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#1021247 - 02/01/20 10:37 AM Re: Chehalis River [Re: stonefish]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13523
Where is this $700 million coming from? It doesn't grow on fuvking trees! General obligation state bonds get paid back from the state GF. Here is Rep. De Bolt's effort to fleece taxpayers all over the state for the Chehalis. I've said repeatedly there is no way local citizen taxpayers can afford or would ever agree to pay for the Chehalis flood debacle. So they're just going to dip into every taxpayer's pocket a little bit.

And nice as habitat improvement projects might be, the proven most cost effective habitat measure is to not destroy it in the first place. Priority number one in the Chehalis basin should be to stop degrading and destroying fish habitat with flood control projects. It really is that simple, unless you're a flood subsidy seeking land owner/developer.

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#1021250 - 02/01/20 10:46 AM Re: Chehalis River [Re: stonefish]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The other thing to consider is that these projects are "welfare" for folks. I can see the Tribes being happy that $350 might be coming to them for projects. It just might not come without the dam, so.......

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#1027774 - 04/08/20 02:09 PM Re: Chehalis River [Re: stonefish]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
What the dam WON’T do:
• Prevent flood damage for residents throughout the basin
• Generate hydro power for Lewis County residents
• Supply irrigation water to Chehalis basin farmers
• Create new recreational fishing and boating opportunities

What the dam WILL do:
• Require significant logging and costly ongoing debris removal
• Drown six miles of critical salmon and steelhead habitat
• Worsen the Chehalis River’s existing water quality issues
• Increase the risk of future flood damage, if it triggers more floodplain development
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1027785 - 04/09/20 05:49 AM Re: Chehalis River [Re: eyeFISH]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 3314
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH
What the dam WON’T do:
• Prevent flood damage for residents throughout the basin
• Generate hydro power for Lewis County residents
• Supply irrigation water to Chehalis basin farmers
• Create new recreational fishing and boating opportunities

What the dam WILL do:
• Require significant logging and costly ongoing debris removal
• Drown six miles of critical salmon and steelhead habitat
• Worsen the Chehalis River’s existing water quality issues
• Increase the risk of future flood damage, if it triggers more floodplain development


Well, $hit, what are we waiting for? This looks like a slam dunk!

One would think this BS project might be set back a bit by the fact the State and the Feds are going to be severely underfunded when this virus thing is done with us, probably for many years to come. Governments are hemorrhaging unemployment and meanwhile bringing in much less revenue. Our state budget relies heavily on consumer taxes that get cut off severely when people aren't buying a lot of gas, for example. Not a lot of good will come from our present circumstances, but maybe, just maybe, we can quit talking about spending much needed infrastructure dollars on a dam with so little social value for a while.

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#1027787 - 04/09/20 07:11 AM Re: Chehalis River [Re: stonefish]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
How did we try to get out of the Depression? Federally funded projects like Grand Coulee and the CCC. That dam would be on on the list of putting people back to work. The social value would people working.

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#1027788 - 04/09/20 09:24 AM Re: Chehalis River [Re: stonefish]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13523
But there are zero federal dollars available for the Chehalis River dam. And the state can't print its own money. If this dam goes forward, it proves that the state Legislature and Governor are no match for flim-flam artists, con artists, and grifters. Or that they can be bought at aggregate discount pricing.

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#1027789 - 04/09/20 09:36 AM Re: Chehalis River [Re: Carcassman]
Salman Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 806
Makes no sense to build a dam & screw up fish habitat because people are out of work. Lazy to put it nicely. If they really wanted to secure a job how about restoring the rivers that have habitat issues. It would take a long time to figure out what needs to be done as well as accomplishing it. Handouts are temporary, costly, & are just an excuse to be repeated again because they don’t work the first time.
_________________________
Why build in the flood plain?

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#1027795 - 04/09/20 10:34 AM Re: Chehalis River [Re: Salman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4411
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Having no dog in the fight this. If you look at the map developed as to spawning areas it is not a large number impacted. One never knows about unforeseen consequences which are always around. After that this whole thing started due to desire to keep I-5 from being closed again. The flood that hit them last time was more or less a flash flood and a dam will not effect that at all. Lots of rain / short time frame you got trouble.

