We had 7 coho and one dolly varden/bull trout when we swept the holding pond this morning.

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#1019400 - 12/31/19 03:47 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
RtndSpawner Offline
Parr

Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 54
Loc: Mason
It would be interesting to see the numbers from Oregon and BC. Could this be just a Washington problem or more of a regional concern?

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#1019402 - 12/31/19 04:37 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: RtndSpawner]
cobble cruiser Offline
~B-F-D~

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 2256
Originally Posted By: RtndSpawner
It would be interesting to see the numbers from Oregon and BC. Could this be just a Washington problem or more of a regional concern?


Buddy that fishes the Lower Mainland Rivers in BC said he wanted to come down here because their runs up there were pretty much a no-show so far. I told him not to bother.
_________________________
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#1019404 - 12/31/19 06:45 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
While it is easy to blame the State and especially WDFW for the demise of our steelhead the real blame should be placed squarely on each of our shoulders. We as a State and a society do not value our steelhead (or Chinook and orcas for that matter) enough to demand meaningful actions be taken to reverse the freshwater and marine features that are limiting our fish.

I guess the good news is that with the end of steelhead hatcheries and all fishing in few years there will hardly anyone invested in steelhead to decry our irresponsible actions that allowed our state fish to slip to extinction.

By now it should be clear that for the citizens of this state the motto should be "extinction is now the preferred option".

Happy new year!

Curt

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#1019405 - 12/31/19 07:45 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Hmm, Smalma, back in about 2001 I wrote an article for NW Science. "Washington Salmon. Extinction is not an option but may be the preferred alternative". We knew then..............

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#1019406 - 12/31/19 10:40 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 5074
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Well here is my take on the demise of steelhead.....

Gregoire: Merge state agencies that oversee parks, fish and wildlife, 1994/95

It has been down hill since that time......Upper management of the new agency were from a Salmon background and were pro commercial. Steelhead were a sports fish, just didn't fit in with a commercial philosophy.

NT fishermen couldn't gill net on a sports fish, steelhead, so over the years hatcheries produced more salmon and less steelhead.....got to feed the commercial interests.

Steelhead, might have had a chance....but tribal increased gill netting, hatchery and native steelhead were just a "fish". OP rivers, Hoh, Queets, Quinault, Humptulips, Wynoochee, Satsop all have seen decreased runs of steelhead, native steelhead have suffered the most.

North of Falcon allows sportsmen to have a say during the process on Salmon......THERE ARE NO STATE RUN MEETINGS WHERE SPORTSMEN HAVE ANY SAY ON STEELHEAD.....so the State/WDFW has dropped the ball on steelhead in Washington State......lots of hatchery space for salmon, not so for steelhead......commercial vs. sports.....

Glad I lived and fished before the Bolt Decision, before the merger of Wildlife and salmon, before there was a dam of the Wynoochee....my sons got some good days fishing but my 5 grand kids will not have the same chance...…...grrrrrrrrrrrrrr


Edited by DrifterWA (12/31/19 10:42 PM)
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#1019408 - 01/01/20 12:08 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: DrifterWA]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Originally Posted By: DrifterWA
Well here is my take on the demise of steelhead.....

Gregoire: Merge state agencies that oversee parks, fish and wildlife, 1994/95

It has been down hill since that time......Upper management of the new agency were from a Salmon background and were pro commercial. Steelhead were a sports fish, just didn't fit in with a commercial philosophy.

NT fishermen couldn't gill net on a sports fish, steelhead, so over the years hatcheries produced more salmon and less steelhead.....got to feed the commercial interests.

Steelhead, might have had a chance....but tribal increased gill netting, hatchery and native steelhead were just a "fish". OP rivers, Hoh, Queets, Quinault, Humptulips, Wynoochee, Satsop all have seen decreased runs of steelhead, native steelhead have suffered the most.

North of Falcon allows sportsmen to have a say during the process on Salmon......THERE ARE NO STATE RUN MEETINGS WHERE SPORTSMEN HAVE ANY SAY ON STEELHEAD.....so the State/WDFW has dropped the ball on steelhead in Washington State......lots of hatchery space for salmon, not so for steelhead......commercial vs. sports.....

Glad I lived and fished before the Bolt Decision, before the merger of Wildlife and salmon, before there was a dam of the Wynoochee....my sons got some good days fishing but my 5 grand kids will not have the same chance...…...grrrrrrrrrrrrrr
WORD!
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1019409 - 01/01/20 12:27 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: DrifterWA]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Drifter:

Good observations except Parks remains a separate agency with its own Commission. And being it is now the new year I have taken off my party hat and put on my cynical old guy hat and opine that any input citizens have on NOF is an illusion.

Otherwise, Happy New Year.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1019410 - 01/01/20 07:14 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I think Drifter hit quite a few nails really squarely. While I may see the detail a bit different, the overall view was the same; steelhead (actually anything not a chrome cod) are secondary species at best.

There were a lot of fiscal issues that merger exacerbated.

What needs to be remembered, too, is that the political power of the Tribes has grown while that of the hook and bullet crowd has shrunk. Unfortunately, the resources go down with their users.

