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#1021793 - 02/08/20 11:36 AM Re: "A Review of Hatchery Reform Science in WA State" [Re: OncyT]
darth baiter Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 199
Loc: United States
Whoa there Numb, pretty harsh words without having a timeframe or location context for slabs generalization. For example, spill and flow ramping regimes have improved in Columbia River hydro system. Some areas have had habitat restoration projects (eg Nisqually estuary). We all reveal some level of our intelligence in our comments. One must be careful.

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#1021797 - 02/08/20 12:07 PM Re: "A Review of Hatchery Reform Science in WA State" [Re: OncyT]
fishbadger Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 1194
Loc: Gig Harbor, WA
+1 on that baiter,

fb
_________________________
"Laugh if you want to, it really is kinda funny, cuz the world is a car and you're the crash test dummy"
All Hail, The Devil Makes Three

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#1021800 - 02/08/20 01:23 PM Re: "A Review of Hatchery Reform Science in WA State" [Re: darth baiter]
Numbqua Offline
Alevin

Registered: 10/29/15
Posts: 15
Originally Posted By: darth baiter
Whoa there Numb, pretty harsh words without having a timeframe or location context for slabs generalization. For example, spill and flow ramping regimes have improved in Columbia River hydro system. Some areas have had habitat restoration projects (eg Nisqually estuary). We all reveal some level of our intelligence in our comments. One must be careful.


You’re missing the most obvious problem in this picture. Ocean productivity in general has tanked. The productivity of the Pacific Ocean is by far and without a doubt the most significant factor or variable when looking at the relationship of smolts recruiting into the adult/spawning population. This is what we have unfortunately been witnessing and probably will continue to in the future.

If ocean conditions continue to be unproductive for salmonids, then other attempts will not be successful in trying to rebuild our stocks.

There are all these complete Neanderthals on this forum that stress planting more fish to curb these recent dismal returns. Planting more will not fix the problem, it will just waste more energy and taxpayers money.

There is no guarantee that by “restoring” habitat (if even possible) equals a significant increase in escapement/harvest. It can take decades to restore habitat. The clock is ticking.....we don’t have decades in case you haven’t noticed.

By the way, how are the populations of salmonids doing on the Columbia/Snake? There have been lots of closed fisheries in the past two seasons.. Those increases in “spill” are important and very necessary but...if we we are to witness significant improvements the dams on the Columbia and Snake need to be removed. Anything less is a band aid solution.

Top
#1021832 - 02/10/20 01:11 PM Re: "A Review of Hatchery Reform Science in WA State" [Re: Numbqua]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Numbqua
Originally Posted By: darth baiter
Whoa there Numb, pretty harsh words without having a timeframe or location context for slabs generalization. For example, spill and flow ramping regimes have improved in Columbia River hydro system. Some areas have had habitat restoration projects (eg Nisqually estuary). We all reveal some level of our intelligence in our comments. One must be careful.


You’re missing the most obvious problem in this picture. Ocean productivity in general has tanked. The productivity of the Pacific Ocean is by far and without a doubt the most significant factor or variable when looking at the relationship of smolts recruiting into the adult/spawning population. This is what we have unfortunately been witnessing and probably will continue to in the future.

If ocean conditions continue to be unproductive for salmonids, then other attempts will not be successful in trying to rebuild our stocks.

There are all these complete Neanderthals on this forum that stress planting more fish to curb these recent dismal returns. Planting more will not fix the problem, it will just waste more energy and taxpayers money.


There is no guarantee that by “restoring” habitat (if even possible) equals a significant increase in escapement/harvest. It can take decades to restore habitat. The clock is ticking.....we don’t have decades in case you haven’t noticed.

By the way, how are the populations of salmonids doing on the Columbia/Snake? There have been lots of closed fisheries in the past two seasons.. Those increases in “spill” are important and very necessary but...if we we are to witness significant improvements the dams on the Columbia and Snake need to be removed. Anything less is a band aid solution.



So in just over four years it seems you've made 13 posts with the last several espousing how other posters are missing your point or are complete Neanderthals. That may be a record (dubious one, but a record none the less).

Just a test question but if the Neanderthals' idea of planting more fish is illogical given constraints of the ocean conditions how will removing the Snake River dams improve returns? That is, unless I missed your initial point......