Take the Satsop 4 in two days in a row you have a big flood but normal. Now if the 4 in come down back to back such as 8 pm to midnight and then midnight to 4 or 5 am you get a bloody 100 year flood. If the river is already at or near flood stage when this happens you get a 10,000 year flood. At to the mix in the 1930's ES ( he lived in the valley ) said that when that flood happened he had 18 in of snow on the ground and everyone was snowbound when the rain hit blowing like hell. He went to bed and when he got up to stoke the fire at daylight none, all gone. That day the water got in his barn which he had never seen before and has not happened since.



Edited by Rivrguy (04/09/20 11:48 AM)
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1027797 - 04/09/20 10:40 AM Re: Chehalis River [Re: Rivrguy]
Salman Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 806
Originally Posted By: Rivrguy

Having no dog in the fight this. If you look at the map developed as to spawning areas it is not the large number impacted. One never knows about unforeseen consequences which are always around. After that this whole thing started due to desire to keep I-5 from being closed again. The flood that hit them last time was more or less a flash flood and a dam will not effect that at all. Lots of rain / short time frame you got trouble.

Take the Satsop 4 in two days in a row you have a big flood but normal. Now if the 4 in come down back to back such as 8 pm to midnight and then midnight to 4 or 5 am you get a bloody 100 year flood. If the river is already at or near flood stage when this happens you get a 10,000 year flood. At to the mix in the 1930's ES ( he lived in the valley ) said that when that flood happened he had 18 in of snow on the ground and everyone was snowbound when the rain hit blowing like hell. He went to bed and when he got up to stoke the fire at daylight none, all gone. That day the water got in his barn which he had never seen before and has not happened since.



That’s good information now if people could comprehend what happens in a situation like that they could use the money for a dam to relocate people to an area which wouldn’t be affected.
_________________________
Why build in the flood plain?

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#1027799 - 04/09/20 11:04 AM Re: Chehalis River [Re: Salman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4411
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
I will add this. The Wynoochee Dam was for flood control and has worked. For the Chehalis in tide water it is Olympic and Upper Basin both at flood stage with wind holding the bay. The dam times it discharges in emergency situations to reduce the Wynoochee flows at high tide in flood events, mostly. Had some difficulties few years back when TP managed to flows but it is my understanding the Army Corp straightened that out. My house is 20 ft from the Chehalis in tidewater so I am well aware of how the river works. Big flood Satsop years back 18 in below floors, the big event upper Chehalis around 8 in below the floors. The big / flood with the windstorm that blew everything apart, 1 in. Full flood and that wind held the river at full flood at slack water ( and I mean the river went slack ) for nearly two hours.

Contrary to common beliefs Mother Nature is not a nice person and you will never be able to plan for everything, she will getcha sooner or later be it a flood, hurricane, volcano, or earthquake. Your never 100% safe.


Edited by Rivrguy (04/09/20 11:05 AM)
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1027800 - 04/09/20 11:53 AM Re: Chehalis River [Re: stonefish]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
Wholly chit!!!

I better put my mask on then.

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#1027813 - 04/09/20 02:52 PM Re: Chehalis River [Re: stonefish]
On The Swing Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 783
On the topic of the 2007 flood that started this whole debate and solidified it in the community, I'm surprised by how often the real data on why the flood was so bad doesn't come up more...and how where the problems the occurred to make it so bad have absolutely zero to do with the project above Pe Ell.

https://www.seattletimes.com/news/slide-damage-in-the-stillman-creek-drainage/

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/mudslide-photo-spurs-look-at-logging-practices/
_________________________
Fish gills are like diesel engines, don't run them out of fuel!

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#1027817 - 04/09/20 04:05 PM Re: Chehalis River [Re: On The Swing]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4411
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Seriously? That the Stillman slide and other logging practices can and do cause damage is a given. Just as urbanization and all human activity does, be it logging is far more visible.

After that there was nothing anywhere in that event that was the drive for the event but rain. Rain in record amounts in a small area ( in geographic terms ) in a short time span. It was simply a world class flash flood that took out everything in its way downstream. Always compare apples with apples, works better.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1027818 - 04/09/20 04:22 PM Re: Chehalis River [Re: Rivrguy]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
Originally Posted By: Rivrguy


After that there was nothing anywhere in that event that was the drive for the event but rain. Rain in record amounts in a small area ( in geographic terms ) in a short time span. It was simply a world class flash flood that took out everything in its way downstream.