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#1019413 - 01/01/20 10:53 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
If these winter storms don't significantly increase the numbers of hatchery steelhead showing up at hatchery racks, none of the hatcheries in the entire system is going to meet broodstock requirements this season. This has got to be the worst returns every by a very long country mile. A complete cycle like this and the Chambers Creek hatchery steelhead program in WA state is over. I can't believe I'm typing this.

Take a look at Cowlitz, no less. 3 hatchery steelhead and 4 wild steelhead. They are all one stock now, with the Chambers Ck stock eliminated a couple cycles ago. I think over a half million hatchery smolts were released, and the number of wild smolts is a small fraction of that. Yet more wilds have returned so far than have hatchery stock. I know that wilds generally survive at a significantly higher rate than the hatchery smolts, but this is beyond weird to me. I can't figure this out.

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#1019420 - 01/01/20 12:14 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
cobble cruiser Offline
~B-F-D~

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 2256
Thought the Cowlitz fish are later B run type fish that return beginning in late february and peaks around April 1st these days, no?
_________________________
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#1019421 - 01/01/20 12:17 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
cobble cruiser Offline
~B-F-D~

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 2256
Didnt want to say this but for the sake of the conversation, we did quite well 2 weeks ago on the Salmon River (OP) when we had that last big rain. Thought it was encouraging that those later fish were fairly early.
_________________________
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#1019424 - 01/01/20 12:44 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
large edward Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/17/10
Posts: 276
Loc: Brier, WA
I'm trying to have a little new year's optimism here, at least on the Cowlitz.

Last spring I saw more late winter run smolts (3-4") and summer run smolts (5-6") released on the river than I have in years. I'm hoping we are beginning to climb up from the bottom of the steelhead fishing we've seen the last few years on the Cowlitz. Count me among the many who've been slinging mud at WDFW the last couple of years for their previous ineptness running the Blue Creek trout hatchery (pens wide open to bird predation, out of cert fish counters, etc.), but I saw the smolts with my own eyes, and there were lots in the river.

I'm involving myself in the Cowlitz River Advisory Group and seeing a major challenge to improving the relationship between the WDFW, TPU, and the sport fishing public, but just the same, I have reason for optimism when I see the passion by the sporties for restoring some if not all of the runs on that river. It's going to be a long slog, but nothing will happen if we don't make ourselves heard.

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#1019428 - 01/01/20 01:48 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: RtndSpawner]
Steelheadman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/15/99
Posts: 4214
Loc: Poulsbo, WA,USA
Originally Posted By: RtndSpawner
It would be interesting to see the numbers from Oregon and BC. Could this be just a Washington problem or more of a regional concern?


I can't find hatchery escapement reports on the odfw site. I think they only have counts from major dams. You can look at past catch estimates but not sure how accurate because they have a low rate of tag returns. They do have stocking reports. The Alsea had a poor year last year and not many around according to the recreation reports. The rivers I've fished on the central coast and Columbia tribs peak later in winter.
_________________________
I'd Rather Be Fishing for Summer Steelhead!

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#1019431 - 01/01/20 02:29 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Hmm. When I was trapping/marking wild steelhead smolts (winters) they were at east 150mm, more like 180. That's 6-7". Releasing 3-4" smolts is not likely to return many.

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#1019432 - 01/01/20 03:14 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
As I recall after significant experimentation WDFW production guidelines were to produce steelhead smolts that were 6/# - nearly an 8 inch average length. For hatchery production that was the size that consistently produced the best returns. Smaller and larger fish returned at lower rates.

Curt

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#1019436 - 01/01/20 05:06 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
large edward Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/17/10
Posts: 276
Loc: Brier, WA
Yeah, I was making an eyeball estimate from about 20 yards away while standing on my property, but the smolts I saw were nowhere near 8". I do remember being on the north fork of the Lewis in the late 80's when it was getting planted at the Island launch with 8" (maybe larger) smolts. Coincidentally, the fishing on the NFL back in those days was lights out for really nice spring steelhead up to 22# that I personally saw.


Edited by large edward (01/01/20 05:08 PM)

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#1019437 - 01/01/20 05:41 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Smalma]
RtndSpawner Offline
Parr

Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 54
Loc: Mason
Seems I read somewhere recently that WDFW had been experimenting (again) with releasing smolts at a rate different than the directed standard. They tried releasing them earlier or at a smaller size to seeif they could reduce rearing costs. After all, with WDFW it's all about the budget. It seems they prefer cutting services instead of personnel when it comes to money shortages.

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#1019440 - 01/01/20 08:08 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
If the fish need to be a certain size, releasing them smaller means they compete with the wilds. Lloyd Royal did a wholistic review of the WDG steelhead program and concluded, among other things, that the least damage was done to fish rearing in the rivers if the smolts boogied as fast as possible out of the river.

Looks like the wheel may need reinventing.

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#1019441 - 01/01/20 08:30 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Carcassman]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
If the fish need to be a certain size, releasing them smaller means they compete with the wilds. Lloyd Royal did a wholistic review of the WDG steelhead program and concluded, among other things, that the least damage was done to fish rearing in the rivers if the smolts boogied as fast as possible out of the river.

