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#1023331 - 03/02/20 09:43 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Salmo g.]
Sky-Guy Offline
The Tide changed

Registered: 08/31/00
Posts: 7190
Loc: Everett
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Ugh! Reading those declarations makes me want to puke! It is more than apparent that WDFW knows what the Advocacy wants and is doing everything it possibly can to avoid disclosure. It's hard for this citizen to fathom what could possibly be so important to keep secret. To go to such lengths in the legal proceeding, it makes it seem as though WDFW is trying to avoid disclosing videos of the Director and Mr. Warren having sex with animals or some such. There cannot possibly be any fishery or fishing season related documents that merit such extreme secrecy.

It really feels like it is time for the WA Legislature to dissolve the Fish Program within WDFW and start over. From scratch. And in full and complete compliance with the PDA, APA, and OPMA. And while we're at it, include audits of each and every WA funded fish hatchery to reveal both its costs and documented returns to the citizens of WA state so that objective evaluations and decisions can be made whether to continue their operation going forward.


Salmo,

To me it seems obvious why the Dept is going to such lengths to avoid disclosure and transparency.

WDFW and our co managers know that the harvest is not balanced between tribes and Sportsfishing/commercial anywhere close to the Boldt decision and subsequent decisions. ESA further throws a huge wrench in the spokes of attempting fair harvest balance.

If truth comes out, it will be a legal nightmare both the co managers wish to avoid.


That's my working theory. Its a cover up.

_________________________
You know something bad is going to happen when you hear..."Hey, hold my beer and watch this"

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#1023332 - 03/02/20 09:55 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1062
Loc: Graham, WA
It's apparent that the Commission is unwilling to find any resolution to the issues of secrecy. It's time for everyone to got to the Governor and the legislature in mass.

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#1023337 - 03/02/20 10:20 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 12879
Sky Guy,

Harvests are not balanced according to Boldt, but we've known that for years. There are practical reasons for that, and it's legal so long as the co-managers agree to it. And yes, ESA does throw an additional wrench into the salmon management soup; we know that too. So I don't think it's a harvest cover up. I'm sticking with the sex with animals hypothesis until I see clear, cogent, and convincing evidence to the contrary.

Sg

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#1023339 - 03/02/20 10:55 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Salmo g.]
FleaFlickr02 Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/28/09
Posts: 2993
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Sky Guy,

Harvests are not balanced according to Boldt, but we've known that for years. There are practical reasons for that, and it's legal so long as the co-managers agree to it. And yes, ESA does throw an additional wrench into the salmon management soup; we know that too. So I don't think it's a harvest cover up. I'm sticking with the sex with animals hypothesis until I see clear, cogent, and convincing evidence to the contrary.

Sg


Well, they certainly f%#k salmon and steelhead on an annual basis...

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#1023348 - 03/02/20 12:18 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1062
Loc: Graham, WA
It is certainly very appropriate to ask the Commission about what recent efforts they’ve taken to bring real transparency to the process. After all, they have supervisory authority over the Director, so ultimately THEY have the authority to fix this.

Perhaps it’s time they answer the question of “Why aren’t these things fixed”?

Every citizen has the opportunity to address the commission for three minutes at the Commission meeting. And ever citizen who wants change should take the opportunity to tell the Commission.

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#1023352 - 03/02/20 12:36 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Tug 3]
stonefish Offline
King of the Beach

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 4796
Loc: Carkeek Park
Originally Posted By: Tug 3
I agree with what you said, Salmo. What if we went even further. How about changing our statutes/constitution to make the Director of Fish and Wildlife elected? Make it similar to DNR, so that citizen/voters can have direct say on how their natural resources are managed. Too far out? Hell, could it be any worse than it is now?


I think if the director was elected, certain candidates would be getting a lot of campaign funding from special interest groups....
Read that as casino money, just like many other elected offices in this state.
SF
_________________________
Go Dawgs!
Founding Member - 2021 Pink Plague Opposition Party
#coholivesmatter
762

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#1023354 - 03/02/20 12:47 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Great Bender Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 155
Loc: Hood Canal
As this quagmire gets deeper and deeper, there is one factor that continues to baffle me, and likely a good many of you reading this.

With ongoing questionable spending, a budget deficit of approx. some $25mil, significant decreases in license, permit and tag revenues while trying innovative, attractive "extras", a newly hired Director who was told in advance what these cash flow problems entailed...

WHY ARE THE POWERS-THAT-BE BURNING HUGE SUMS OF TAXPAYER REVENUE, AS WELL AS STAKEHOLDER'S TRUST AND CONFIDENCE...

Producing reams of irrelevant paperwork at the going rate of expense to deny us the rights and resources granted to us by law?

