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#1019938 - 01/10/20 09:08 AM Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses?
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1067
Loc: Graham, WA
Like many of you, I have paid attention to the situation of our fisheries in our State for a long time. Iíve participated directly (hundreds of hours of interactions) and in-directly (Campaign to bring more transparency to the process), in hopes of making some small difference for the better to our fisheries.

After some long soul searching, Iím wondering if itís not time I wake up and see the truth? The truth that we will never see our sport revive to any degree, nor see any substantial improvements if things continue as they are.

Drifter brought up some very valid points in his post under the WInter Steelhead Escapment post. Iíd like to add a few more that have a negative impact on the fisheries in general and more specially, any real chance of recovery.

In my opinion, we are circling the drain, and all we can do is post talking points and discussions on boards to each other. True, there are some small victories, but in the larger picture, the Sports Angler is being bulldozed over, and there is very little we can do.

We have State Representatives and Governor who are on the take. By that I mean they sell themselves and their values to the highest contributor. Unfortunately, we all know where a lot of that money comes from.

We have a Department that is bloated with leadership who encourage a culture of secrecy and bend over backwards to appease commercial and tribal interests.

We have a Commission who has become nothing more than a front for the departments attempt to trick the Sports Anglers into thinking we still have some say in the fisheries management decisions.

We have Fish advisory groups, or fish mafia as they are know. They get involved behind the scenes and make deals, to whoís benefit. Sometimes, their participation actually muddies the waters. And who are they supposed to represent, us? The sportsmen did appoint them.

Also, we have a number of groups, organizations, associations and clubs who refuse to work together for what ever reason.

I apologize in advance if I stepped on any ones toes here. I know a lot of guys put in a lot of hard work trying to make a positive difference. I donít mean to take anything away from those efforts. Iím just doing some self soul searching and, at least for me, the future of hope for any substantial recovery is bleak.

Even with all the recent failures, catastrophic miss steps and the abundantly clear message of dismal fish returns there is still no paradigm shift to business as usual. All the signs point to continued demise of the fish we all love, and the citizen sports angler is going to continue to take the hardest hit.

As Einstein stated: ďThe definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.Ē

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#1019940 - 01/10/20 09:18 AM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
snit Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 1653
Loc: Wenatchee, WA
I don't disagree BW. I've had a couple of similar conversations this winter with long-time friends over here on the Eastside. Essentially we commiserated that we got to see "the end of the glory days", and we were lucky to of experienced it.

I booked a trip to the Situk this week...
_________________________
..."the clock looked at me just like the devil in disguise"...

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#1019941 - 01/10/20 09:36 AM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12556
NOF is little more than 6 weeks away... and still no meeting schedule posted on the DFW website.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1019943 - 01/10/20 10:02 AM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12556
Just saw on Fb that Ted's Sports Center is closing its doors end of the month. Sign of the times frown
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1019944 - 01/10/20 10:28 AM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 3561
Time to get out the little violin and play a sad song while the obese lady sings.

It's hatchery fish who are to blame.
LOL

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#1019948 - 01/10/20 10:39 AM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: eyeFISH]
cohoangler Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 12/29/99
Posts: 1530
Loc: Vancouver, Washington
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH
Just saw on Fb that Ted's Sports Center is closing its doors end of the month. Sign of the times frown


This probably won't be the last one either.

I honestly don't know how the fishing/hunting retailers in this area can stay in business. I haven't been to Fisherman's Marine or Sportsman's Warehouse, or Cabela's in a couple years. No need to when fishing is really bad, and there is no incentive to get out. Why buy anything new when there isn't anything around to catch? I'm certainly not wearing out my existing tackle by catching all those fish.

My catch card has exactly one steelhead on it this year. No salmon. No halibut. Nothing else.

And given the dismal run-size forecast for 2020, I may not buy a fishing license this year (April), for the first time in my adult life. I know this hits the retailers hard (and WDFW), but I'm not sure it's worth the effort or expense.