Looks like the wheel may need reinventing.



You do understand that the "old retired guys" corporate memory may be perceived as an impediment to progress, right?
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1019442 - 01/01/20 08:41 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The "old retired guys" were an impediment while working. They do go out of their way to ignore the past.

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#1019444 - 01/01/20 10:12 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Carcassman]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
The "old retired guys" were an impediment while working. They do go out of their way to ignore the past.


And now you (and I) are among that group - not sure if any of us yet qualify as gadflys.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1019447 - 01/01/20 10:34 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
California has no fish... at least according to guide JD Richey, lamenting the horrible steelhead opener for the hordes that descended on the American River today.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=...e=3&theater

BC also bracing for the worst this winter...

https://globalnews.ca/news/6353608/group...2KJkbQ1ZIRq6S2Q
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1019450 - 01/02/20 07:27 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
We're almost there. Couple more years and we won't have to worry about by catch. Won't have to try all those wild brood stocks, segregated stocks, etc. Can use the empty hatchery ponds to produce a fish we can eat and manage; salmon.

Steelhead are just too complex for an auto-pilot management system, too rare (now) to be a credible part of by catch worthy of not fishing on.

Saves time and money. Besides, you only fish steelhead in rivers; they don't contribute to "real" fisheries (ocean).

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#1019451 - 01/02/20 09:24 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
CM -
Isn't the measure of "real" fisheries the man-days of fishing (economic value) produced.

In the mid-1980s on the Snohomish basin season long (3.5 months) WDW creel census estimated that typically showed an average of 60,000 angler trips (did not include the popular CnR season). That is just that one system. To put that in context for the 2017-2018 winter blackmouth seasons WDFW creel census produced the following estimates -

MA 6 effort of 2,220 angler trips
MA 7 effort of 8,789 angler trips
MA 8 effort of 1,325 angler trips
MA 9 effort of 7,954 angler trips
MA 10 effort of 1,836 angler trips

Or a combined estimate for the 5 MAs of just 23,000 trips.

Curt

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#1019452 - 01/02/20 10:16 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: cobble cruiser]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Originally Posted By: cobble cruiser
Thought the Cowlitz fish are later B run type fish that return beginning in late february and peaks around April 1st these days, no?


The Cowlitz winter steelhead are later than the Chambers Ck, but as production of Cowlitz late winters ramped up, more of them returned in Dec. and Jan., with the majority returning Feb. into Apr. The interesting point to me though is more wild steelhead returned than hatchery fish, even though the number of hatchery smolts is about an order of magnitude greater. There's a story in there, but I'm not quite sure what it is.

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#1019453 - 01/02/20 10:20 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I'm not disagreeing Smalma but I would guess that an angler day on the river is way cheaper than an angler day on the salt.

To compare apples to apples, though, what was the MA effort in the 80s, or river effort in '17 and '18? Meaning, if there was a good fishery available in the river, is that fishing additive to the salt?

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#1019455 - 01/02/20 12:08 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
In the very recent "Money for Nothing" thread (http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/forum...tml#Post1019247) I cited information from the 2008 study on the economic value of NT Commercial and Recreational fishing in WA which used 2006 data.

On page 31 of the report it cites for recreational steelhead fishing a net economic value of $51,260,500 and 1,097,000 angler days for an average daily value of $46.72. Again, using the CPI calculator from June 2006 to June 2019 that $46.72 is now $58.98.

On that same page it has data for freshwater salmon fishing of $82,381,300 and 1,763,000 angler days for a daily average of $46.72 and CPI adjustment to $58.98 or the same as for steelhead.

For saltwater salmon fishing $129,419,300 and 2,574,000 angler days for an average daily value of $50.95 adjusted to $64.32. That equates to saltwater salmon fishing being 9% higher in per angler day's economic value than freshwater salmon/steelhead fishing.

So that provides one source of information differentiating the economic value of river fishing versus saltwater fishing for the same salmonids.


Edited by Larry B (01/02/20 12:13 PM)
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1019457 - 01/02/20 12:34 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Salmo g.]
RtndSpawner Offline
Parr

Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 54
Loc: Mason
According to the latest TPU press release there was a grand total of 1 winter run steelhead to the Cowlitz hatchery last week. WDFW has already closed the majority of the eastside rivers to hatchery steelhead retention but why not the rest of the rivers including the OP rivers? Taking into consideration the news from BC nd California there should be plenty of concern to close the rivers until there's enough escapement to meet spawning goals.

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#1019459 - 01/02/20 12:55 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The closures are to protect hatchery fish returning to hatcheries. In systems without hatcheries, there is no need to close for hatchery fish protection. Wild fish are doing just fine, or they would be closed.

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#1019518 - 01/03/20 11:02 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: cobble cruiser]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Originally Posted By: cobble cruiser
Didnt want to say this but for the sake of the conversation, we did quite well 2 weeks ago on the Salmon River (OP) when we had that last big rain. Thought it was encouraging that those later fish were fairly early.