I thought misuse of public funds was a crime--so why the hell hasn't the AG's Office intervened on our behalf, according to the word of law? Time for the Governor to pull his head out of his a$$!! Tell your Commissioners to do their job--or step aside.

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#1023357 - 03/02/20 01:03 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5834
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
If you read the depositions you see that the AG's Office provides support and advice to WDFW.

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#1023378 - 03/02/20 03:08 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Carcassman]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2831
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
If you read the depositions you see that the AG's Office provides support and advice to WDFW.


As with any legal advice it is up to the client to make the final determination of action to be taken. In its policy role I think the Commission has dropped the ball on this one big time.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1023405 - 03/02/20 04:42 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Lifter99 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 129
I think it would be very embarassing for the public to see how the tribes bully them in these "secret" meetings. WDFW doesn't want the public to see how weak and feeble they are in these meetings.

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#1023437 - 03/02/20 10:58 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Lifter99]
Brent K Offline
Smolt

Registered: 08/12/13
Posts: 91
Loc: Arlington, Washington
They also might not want us to see how they have been illegaly doing business.

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#1023440 - 03/03/20 07:18 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5834
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The (current) NOF process simply does not meet the legal standards of WA law. This has been known for decades. WDFW had two solutions. The first would be to go to the Leg and craft a law that would make the process actually legal, including necessary public access and participation. The alternative is what they have chosen to too.

If you remember back to the Initiative that banned leg hold/body traps you may recall that (probably accidentally) moles were included in the prohibition (but mice and rats were excluded). Gov Locke asked WDFW to not enforce the law on moles, rather than do the right thing and change the law.

Same here. The Leg is the one who can solve the problem of compliance with the law. As to the cover-ups and such; something else needs doing.

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#1023442 - 03/03/20 07:31 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1062
Loc: Graham, WA
I think that a large part of a solution is public education. Right now, a huge majority of the public (even recreational fishermen) are not aware of how salmon harvest is managed, let alone the details of the process to include the public prohibition and consequential misleadings.

On way to educate and draw attention to this is through the use of social media. The messaging needs to be circulating in the public.

The other way is the use of the public meetings, to include the Commission meetings. At every meeting there needs to be a group of citizens who bring the issue up, over and over again. Especially at the Commission meetings. Even if it's not on the agenda. Since the Commission meetings ARE live-streamed, for every person speaking to the Commission, there are hundreds if not thousands who are seeing and hearing the testimony.

Although the Commission has been unwilling to correct the Departments behavior, they ultimately are the responsible party. They delegate the negotiation authority to the Department, yet they retain the supervisory control over the Director.

There needs to be unending heat put on the Commission. They must go to bed each night hearing the word Transparency, and wake up with the words accountability.

To date, it has been too easy for them to just ignore.

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#1023565 - 03/04/20 07:40 AM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Great Bender]
Tug 3 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 138
Well said, 'Bender. The Commission needs to step up and do what's right. They've been ducking this issue for a long time. Obviously they are hiding something because they don't support even a live television broadcast.! That single fact tells us something.

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#1023742 - 03/04/20 09:59 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1062
Loc: Graham, WA

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#1024189 - 03/08/20 09:14 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1062
Loc: Graham, WA
It's Time the Commission Answer's a Few Questions!

Secrets in fishery management are wrong! Thousands of constituents demand the commission to take some action to bring real, honest transparency to our co-management. Yet, what have they done? What efforts have been done recently to solve this impasse? It’s time the Commission is held accountable to the citizens for answers.

We’ve sent this letter to Commission Chairmen Larry Carpenter, which asks three important questions. Once Chair Carpenter responds, we will post his reply.

We encourage everyone to contact Chair Carpenter and copy your legislators and the Governor. Let know that these secret meetings have gone on too long. It’s time for the Commission to explain to all of us, publicly, why we still don’t have transparency in our fisheries management.

We also ask that you post this letter on all your social media sites, email it to your friends, ask them to get it out and encourage them to contact the Commission, the Governor and their legislators as well.

Here is the letter that we sent to Commission Chair Carpenter. It is now up to him to be transparent with the citizens of this state. We await his response.

___________________LETTER TO CHAIR CARPENTER____
WDFW Chair Carpenter

cc:
Governor Jay Inslee
WDFW Commissioners
WDFW Director Susewind

Chair Carpenter,

We are writing this open letter to raise, once again, the continuing issue of your prohibition to full and open access to the North of Falcon harvest sharing agreement meetings between the Department, under the auspices of the Commission, with the Tribal Co-managers.

Washington’s Fish and Wildlife resources belong to ALL residents and should be available for equal access by residents and non-residents pursuant to State statutes, regulations and court rulings as appropriate.