Edited by cohoangler (01/10/20 10:41 AM)
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#1019951 - 01/10/20 10:52 AM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: eyeFISH]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2866
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH
Just saw on Fb that Ted's Sports Center is closing its doors end of the month. Sign of the times frown


He has been threatening to pull the plug for a couple of years and with his departure will there be anyone between John's Sporting Goods in Everett and Outdoor Emporium (the latter being an insane choice given its location)?
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1019955 - 01/10/20 10:59 AM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
stonefish Online   content
King of the Beach

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 4898
Loc: Carkeek Park
Sad to see the small shops disappear.
I hope Mike enjoys his retirement.
SF
_________________________
Go Dawgs!
Founding Member - 2021 Pink Plague Opposition Party
#coholivesmatter
762

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#1019956 - 01/10/20 11:15 AM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
wsu Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 410
I booked a trip to Canada. Not sure if I'll buy a license here. I'm sure I will. I'm also not sure why.

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#1019957 - 01/10/20 11:39 AM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
thaxor Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/07/06
Posts: 391
Loc: Olympia, WA
I bought a used sled in 2018, just bought new tubes for my cataraft. I've fished more the past two years than ever before and although it's been tough going outside of the peak run timings I'm still having a good time.

Ya it's looking a little dismal but I'm enjoying sharing the sport with my wife and friends.

I appreciate the effort you and others have put in BW.

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#1019958 - 01/10/20 01:12 PM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: eyeFISH]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 4679
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH
NOF is little more than 6 weeks away... and still no meeting schedule posted on the DFW website.


MMMMMM, isn't that strange !!!!!!

We(3 of the local GH people) tried to schedule a meeting to "talk about local summer/winter steelhead, access, parking, Ö. things that never get talked about at NOF. Emails from Region 6 but always along the line, "very busy right now".....or in other words "we just don't want to talk about it"

I even tried to get a response during a "recent call in" with Director Susewind, to some of the above topics.....but my comments weren't not mentioned...ÖÖÖ..Wolf problem got the majority of the time.

I realize that many sportsmen love to fish summer/winter steelhead, I also realize that many rivers are completely shut down or numbers of plants are to low.....I can tell when fishing is xhitty in other areas...poor Wynoochee, Satsop, and Humptulips, are "bumper boats, guide and sportsmen" or 15 to 20 guide jet boats on these rivers......grrrrrrrr
_________________________

"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older would take longer"

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#1019960 - 01/10/20 01:30 PM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
NickD90 Online   content
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 6749
Loc: Snohomish, WA
I took off my rose colored glasses years ago. Too much fisheries politics, too many warring user groups, too many complex factors causing the collapse. It's all broken and it will never be fixed. The fish are never coming back.

Call that giving up or being a chicken little - I don't care. The truth hurts and each of us, as individuals, are in different stages of the truth grieving process.

As such, I've rerouted most of my hobby time, money and efforts into other areas.

Will the last fish left in WA, please turn off the river?
_________________________
ďIf the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol HillĒ. Ė FleaFlickr02

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#1019969 - 01/10/20 02:00 PM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1066
Sad state of affairs for sure. Have to be thankful got my kids in on tail end. Never would of thought I would have seen it happen in my lifetime. No grand kids yet but all they will ever see are the photos of years past.
_________________________
ďSmart people only believe half of what they hear. Smarter people know which half to believeĒ

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#1019973 - 01/10/20 02:42 PM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Larry B]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12556
Originally Posted By: Larry B


He has been threatening to pull the plug for a couple of years and with his departure will there be anyone between John's Sporting Goods in Everett and Outdoor Emporium (the latter being an insane choice given its location)?


If the fishing-related retail climate was showing reasonable signs of life, there would be someone stepping in to buy that business in a heartbeat.

But it ain't, so there isn't.

Tough times ahead for our sport.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1019980 - 01/10/20 03:13 PM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: eyeFISH]
ArvidBarker Offline
The Crybaby King

Registered: 04/04/13
Posts: 4118
Loc: Monterey CA
rofl Ohhhhhhh. I'm going to commit suicide!! I'm going to just take up miniature golf!! You guys are now where California was in the 80s. Our fisheries were in utter collapse. Many are still in dire shape.