Fished the the upper and lower Salmon yesterday. One day window opportunity. Not bad conditions,dropping hard, high but good color. No bites for 3 of us and heard of none for 20+ guys. Curious how the above tribal area did? Was dumping mud this morning when we left. Gonna be a while with the weather coming. If it doesn't happen after this something is really wrong. Wondering the same thing if OR having return problems? What about tribal net success or failure wherever?
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#1019522 - 01/04/20 09:12 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: RUNnGUN]
cobble cruiser Offline
~B-F-D~

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 2256
Originally Posted By: RUNnGUN
Originally Posted By: cobble cruiser
Didnt want to say this but for the sake of the conversation, we did quite well 2 weeks ago on the Salmon River (OP) when we had that last big rain. Thought it was encouraging that those later fish were fairly early.


Fished the the upper and lower Salmon yesterday. One day window opportunity. Not bad conditions,dropping hard, high but good color. No bites for 3 of us and heard of none for 20+ guys. Curious how the above tribal area did? Was dumping mud this morning when we left. Gonna be a while with the weather coming. If it doesn't happen after this something is really wrong. Wondering the same thing if OR having return problems? What about tribal net success or failure wherever?


Ouch... looks like we lucked into the right window when it was there.
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#1019564 - 01/04/20 11:27 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
These low returns seem unprecedented. I think there is something more going on than impacts of the blob, the drought, pinniped predation, PDO, and ocean acidification. When more wild steelhead than hatchery steelhead return at this time of year, I get the feeling that there is some kind of internal collapse going on with Chambers Ck lineage hatchery steelhead. That slightly better numbers of hatchery steelhead have shown up on the Queets and Quinault might be linked to different broodstock lineage. Those are largely Quinault stock with some Chambers Ck, at least back when they started that program.

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#1019570 - 01/04/20 11:35 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Tug 3 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 260
Loc: Tumwater
Maybe it is more than a river thing. Many years ago it was reported of some high seas steelhead interception somewhere off the Asian coast. Seems like steelhead were being caught in the squid fishery that was regulated by latitude. Too long ago to remember specifics. If climate change has affected steelhead migratory patterns they could be intercepted as by catch (or targeted?).

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#1019579 - 01/04/20 11:52 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Check out the BC steelhead thread

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#1019642 - 01/04/20 02:09 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Carcassman]
Numbqua Offline
Alevin

Registered: 10/29/15
Posts: 15
Wild fish are doing just fine?

Really??

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#1019647 - 01/04/20 02:19 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Carcassman]
Numbqua Offline
Alevin

Registered: 10/29/15
Posts: 15
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
The closures are to protect hatchery fish returning to hatcheries. In systems without hatcheries, there is no need to close for hatchery fish protection. Wild fish are doing just fine, or they would be closed.


Wild steelhead are light years away from doing just fine. In case you haven’t noticed, rivers have not been closed to protect wild steelhead when they absolutely should have been.

You must be a former wdfw employee.

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#1019662 - 01/04/20 03:30 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Tug 3]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Originally Posted By: Tug 3
Maybe it is more than a river thing. Many years ago it was reported of some high seas steelhead interception somewhere off the Asian coast. Seems like steelhead were being caught in the squid fishery that was regulated by latitude. Too long ago to remember specifics. If climate change has affected steelhead migratory patterns they could be intercepted as by catch (or targeted?).


Yes. I remember the High Seas Driftnets was a topic of discussion back in the late 90's I think. Have not heard anything since. Wonder if any evidence of interception was ever found? I'm sure their are more nets out there now more than ever compared to then.
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#1019667 - 01/04/20 03:42 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: ]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Originally Posted By: Hanker
I was there as well. Fishing was just fine if you were in the right place to get movers, salmon river was too high to fish most places.


What's fine? I found some great water to fish even w/ the water up. Did you hook or land any? I did spot 2 in the lower river moving quickly. Nice big fish but failed to get them to take. I have always had trouble getting moving fish to bite very well and w/ as much water as was there, I think any fish around were racing to their dump spot. That's why I'm curious how the tribal meat hole produced or not. Might shed some light on numbers that should be there, but don't seem to be. Also wonder if Cook produced or not?
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#1019694 - 01/04/20 09:35 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: RUNnGUN]
RtndSpawner Offline
Parr

Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 54
Loc: Mason
The truth is that there is no single reason our salmon and steelhead returns are tanking. Steelhead and salmon are supposed to spend anywhere from one to five years in their natal stream with the exception of pinks and chum. Side note is that these are the runs that have been doing better than the rest, until recently.

While in that stream the fry eat plankton and gradually move up to insects and other small invertebrates. I'm no scientist but if the fry have nothing to eat because our streams have become nutrient deserts, they are starting life out at a deficit. It might be interesting to see what lies under the rocks of our streams these days.

So in nature (question if this applies to hatchery fish) these fish remain in their natal streams up to five years for steelhead. So they're starving, does that force them to the estuaries early? From there it's a whole new game as it is a hostile environment of birds and a population of seals and sea lions that have exceeded that natural populations. So, question number one, are there any studies to see how many smolts actually survive this stage?

