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#1020060 - 01/12/20 12:06 PM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 5074
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Sg:

Shouldn't have to go to a Commission meeting for that information....SOMEONE KNOWS right now.

I kid around with Rivrguy all the time....WDFW has 5 days a week to have meetings, make decisions, plot, plan. etc. Many times the "ball" is fully rolling before the public is even aware "something" was/is going to happen.
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#1020062 - 01/12/20 01:24 PM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: DrifterWA]
fish4brains Offline
Dah Rivah Stinkah Pink Mastah

Registered: 08/23/06
Posts: 6866
Loc: zipper
Originally Posted By: DrifterWA
Sg:

WDFW has 5 days a week to have meetings, make decisions, plot, plan. etc. Many times the "ball" is fully rolling before the public is even aware "something" was/is going to happen.



why does this make me think of Ron Warren?
_________________________
...
Propping up an obsolete fishing industry at the expense of sound fisheries management is irresponsible. -Sg



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#1020064 - 01/12/20 01:34 PM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Uhm, maybe because Warren serves as policy advisor to Susewind . . .

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#1020077 - 01/13/20 08:16 AM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
Bitch bitch bitch.

Laughable.

Tacoma Power screwed over the people and failed to mitigate the Cowlitz.
No biggie according to some.

Now the bigger picture is kicking in and people have a problem with it???

Time to call the Wambulance.

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#1020088 - 01/13/20 11:07 AM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
bushbear Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 4709
Loc: Sequim
Jim Georg had a good editorial in this month's issue of The Reel News.

HINDSIGHT IS 20 20

By Jim Goerg
Publishing Editor
THE REEL NEWS

www.thereelnews.com


To WDFW and ODFW:

With the new decade in front of you, you need to look back before
looking forward. In hindsight, the choices and decisions you made in the
past should be clearer for 2020, knowing what happened as a result of those
decisions and obvious broken management of our resources. 20 20 should
provide good vision for year 2020.

Just look at the upside-down doubled-up mismanagement decisions on
Columbia River fisheries. How about the debacle of salmon seasons in Puget
Sound? And then there is the ruinous collapse of recent crabbing seasons.

You know why.

You can't just guestimate fisheries on paper projections when, time after
time, year after year, those guesses go sideways. I question if "science" actually comes into the picture or if it fell completely out of the frame. Shred it for cripes sake!

When predicting and setting fishing seasons in Washington you've
allowed the co-managers to run roughshod over you and dictate who
is going to fish when, where and for what. Maybe their "science" is better
than yours?

And another thing…Where does your salary and funding really come
from? Not the co-managers. Not the commercial fishers nor their lobbyists.
It comes from sports and recreationalists that have their boots in the dirt.

You might want to put your glasses on.

2020 should emphasize the clarity of your past decisions as opposed to
the uncertainty before you made those decisions. If you knew back then what
you know now, wouldn't you rather go back and change your actions? Face it,
there were many, many bad decisions.

Were those decisions worth it?

Hindsight is 20 20. Do something about it. As for me, right now the only
hiney I want in my sight is mismanagement as it walks out the door in 2020.

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#1020089 - 01/13/20 11:26 AM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Back in the 80s, the Fraser sockeye were managers by the IPSFC. Annually, they would meet pre-season and set up a season schedule based on forecasts. In-season, they would meet in person weekly and by phone as often as needed to go over updates. Took a majority to pass regs. Generally, it worked. Until, late one season the adopted schedule conflicted with both conservation and with inter-gear sharing. Because the votes could not be mustered, the "bad" fishery went as scheduled. The next year, the Commission changed the way the did business. Pre-season was "proposed" schedule, IF everything went according to plans and models. But, no fisheries were actually scheduled. Instead, to open, a fishery had to be adopted at a meeting, or it was closed.

WDF was managing salmon primarily that way. There were outside fisheries that, with few exceptions (dealt with by the Courts eventually) left plenty of terminal harvest. The only scheduled fisheries were those needed to update the runs. The rest had to be opened based on there actually being harvestable fish present.

It can be done. It just means that the season (July-December) can be rather high pressure for the managers. It was part of the job.