Recently we sent letters to the Commission and to Vice Chair Shawn Yanity of the NWIFC imploring both sides to find a resolution to the prohibition of non-tribal/non-governmental persons in attending harvest sharing discussions between the Department and Tribal fishery managers as part of the North of Falcon process.

Our insistence on opening these trust killing, closed door meetings should come as no surprise to you or the other Commission members, since it was the Commission that, in 2017, voiced support in having these meetings open.

Since that time, we have been patient yet firm that the public has a right to full transparency in matters of public trust and have been waiting on you to find a solution to this issue.

To date, what we’ve seen appears to be continuing avoidance of any real effort to bring these harvest management discussions into an open public format. What we feel we’re seeing is a strategic effort on the part of the Department and the Commission to provide an appearance of improved transparency, but with little substance.

Recently, the Department “Live Streamed” the North of Falcon forecast meeting via TVW that helped provide general information which is critical to understanding the plight of our salmon and an early overview of the potential 2020 salmon seasons. We find it interesting and somewhat disingenuous that the Department could live stream this information but won’t provide the same consideration to us for Tribal/Department harvest sharing meetings.

For years now, we have heard that meetings with the Co-managers are “Government to Government”, however, that in itself does not prohibit public observation. We know that citizens observers have been permitted to attend some harvest sharing meetings in the past, so what has changed? You’ve also told us that, although the Department and the Commission want to have these meetings open, the Tribal Co-managers won’t agree to it.

We would like your timely response to the following questions:

Why can’t the major Co-manager/Department harvest sharing discussions be broadcast live, as was just done for the forecast meeting?
What recent efforts have you undertaken to resolve the issue of having no citizen observers in these harvest sharing negotiations?
Who is responsible for the continued prohibition of citizen(s) from attending these harvest sharing negotiations as observers?

Without these questions answered there is much confusion amongst the general public, with many believing that the tribal co-managers are the ones preventing these meetings from being open and transparent.

By restricting the public access to the decision process that results in harvest sharing agreements, it removes the ability of the people to insure that conservation and recovery are paramount. Rather you are sending the message that we are to “just trust” the decisions from the very parties that oppose full public disclosure.

Your leadership is needed on this issue, and addressing the above questions and concerns, will help alleviate some of this public consternation.

As we stated, this is an open letter which will be published and provided to the over eight thousand petition supporters as well as emails and posting on a multitude of social media sites.

We are anticipating a timely reply from you to these questions. We will be sharing your response, so the citizens of this state can understand how fish and wildlife management is being handled with the Co-managers.

We look forward to your quick reply.

Please reply to:

Washington Citizen Sportsmen
OpenNOF@Gmail.com


On behalf of over eight thousand
Washington Citizen Sportsmen and Sportswomen

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#1024676 - 03/11/20 02:30 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1062
Loc: Graham, WA




THE NORTH OF FALCON MEETINGS ARE GOING ON RIGHT NOW. YOUR SEASONS ARE BEING SET AND THE DECK IS STACKED AGAINST YOU.

IF YOU STILL THINK THAT EVERYTHING IS FAIR AND EQUAL AND ABOVE BOARD: READ THIS!

CLICK HERE: Why Is Transparency Important In Salmon Season Process?

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#1024681 - 03/11/20 02:49 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5834
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The real disconnect to me is the argument by NOAA that the Tribes can be reviewed and approved fast but not the State.

In order to fully evaluate the Tribals fisheries the NI fishers MUST be factored in. Because, without them, the numbers, catch compositions, and such are all different. IF NOAA approves the Tribal proposal, they have also approved the State's because you need both.

NOAA has to evaluate the Tribes against something and if they approve the Tribes they have also approved "something". Despite appearance of the managers, fisheries don't occur in vacuums.

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#1024705 - 03/11/20 05:21 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Carcassman]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1062
Loc: Graham, WA
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
The real disconnect to me is the argument by NOAA that the Tribes can be reviewed and approved fast but not the State.

In order to fully evaluate the Tribals fisheries the NI fishers MUST be factored in. Because, without them, the numbers, catch compositions, and such are all different. IF NOAA approves the Tribal proposal, they have also approved the State's because you need both.

NOAA has to evaluate the Tribes against something and if they approve the Tribes they have also approved "something". Despite appearance of the managers, fisheries don't occur in vacuums.


If only the layers of this putrid onion could be peeled back, in a very public way, I'm sure the gasps of surprise from one side and of fear from the other, would be heard all the way to DC!

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#1026173 - 03/18/20 05:27 PM Re: LEGAL ACTION CHALLENGING SEASON SETTING PROCESS [Re: Rivrguy]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1062
Loc: Graham, WA
The Leadership of the Northwest Indian Fisheries Commission is losing it's credibility as the voice of the First Nations fishermen...



First Nations citizens support transparency in NOF

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