After that the smolts finally make to the salt. At that point I'll stop because that has become another toxic sludge of hazards lately. Food for though, think about the normally reliable runs of chum that failed to arrive this year. That should be a red flag for what might have happened to our other runs of salmon and steelhead.

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#1019702 - 01/04/20 11:23 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: RUNnGUN]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 5074
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Originally Posted By: RUNnGUN
Originally Posted By: Tug 3
Maybe it is more than a river thing. Many years ago it was reported of some high seas steelhead interception somewhere off the Asian coast. Seems like steelhead were being caught in the squid fishery that was regulated by latitude. Too long ago to remember specifics. If climate change has affected steelhead migratory patterns they could be intercepted as by catch (or targeted?).


Yes. I remember the High Seas Driftnets was a topic of discussion back in the late 90's I think. Have not heard anything since. Wonder if any evidence of interception was ever found? I'm sure their are more nets out there now more than ever compared to then.


I also remember the "high seas netting"....Japanese fishing fleets, nets 25 to 30 MILES in length....steelhead were part of the "by catch"....the years were way before the 90's......mid 70's, time goes by when your having fun.....It was a big deal, Coast Guard, air patrols, way off the Washington coast....it was stopped, at least at that time.
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#1019704 - 01/05/20 07:15 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
cobble cruiser Offline
~B-F-D~

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 2256
Must be that new Verizon 5G fumbling their GPS or maybe bigfoot poaching in the middle of the night....
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#1019706 - 01/05/20 08:08 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: DrifterWA]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Originally Posted By: DrifterWA
Originally Posted By: RUNnGUN
Originally Posted By: Tug 3
Maybe it is more than a river thing. Many years ago it was reported of some high seas steelhead interception somewhere off the Asian coast. Seems like steelhead were being caught in the squid fishery that was regulated by latitude. Too long ago to remember specifics. If climate change has affected steelhead migratory patterns they could be intercepted as by catch (or targeted?).


Yes. I remember the High Seas Driftnets was a topic of discussion back in the late 90's I think. Have not heard anything since. Wonder if any evidence of interception was ever found? I'm sure their are more nets out there now more than ever compared to then.


I also remember the "high seas netting"....Japanese fishing fleets, nets 25 to 30 MILES in length....steelhead were part of the "by catch"....the years were way before the 90's......mid 70's, time goes by when your having fun.....It was a big deal, Coast Guard, air patrols, way off the Washington coast....it was stopped, at least at that time.


That makes more sense. I remember struggling on the Puyallup in the mid to late 70's for fish. Then it turned around in the 80's, peaking in 84-85. Wonder if patrols had anything to do w/ that?


Edited by RUNnGUN (01/05/20 08:09 AM)
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#1019712 - 01/05/20 11:02 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
High seas drift nets were thought to be an issue in the mid-90s. Coast Guard and Sea Cops (privately funded patrol) found some, but it wasn't as big an issue as many thought. WDG/WDW looked into it and based on the available data estimated that high seas interceptions were responsible for a take of up to 3% of steelhead. But it's easier to blame a boogeyman like that than acknowledge that the ocean has become less productive, and that humans may have had something to do with it.

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#1019759 - 01/05/20 05:06 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: RtndSpawner]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Originally Posted By: RtndSpawner
The truth is that there is no single reason our salmon and steelhead returns are tanking. Steelhead and salmon are supposed to spend anywhere from one to five years in their natal stream with the exception of pinks and chum. Side note is that these are the runs that have been doing better than the rest, until recently.

While in that stream the fry eat plankton and gradually move up to insects and other small invertebrates. I'm no scientist but if the fry have nothing to eat because our streams have become nutrient deserts, they are starting life out at a deficit. It might be interesting to see what lies under the rocks of our streams these days.

So in nature (question if this applies to hatchery fish) these fish remain in their natal streams up to five years for steelhead. So they're starving, does that force them to the estuaries early? From there it's a whole new game as it is a hostile environment of birds and a population of seals and sea lions that have exceeded that natural populations. So, question number one, are there any studies to see how many smolts actually survive this stage?

After that the smolts finally make to the salt. At that point I'll stop because that has become another toxic sludge of hazards lately. Food for though, think about the normally reliable runs of chum that failed to arrive this year. That should be a red flag for what might have happened to our other runs of salmon and steelhead.


Fully 80% of steelhead smolts originating from Puget Sound streams NEVER make it to sea.

"LLTK and our partners are especially concerned with the low numbers of juvenile steelhead surviving their brief, two-week journey through the marine waters of Puget Sound on their way to the Pacific Ocean. Fewer than 20% are successfully making the trek!"

https://lltk.org/come-experience-fish-journey-like-no-survive-sound/

Among the smolts originating from the streams of Hood Canal, 50% die at the Hood Canal floating bridge ALONE!

https://lltk.org/project/hood-canal-bridge/
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#1019761 - 01/05/20 05:50 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Smalma]
Salmo_Gairdneri Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/27/05
Posts: 395
Loc: Snohomish
Originally Posted By: Smalma
While it is easy to blame the State and especially WDFW for the demise of our steelhead the real blame should be placed squarely on each of our shoulders. We as a State and a society do not value our steelhead (or Chinook and orcas for that matter) enough to demand meaningful actions be taken to reverse the freshwater and marine features that are limiting our fish.