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#1020179 - 01/15/20 05:41 PM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Salmo g.]
Steelheadman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/15/99
Posts: 4214
Loc: Poulsbo, WA,USA
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Originally Posted By: Steelheadman
Ocean conditions are not the greatest but why do the Quinault, Queets, and Salmon rivers get good returns? Why are NorCal rivers rebounding? There's alot of other factors that affect escapement like preditation of smolts by birds, other fish, marine mammals, etc. Overfishing may have something to do with it. Even hatchery practices like power outages, disease, smolt size. Regulatory affects like the ESA which limits amounts released. Habitat, logging practices, pollution... I'm not as smart on this as most of the biologists or those who work at the hatcheries here on this forum.


Steelheadman,

The Quinault, Queets, and Salmon get significant returns of hatchery salmon and steelhead because the Tribe stocks huge numbers of hatchery fish, using, wait for it - OTHER PEOPLE'S MONEY (OPM). Although coastal rivers tend to get higher SAR (smolt to adult recruits) than either Puget Sound or Columbia River, the rate of return is also down out on the coast due to ocean conditions. If you go upstream on the Quinault or Queets from where the hatchery fish are stocked, you will find that returns of wild salmon and steelhead tend to be chronically under-escaped. So there you have it, the two reasons why those rivers are getting larger returning runsizes of hatchery, not wild, fish. Don't care about wild fish, and having a large amount of OPM to spend.

NorCal rivers are rebounding due to decreases in ocean exploitation of their salmon and gradually improving habitat in basins like the Eel River that was destroyed by massive flooding over 50 years ago in 1964. Also, the salmon and steelhead from those NorCal rivers migrate to and forage in a different area of the ocean than do WA salmon and steelhead.

You don't have to be especially smart to figure this stuff out. Just have information.

Sg


Sg where does one fine information on the Quinault, Queets, and Salmon escapement of hatchery vs native? I'm interested because some of my ancestors lived on the Quinault and used to trade with the tribes. The only information I know is what I read here, on FB, and in the mags. Have never fished these rivers but was told about the Salmon non tribal access. I know there used to be great runs of steelhead on the OP on the Dosewallips, Quilcene, Duckabush in the 70s. They pretty muched stopped planting fish but I don't thing they have great native runs anymore.
_________________________
I'd Rather Be Fishing for Summer Steelhead!

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#1020184 - 01/15/20 06:58 PM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
The Quinault Tribe does spawning escapement surveys on the Quinault and Queets Rivers. I don't know if WDFW does supplemental surveys or just accepts whatever results the Tribe shares. People who have worked for the Tribe swear that technical data is reviewed and doctored by policy members of the Tribe. Even so, wild steelhead escapement numbers on both rivers have averaged well below the state's escapement goal. The Tribe has lower escapement goals.

Since the Tribe marks only a small percentage of the hatchery fish they release, it's not possible to know how many wild fish and how many hatchery fish make up the spawning population. All I really know is that the reported escapements are less than the goals, generally.

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#1020193 - 01/15/20 10:25 PM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7260
Loc: Snohomish, WA
I recently found out the Master Hunter Program is also on the chopping block. Not only do Master Hunters have to pay additional certification & license fees, they also have to perform a certain amount of annual hours providing education, habit restoration & wildlife rehab / monitoring to KEEP their certification. Plus they provide a community service by to helping reduce wildlife conflicts. These are ethical people that want to give back and pay for the right to do so....but nope, not good enough.

So it's not just fish. The WDFW is failing at everything. The budgeted monies they get today would be more than enough if it wasn't for the corruption, bureaucracy and bloat. If they were a private enterprise, they would have gone out of business long ago. Mismanagement 101.
_________________________
“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02

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#1020198 - 01/16/20 06:57 AM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Looking at things through my cynic-colored glasses, note carefully what is proposed for cuts. The popular things, the things that garner press, or programs that are in key Legislative Districts. Key in the sense that the members wield much power.

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#1020201 - 01/16/20 07:43 AM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Carcassman]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 5074
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Looking at things through my cynic-colored glasses, note carefully what is proposed for cuts. The popular things, the things that garner press, or programs that are in key Legislative Districts. Key in the sense that the members wield much power.