My local river is the most ravaged steelhhead stream in America. And yet,efforts still continue to save these fish,a dam was removed,spawning in the upper tribs last year was at it's highest level since 2001. Maybe I'm naive , but I for one an excited.

The Klamath dams are set to come down. Didn't the Elwha see improvement within a couple years? Am I just retarded? That's cool if I am but this year I had my best trip ever to the Klamath,my pal and I hooking over 80 fish between us in 3 and a half days fishing. Maybe I have seen the end and watched river returns like the Eel rebound a bit,certain watersheds here that were logged to hell and back start to become healthier.

I ain't buying the doom and gloom. I know it looks dire. But really are you worried that "sporties" are getting the shaft,or the fish? Doesn't seem to be stopping people from having babies. Where are these people going to live? Exactly. Fife.
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yawn...

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#1019986 - 01/10/20 04:30 PM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
ondarvr Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 09/07/05
Posts: 1276
Loc: Spokane WA
Every region has itís own challenges, I think the ones in Washington are substantially different than California.

Iíve seen both the good times and bad times in prior decades, this decline seems to be far worse, with competing interests that can make up their own rules.

I only have so much time and energy left, I could have stayed and continued to fight, with little chance of success, or move on.

I live on the water again, I can catch trout that are as big, or bigger than the cookie cutter 5-6 lb steelhead at my old place, plus many other types of fish. I can do it year round with no special license or catch card unless I go for sturgeon. The Colville Tribe has even been releasing salmon above Grand Coulee dam in hopes of reestablishing a run.

Now that Iím over here I understand more about the wolf issue, right or wrong, it sucks a huge amount of money and time out of WDFW. The pro wolf groups tend to be even better funded from big west side money to tie things up in court. When you have wolves in your yard it gives you different perspective than from 300 miles away.

Over here the tribes have an open season on wolves and plant fish, whatís to argue with.
_________________________
"You may live ondarvr but that doesn't mean you owndarvr." - Fish Prince

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#1019988 - 01/10/20 04:42 PM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
Get Bent Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/13/03
Posts: 208
Loc: Vashon/Grayland
Think Iíll go home tonight and drink a 1/2 gallon of vodka and slit my friggin wrists. Thanks man!

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#1019989 - 01/10/20 04:45 PM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Larry B]
large edward Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/17/10
Posts: 254
Loc: Brier, WA
Originally Posted By: Larry B
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH
Just saw on Fb that Ted's Sports Center is closing its doors end of the month. Sign of the times frown


He has been threatening to pull the plug for a couple of years and with his departure will there be anyone between John's Sporting Goods in Everett and Outdoor Emporium (the latter being an insane choice given its location)?


Mike has been talking about pulling the plug on Ted's for as long as I've known him, and that dates back to the mid-80's. He did tell me, probably 20 years ago, that the bulk of his revenue comes from sales to Alaska. BUT, yes, it sucks as he often had gear the other shops lacked. But I guess you don't need to buy gear unless you just enjoy collecting it.

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#1019992 - 01/10/20 04:57 PM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: ondarvr]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1066
Originally Posted By: ondarvr
Every region has itís own challenges, I think the ones in Washington are substantially different than California.

Iíve seen both the good times and bad times in prior decades, this decline seems to be far worse, with competing interests that can make up their own rules.

I only have so much time and energy left, I could have stayed and continued to fight, with little chance of success, or move on.

I live on the water again, I can catch trout that are as big, or bigger than the cookie cutter 5-6 lb steelhead at my old place, plus many other types of fish. I can do it year round with no special license or catch card unless I go for sturgeon. The Colville Tribe has even been releasing salmon above Grand Coulee dam in hopes of reestablishing a run.

Now that Iím over here I understand more about the wolf issue, right or wrong, it sucks a huge amount of money and time out of WDFW. The pro wolf groups tend to be even better funded from big west side money to tie things up in court. When you have wolves in your yard it gives you different perspective than from 300 miles away.

Over here the tribes have an open season on wolves and plant fish, whatís to argue with.