I guess the good news is that with the end of steelhead hatcheries and all fishing in few years there will hardly anyone invested in steelhead to decry our irresponsible actions that allowed our state fish to slip to extinction.

By now it should be clear that for the citizens of this state the motto should be "extinction is now the preferred option".

Happy new year!

Curt


Unfortunately perfectly stated.

Not tricky to see end of days coming on all anadromous species in the very near future.

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#1019786 - 01/06/20 07:48 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Blu13 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 213
Fished the Salmon Sunday. Not in the tribal area. No fish. Saw 8 to 10 other guys. No fish caught or hooked by anyone. River was up but fishable.

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#1019821 - 01/07/20 06:58 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
bushbear Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 4709
Loc: Sequim
We had two ripe hens and a nice sized male in the Dungeness adult pond this morning. The hens were just over 28" each and the buck was almost 30".

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#1019836 - 01/08/20 07:17 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Bushbear, were scales taken?

I remember an interesting facet of the pink fishery in '79. Lots of fish, not enough for a harvest fishery, but many fly-flingers went out and fished "trout" and "steelhead" and released pinks. Some neat streamers designed by Garrett. I'd say that you hooked about 10 pink and hour. Plus, if you fished more than an hour it was likely that you'd hook a summer-run. Knew a number of folks this happened too.

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#1019841 - 01/08/20 09:19 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Bushbear, how many steelhead in total back to the hatchery now?

Out of a release of how many?

thanks.

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#1019844 - 01/08/20 10:33 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
On The Swing Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 783
Brushbear, in addition to that info could you comment on years past where the run would currently be? How many fish you would have expected by now based on the past
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#1019850 - 01/08/20 12:55 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
bushbear Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 4709
Loc: Sequim
NOAA - Fisheries is allowing the state to release 10,000 steelhead in the Dungeness. The 10K release started after an agreement was reached with WFC in 2016 - see link below. Total count as of yesterday was four fish. In the earlier part of this century, I can remember some returns of 30+ fish, but the past few years my memories are of generally less than 10-15 fish. Would need to dig into the records to see what the average is.

https://www.seattletimes.com/sports/wint...nal-watersheds/

Prior to the lawsuit release numbers were in the 25K+ range.

At one time, the Dungeness was one of the Top 10 steelhead rivers in the state. There has been a hatchery on the river for about 100 years. I saw a report from 1944 that said the hatchery had released 1.5 million spring Chinook, 180,000 steelhead, and 700,000 coho. We're back up to over 800K coho now. The Chinook returns are not good. The state has started up a new captive brood program. The last one ended in about 2000 with returns of around 1200 fish that year. The program ended and the run tanked.

Hopefully, we'll get something going again, but the funding for the Hurd Creek facility re-build/update isn't looking too good. The holding tanks need to be moved above the flood plain and the wells need to be protected. Any river flows above about 2000 cfs put the facility at risk. The river hit 1100 cfs yesterday. I've seen it at 7500 cfs and it isn't pretty. Normal flows for this week, historically, are about 300 cfs. In looking at the data for the past 10 years, to date, the flow has exceeded 2000 cfs 9 years and has gone over 3000 cfs in 6 different years.....so much for being in the "rain shadow". Sure would be nice for the legislature to fund the Hurd Creek project.

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#1019853 - 01/08/20 01:20 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
bushbear Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 4709
Loc: Sequim
Just confirmed - scale samples were taken. Not sure when they'll be read. Hatchery guys are thinking the fish might be three salt. Will post the results when I can get them.

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#1019856 - 01/08/20 02:06 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1531
Loc: Tacoma
Funny isn't it, that the Makah's can dump 174000 into the Sooez river but federal rules limit the Dungeness to 10,000. They are putting more than that into the Sekiu river, which is off reservation and does not have any collection facility. Makes one wonder.


Edited by Krijack (01/08/20 02:15 PM)

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#1019858 - 01/08/20 03:48 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
bushbear Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 4709
Loc: Sequim
Yup

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#1019859 - 01/08/20 03:54 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
28 - 30" is about right for a 2-salt steelhead and a might small for 3-salt.

Sooez is classified as a coastal river, not PS, so not ESA listed. Hence no ESA influenced stocking restriction. Nor WFC lawsuit which pertained to PS rivers with ESA-listed steelhead and therefore in need of NMFS approved HGMPs.

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#1019861 - 01/08/20 04:49 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Salmo g.]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Any Steelhead HGMP work being done on any of the remaining PS rivers? If the WDFW won't get off it's ass, why don't the affected Tribes spearhead the HGMP's? It appears some things are in the works on the Puyallup system. The new remodeled Clark's Crk. facility at Maplewood Springs is nearly complete. Will it raise Steelhead for release in the Puyallup? Public boat launch access facilities are planned with one complete already. I have heard rumors of a Tribal hatchery facility planned on South Prairie Crk. or one of the tributaries. Seems like lots of activity setting up for a change, at least on the Puyallup. I'm optimistic!