And it would have overwhelmed the proposed retention project as well.

JUST SAY NO!

Spend the money to elevate I-5

The liability to further development in the flood plain is entirely up to the potential developers to shoulder themselves. BEWARE, and proceed at your own peril if you are risk averse.

Incentives to help folks relocate should also be considered

Sorry... life ain't fair!
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1027836 - 04/10/20 08:27 AM Re: Chehalis River [Re: stonefish]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
I remember being told by Salmo that this dam would NEVER happen.

I sure hope he is right.

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#1027843 - 04/10/20 08:55 AM Re: Chehalis River [Re: WDFW X 1 = 0]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13523
Originally Posted By: WDFW X 1 = 0
I remember being told by Salmo that this dam would NEVER happen.

I sure hope he is right.


Salmo said that it wouldn't happen as a federal flood control project because under four separate analyses by the Corps of Engineers it doesn't meet the benefit - cost requirements. Lewis Co. representatives have co-opted a few other legislators in Grays Harbor and Thurston Counties and are trying, and succeeding so far, to make this a state project. With no federal cost share (usually 75%), the entire 100% will have to come from the state budget. I hope I am right that enough of the state legislators will see the financial stupidity of the project and never agree to budget for it.

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#1027849 - 04/10/20 09:52 AM Re: Chehalis River [Re: Salmo g.]
DrifterWA Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 5077
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Originally Posted By: WDFW X 1 = 0
I remember being told by Salmo that this dam would NEVER happen.

I sure hope he is right.


I hope I am right that enough of the state legislators will see the financial stupidity of the project and never agree to budget for it.


I agree......

I also agree with Doc's comments, in his post above!!!!!

You build in the flood plain, shame on you.!!!!!!!!


Edited by DrifterWA (04/10/20 09:53 AM)
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#1027850 - 04/10/20 10:11 AM Re: Chehalis River [Re: Salmo g.]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Originally Posted By: WDFW X 1 = 0
I remember being told by Salmo that this dam would NEVER happen.

I sure hope he is right.


Salmo said that it wouldn't happen as a federal flood control project because under four separate analyses by the Corps of Engineers it doesn't meet the benefit - cost requirements. Lewis Co. representatives have co-opted a few other legislators in Grays Harbor and Thurston Counties and are trying, and succeeding so far, to make this a state project. With no federal cost share (usually 75%), the entire 100% will have to come from the state budget. I hope I am right that enough of the state legislators will see the financial stupidity of the project and never agree to budget for it.


You would think our "green" GUV would have squashed this years ago!
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1027851 - 04/10/20 10:34 AM Re: Chehalis River [Re: eyeFISH]
snit Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 1844
Loc: Wenatchee, WA
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH
http://www.chronline.com/news/chehalis-b...e0b17d196c.html
Unfortunately, flood mitigation comes at the direct expense of fish habitat. The 50:50 appropriation would simply cancel itself out and the state will have foolishly wasted $700 million over the course about three chinook life cycles. Forrest's mama said it best... stupid is as stupid does.
The most troubling part of the article?
“I think we could support this bill if we get some language in it, that I don’t need the word guarantee, but that dictates that we split the $700 million as equally as we can with flooding and habitat restoration,” said Harry Pickernell, board member and chairman of the Chehalis Tribe. “That’s the only concern the Chehalis might have.”
Tyson Johnston, representing the Quinault Indian Nation, agreed.


"Time tells all BUT Chehalis and QIN tribes might just hold the "winning hand"."

I don't really have a dog in this fight either, but living in the Upper Columbia Region where it seems Dams were dispensed like candies from a Pez dispenser...Francis & D-rifter bring up excellent points! Every few years, one of the local tribes is in litigation with the "Owner" of a Dam (most Dams over here had multiple investors at one time anyhow) over lost opportunities, habitat degradation, undervalued property adjustments, etc. Even though the majority of the population believes that the issue was already settled ($$$) in the past. It's never settled...ever!

Dimslee will always support his constituents and their hard earned "campaign contributions" from the slot machine/tribal-trail truck stop slush-fund. He's just a politician...
_________________________
..."the clock looked at me just like the devil in disguise"...

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#1027858 - 04/10/20 12:04 PM Re: Chehalis River [Re: stonefish]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
Money talks and BS walks.

Hope you guys are in shape.

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