Shhhh! The net has destroyed many great fisheries!
_________________________
ďSmart people only believe half of what they hear. Smarter people know which half to believeĒ

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#1019993 - 01/10/20 05:11 PM Re: Is It Time to Take Off The Rose Colored Glasses? [Re: Bay wolf]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 12949
Bay wolf,

I have tried most of my life to wear the glasses of objectivity. One of the biggest things that reduces the ability of sport fishermen to affect change is their habit to aggregate every thing that they see as being wrong and blaming WDFW for it. In this world there are things that are within our control and things that aren't. The same applies to WDFW. IMO it's counter-productive to blame WDFW for low ocean survival, as if WDFW or anyone else can do anything about that. Same goes for reducing hatchery production of PS Chinook and steelhead. They are ESA listed, and NMFS calls the shots and has required WDFW to change hatchery stocking numbers.

I think we're better off to criticize WDFW for the things that they have some or total control over. Take NOF for instance. The treaty tribes have the Dept. by the short and curlies and control non-treaty sport fishing in PS and tributaries. So why has it taken until the on-line meeting with Susewind a couple weeks ago for Ron Warren to publicly admit that yes, the tribes do call the shots, and that is likely to continue. This has been going on since 2015 that we know of.

WDFW currently depends on piggy-backing on the BIA ESA Section 7 permit from NMFS for all PS fisheries that potentially affect anadromous fish. As far as I know, WDFW has made no attempt to secure its own separate permit. And has no intention of doing so. What I hope to do is coalesce enough fishermen to pressure the Commission and then the Director to explain why they haven't or aren't trying to get their own permit. And since they aren't then explain to NT sportfishermen how our interest is served and not served by the Dept's. staying the course of piggy-backing on the BIA permit.

Develop truth; develop facts. These are the possible seeds of change. Ranting on the internet and shouting at the Director and the Commissioners isn't.

The Governor, state Senators, and state Representatives do sell their souls. They all do. It's what representative government has been doing since it began, and thus it shall ever be. Our job is to discover which of those souls can be bought by us, literally and or figuratively.

We have to pressure the Governor (probably useless), Commissioners, and Director to walk the talk of transparency. (At the Commission meeting last month in B'ham I asked the Commissioners to instruct the Director to ban the use of the terms "transparent" and "transparency" in all correspondence with constituents until such time as they actually walk that talk. Should have seen Susewind's expression!) Now that they know that we have ways of discovering the truth, I think there exists the possibility of a decrease in direct lying.

This arose from the Stillaguamish River closure that the Department insisted was necessary for Chinook conservation. This is a river that for the last 100 years has been most noted for fly fishing for summer steelhead and sea run cutthroat trout and no detectable impact to Chinook. So it came out that the reason for the closure was due to tribal demand that even the incidental hooking of one Chinook was just too much for them to tolerate and not because of too high of incidental mortality due to sport fishing.

Some in the Dept. are aware that if they are going down the path of closing entire river systems every time a salmon run isn't going to make escapement, then they are going out of business. And I'm doing what I can to drive that point home.

I don't blame the Commission for many of the adverse outcomes. Most of them have very little fisheries expertise, so they rely on Dept. presentations, which sometimes reveal only what they want to, and not the complete story. For the foreseeable future, I think it's our job to inform the Commission when they don't get the full story from the Dept. I do blame the Commission for back tracking on the Columbia River policy to phase out NT gillnetting from teh lower CR. I do blame the Commission for giving the Dept. cover for not complying with the Open Meetings Act when meeting with tribes at NOF. Mind you, I don't want to attend NOF meetings, but it's past time for the Department to include CCTV in the meetings, calling the tribes' bluff of walking out. What's the worst that can happen? WDFW doesn't get to piggy-back on the BIA permit. With all the closures, it's worth taking that hit and then taking the fight to NMFS for a permit (Section 10, most likely).

In all this, there are things we can do and things we can't do. I think there are things on the "can do" list that can effect change that can improve, or at least restore some lost fishing opportunity. It's not going to make the large salmon and steelhead returns of yesteryear suddenly reappear, because that choice is unfortunately not on the menu.

Sg

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