Edited by RUNnGUN (01/08/20 04:52 PM)
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#1019863 - 01/08/20 05:08 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Salmo g.]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
28 - 30" is about right for a 2-salt steelhead and a might small for 3-salt.


Agreed.... a length of 28-30" = 8-10# cookie cutter 2-salt steel.
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#1019864 - 01/08/20 05:11 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
At one of the Pacific Coast Steelhead meetings it seemed obvious that the only successful steelhead hatchery programs were the bigger ones, I think in excess of 100K. These 10K programs could be from 3 females; they probably aren't but that is not a lot of parents.

Would be pretty easy to look at returns versus releases but I am not sure that in any one year you had a wide range for plants. Need that to control for the ocean.

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#1019879 - 01/08/20 10:14 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
As I recall from the extensive steelhead age sampling done in the 1980s and 1990s for early winter hatchery steelhead those fish in the 28 to 30 inch range were in the middle of the over-lap between two and three salt fish. That is roughly half would be two salts and half three salts on the average given average growth rates.

It seems in recent years like many of our salmonids sizes have been smaller than the long term average so it may be likely that the majority of those 28 to 30 inch fish are 3-salts.

Curt

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#1019885 - 01/09/20 08:50 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Curt, if that's the case, it's gonna' take an old, old steelhead to reach 40" these days. That's gonna' be a tremendous blow to the fragile egos of steelheaders. Oh my!

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#1019892 - 01/09/20 09:12 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
A colleague from ADFG, since retired, was looking at salmon growth in the Alaska Gyre. Conventional wisdom is that the decline in size of adult salmon (and increase in a few stocks) was the result of fishing. Depending on the species, it was either hook and line or net. This was the situation for decades.

What he was seeing, and was scaring him, was that size at age was declining, as mentioned above. This is more likely ascribed to food supply, or at least that is what appears to be happening in AK.

Further, they were seeing that the salmon have been forced to with to lower calorie dense foods. As such, a full stomach provides less energy. This seems to hit when a large adult heads to the spawning grounds, encounters warmer water (raises metabolic rate just to survive) and the essentially starves as it can't take in enough calories. Like a human trying to live on celery. So, the big adults just disappear.

Being weakened, they may be easier prey for whales or they may just sink to the bottom and feed the crabs.

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#1019904 - 01/09/20 11:41 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Carcassman]
cohoangler Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 12/29/99
Posts: 1611
Loc: Vancouver, Washington
Carcass - The hypothesis you outline rests on the concept that maturity in Pacific salmon/steelhead is related to the amount of time spent in the ocean, rather than achieving a specific body size.

If achieving maturity is time-dependent, and food is limited, they would exhibit lower body size at maturity, which is what we’re seeing, and which you have articulated.

However, if Pacific salmon depend on achieving a specific body size before they mature, their maturity would be delayed rather than being stunted.

The problem with delayed maturity is the probability of additional mortality from either fishing (troll fishery) or predation (orca). So the effect would be indirect. That is, if maturity is delayed, the fish need to spend more time in the ocean which means they are subject to additional mortality (predation/fishing). That means the only fish returning are those that don’t spend much time in the ocean. The returns would be composed primarily of smaller, younger adults because the older, larger fish don’t survive long enough to spawn. After all, nobody throws back a 30lb Chinook hoping it will grow to 50lbs, even though it might.

Either way, the result is the same – lower size at maturity, albeit indirectly, in this case.

I’m not saying your hypothesis is incorrect. I’m just saying there’s another way of explaining what we’re seeing.


Edited by cohoangler (01/09/20 11:42 AM)

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#1019908 - 01/09/20 12:01 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3313
Pretty sure ot took both overfishing and forage fish reduction (through overharvest and habitat destruction related to dragging the ocean floor) to get Chinook to the pathetic state we've brought them to. The predators certainly aren't making things better these days, but they would be a non-issue if their prey were still anywhere near abundant.

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#1019910 - 01/09/20 12:07 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Salmo g.]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Curt, if that's the case, it's gonna' take an old, old steelhead to reach 40" these days. That's gonna' be a tremendous blow to the fragile egos of steelheaders. Oh my!


Luckily, thanks to Facebook, a steelhead only has to be about 34.37 inches to be a bona fide 20 pounder these days.

Fish on...

Todd
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#1019918 - 01/09/20 02:44 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
In salmonids, age at maturity is fairly genetically controlled. For example, WDG spawned 2-salt summers with 2-salts in order to get more big fish, as the more common was 1-salt, I think. In any case, the big fish were 1 year older. The result was that the got the bigger fish back but fewer because of another year's worth of mortality.

A 7 year old Chinook is gonna be a whole lot bigger than a 3 because of 4 more years of growth. You will remember that these fish evolved in an ecosystem where the high seas harvests did not occur, there was more food.

We now see smaller fish at age, due to lack of food. Not as much to eat. We see fewer old adults because of fisheries and the loss of those old-fish genes as the legacy of past fisheries.