I taught my whole career.....During School Levies, school bonds, there was the threat or "no sports, no music, no art etc", for my whole career, when push came to shove...….Levies passed.

WDFW has a image problem..... Sports persons don't like to be lied to, Fee's are increasing.... fish, season length, and in general "opportunity" are declining at a disturbing rate. WDFW is good at "creating new positions" at a time when their budget is in the hole.....shame on WDFW !!!!!
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#1020205 - 01/16/20 09:12 AM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: DrifterWA]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Originally Posted By: DrifterWA
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Looking at things through my cynic-colored glasses, note carefully what is proposed for cuts. The popular things, the things that garner press, or programs that are in key Legislative Districts. Key in the sense that the members wield much power.


I taught my whole career.....During School Levies, school bonds, there was the threat or "no sports, no music, no art etc", for my whole career, when push came to shove...….Levies passed.

WDFW has a image problem..... Sports persons don't like to be lied to, Fee's are increasing.... fish, season length, and in general "opportunity" are declining at a disturbing rate. WDFW is good at "creating new positions" at a time when their budget is in the hole.....shame on WDFW !!!!!


agree

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#1020333 - 01/18/20 02:30 PM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
Geoduck Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/10/02
Posts: 437
WDFW has much more than an image problem. The have a basic competence problem.

The fact that they cannot manage either the put and take lowland trout or willapa bay salmon fisheries tells the whole story on the incompetence. These are simple fisheries management situations and they have failed abysmally on both counts and WDFW owns the entire process.

If they can't do those properly, how can you possibly expect them to do an even mediocre job of managing the much more complex salmon fisheries in PS involving multiple treaties, wild and hatchery populations, rampant habitat degradation, hydro projects, pollution, etc, etc. Same with steelhead.

What a mess.
_________________________
Dig Deep!

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#1020345 - 01/18/20 04:38 PM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Geoduck]
RtndSpawner Offline
Parr

Registered: 12/10/09
Posts: 54
Loc: Mason
It seems that the only thing they manage well is their pay and retirement checks.

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#1020346 - 01/18/20 04:45 PM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: DrifterWA]
large edward Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/17/10
Posts: 276
Loc: Brier, WA
Originally Posted By: DrifterWA
I taught my whole career.....During School Levies, school bonds, there was the threat or "no sports, no music, no art etc", for my whole career, when push came to shove...….Levies passed.

WDFW has a image problem..... Sports persons don't like to be lied to, Fee's are increasing.... fish, season length, and in general "opportunity" are declining at a disturbing rate. WDFW is good at "creating new positions" at a time when their budget is in the hole.....shame on WDFW !!!!!


I almost feel sorry for the lowly WDFW bassturds that will be manning their booth next week at the Puyallup Sporstman's Show. Pretty sure it won't be Susewind or Cunningham there taking the heat while burning more of our $ for nothing.

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#1020353 - 01/18/20 06:46 PM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: large edward]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Originally Posted By: large edward

I almost feel sorry for the lowly WDFW bassturds that will be manning their booth next week at the Puyallup Sporstman's Show. Pretty sure it won't be Susewind or Cunningham there taking the heat while burning more of our $ for nothing.


If they had a “dunk tank” for $1.00 a throw and had Ron Warren sitting on it, WDFW could make up their budget deficit!!
_________________________
"Forgiveness is between them and God. My job is to arrange the meeting."

1Sgt U.S. Army (Ret)

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#1020363 - 01/18/20 09:47 PM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
Brent K Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 08/12/13
Posts: 108
Loc: Arlington, Washington
I would pay good money to throw some pies in the faces of WDFW upper management!

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#1020366 - 01/18/20 09:56 PM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Originally Posted By: Bay wolf
Originally Posted By: large edward

I almost feel sorry for the lowly WDFW bassturds that will be manning their booth next week at the Puyallup Sporstman's Show. Pretty sure it won't be Susewind or Cunningham there taking the heat while burning more of our $ for nothing.


If they had a “dunk tank” for $1.00 a throw and had Ron Warren sitting on it, WDFW could make up their budget deficit!!


Comedy gold, right there!

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