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#1019930 - 01/09/20 08:23 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Todd]
cobble cruiser Offline
~B-F-D~

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 2256
Originally Posted By: Todd
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Curt, if that's the case, it's gonna' take an old, old steelhead to reach 40" these days. That's gonna' be a tremendous blow to the fragile egos of steelheaders. Oh my!


Luckily, thanks to Facebook, a steelhead only has to be about 34.37 inches to be a bona fide 20 pounder these days.

Fish on...

Todd


Whoa... a Todd drive by!

But they couldn't possibly stretch their arms out any longer Todd. wink
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#1019931 - 01/09/20 11:01 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: RUNnGUN]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: RUNnGUN
Any Steelhead HGMP work being done on any of the remaining PS rivers? If the WDFW won't get off it's ass, why don't the affected Tribes spearhead the HGMP's? It appears some things are in the works on the Puyallup system. The new remodeled Clark's Crk. facility at Maplewood Springs is nearly complete. Will it raise Steelhead for release in the Puyallup? Public boat launch access facilities are planned with one complete already. I have heard rumors of a Tribal hatchery facility planned on South Prairie Crk. or one of the tributaries. Seems like lots of activity setting up for a change, at least on the Puyallup. I'm optimistic!



Despite the ribbon cutting publicity which touted improved fisheries for tribal, NT commercial and recreational fishers the reality -at least in the near term - seems to be that the steelhead will be part of a wild fish recovery program as will the 800K Chinook which will be White River springers with neither of those two stocks available to State anglers. Again, if I have my info correct the 200K coho will be adipose fin clipped and available.

Speaking solely to the WR springers the question for NOAA and WDFW might be exactly what is the target number for natural origin returns which must be achieved before State harvest?

Edit:

Here is a link to a pertinent TNT article: https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/local/community/puyallup-herald/article214979955.html.

And an extracted paragraph:

"Once completed, the project will allow the hatchery to increase its anadromous fish production in the Puyallup River basin by 200,000 steelhead, 300,000 coho and 800,000 spring Chinook salmon, in addition to 50,000 rainbow trout. Currently, the facility’s main focus is the production of rainbow trout."



Edited by Larry B (01/09/20 11:11 PM)
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#1019946 - 01/10/20 10:30 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
Don't worry all.

We will slap in a couple new culverts and that will fix the problem.

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#1019953 - 01/10/20 10:54 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: WDFW X 1 = 0]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: WDFW X 1 = 0
Don't worry all.

We will slap in a couple new culverts and that will fix the problem.


Sure will, especially when you start high up and work down.
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It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1020006 - 01/11/20 01:07 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1531
Loc: Tacoma
Just a thought, but if only a couple steelhead are returning from the current plants, should they still be restricted by NOAA. Seems the odds of any significant straying occurring would be pretty low, when only a handful turn up at the hatchery anyways.

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#1020007 - 01/11/20 07:43 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The only really good "straying" data on steelhead that I know of came from BC in the 70s. They tried a local program, reared in local pond. Released, but fortunately all marked. These fish showed up in streams all through the Straits and on up to the release pond. A very significant number went elsewhere. So, just because these fish are at Dungeness doesn't mean their siblings, at some level, are elsewhere.

Historically, hatchery steelhead were well known for straying, even when the stock used was local.

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#1020010 - 01/11/20 08:21 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Carcassman]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
The only really good "straying" data on steelhead that I know of came from BC in the 70s. They tried a local program, reared in local pond. Released, but fortunately all marked. These fish showed up in streams all through the Straits and on up to the release pond. A very significant number went elsewhere. So, just because these fish are at Dungeness doesn't mean their siblings, at some level, are elsewhere.

Historically, hatchery steelhead were well known for straying, even when the stock used was local.


Steelhead aren't the only species to stray.
https://thefisheriesblog.com/2019/01/28/chinook-in-south-america/
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#1020011 - 01/11/20 09:00 AM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
We really have no idea how much wild fish stray. Normally, all we mark are hatchery fish. We sample fisheries, we sample hatcheries, we sample spawner index areas.

But, how many streams have a significant number of wild smolts marked? How many streams (rivers/creeks) have traps to observe upstream migration? We sample a miniscule amount of where wild fish go.

Yes, we do know that they home, and home "well". We know, based on how the fry migrate (and what controls the migration) that sockeye have to home very well. The rest of the species not so much, as their freshwater requirements are much more general.

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#1020090 - 01/13/20 12:02 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
fshwithnoeyes Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/20/08
Posts: 299
Loc: Lewis Co via Bham
I once heard that healthy, sustainable steelhead population need two things: a high rate of repeat spawners and a significant contributing resident population. I don't know if that is indeed true, but it makes a lot of sense.
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#1020092 - 01/13/20 12:43 PM Re: Winter Steelhead Escapement [Re: Steelheadman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Both are true. Also needs a lot of spawning salmon (in the sterile PNW water) to feed them.

Another piece of steelhead news reported internally. Ringold lost 50% of its steelhead destined for a 2020 release due to Ich. NOAA gave the approval to release the rest early. Probably not going to be much of fishery for Ringold steelhead in a couple years.

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