A serious constraint to Puget Sound origin salmon smolt is predation and particularly by seals and cormorants. According to the Chasko report seals alone are taking roughly 22% of all (wild and hatchery) Puget Sound origin Chinook smolts and when adjusted to adult equivalents seals take twice what Orcas consume and six times all human fisheries.

Being one of your Neanderthals I support additional production with the same optimism of farmers planting their fields; that conditions will be good and the fields will produce.


Edited by Larry B (02/10/20 02:20 PM)
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

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#1021835 - 02/10/20 02:05 PM Re: "A Review of Hatchery Reform Science in WA State" [Re: OncyT]
5 * General Evo Offline
Lord of the Chums

Registered: 03/29/14
Posts: 6825
im sure someone has thought of this before, but ill say it anyways...

our oceans are giant fish tanks, fish need to eat...

anyone ever thought about farming food? like krill, candlefish, etc, the food that salmon and steelhead eat?
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#1021840 - 02/10/20 02:34 PM Re: "A Review of Hatchery Reform Science in WA State" [Re: OncyT]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
Someone is saddling up to ride into town and shoot that one down.

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#1021843 - 02/10/20 02:40 PM Re: "A Review of Hatchery Reform Science in WA State" [Re: 5 * General Evo]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Originally Posted By: Evo
im sure someone has thought of this before, but ill say it anyways...

our oceans are giant fish tanks, fish need to eat...

anyone ever thought about farming food? like krill, candlefish, etc, the food that salmon and steelhead eat?


An easier way to accomplish this is to stop harvesting herring, krill, etc...there would be an immediate increase in food base.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#1021851 - 02/10/20 04:03 PM Re: "A Review of Hatchery Reform Science in WA State" [Re: 5 * General Evo]
stonefish Offline
King of the Beach

Registered: 12/11/02
Posts: 5201
Loc: Carkeek Park
Originally Posted By: Evo
im sure someone has thought of this before, but ill say it anyways...

our oceans are giant fish tanks, fish need to eat...

anyone ever thought about farming food? like krill, candlefish, etc, the food that salmon and steelhead eat?


Not a hatchery, but an idea that might help increase herring populations.
SF

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c...atsen-1.3447913
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Founding Member - 2023 Pink Plague Opposition Party
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#1021852 - 02/10/20 04:06 PM Re: "A Review of Hatchery Reform Science in WA State" [Re: Todd]
SpoonFed Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 01/29/19
Posts: 1519
Originally Posted By: Todd
Originally Posted By: Evo
im sure someone has thought of this before, but ill say it anyways...

our oceans are giant fish tanks, fish need to eat...

anyone ever thought about farming food? like krill, candlefish, etc, the food that salmon and steelhead eat?


An easier way to accomplish this is to stop harvesting herring, krill, etc...there would be an immediate increase in food base.

Fish on...

Todd


Both of these seem like good ideas, couldn't hurt.

Top
#1021853 - 02/10/20 05:13 PM Re: "A Review of Hatchery Reform Science in WA State" [Re: OncyT]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
Feed it and it will come.

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#1021854 - 02/10/20 05:26 PM Re: "A Review of Hatchery Reform Science in WA State" [Re: stonefish]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: stonefish
Originally Posted By: Evo
im sure someone has thought of this before, but ill say it anyways...

our oceans are giant fish tanks, fish need to eat...

anyone ever thought about farming food? like krill, candlefish, etc, the food that salmon and steelhead eat?


Not a hatchery, but an idea that might help increase herring populations.
SF

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-c...atsen-1.3447913


Several Puget Sound Angler chapters are pursuing this idea. Apparently the location in Vancouver had been a successful herring spawning site prior to construction of the marina. The netting essentially replaced the natural spawning habitat.

When contacted the WDFW forage fish specialist opined that Puget Sound has a lot of suitable habitat which is not being utilized. Bottom line, in the case of herring the "build it and they will come" mantra is not necessarily true.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

Top
#1021901 - 02/11/20 08:29 AM Re: "A Review of Hatchery Reform Science in WA State" [Re: OncyT]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
I really think that harvesting all the herring and putting them in a small can with oil will help.
Krill?
Dry em out and drop em in the fish tank at the local Olive Garden.

Top
#1021914 - 02/11/20 08:51 AM Re: "A Review of Hatchery Reform Science in WA State" [Re: WDFW X 1 = 0]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: WDFW X 1 = 0
I really think that harvesting all the herring and putting them in a small can with oil will help.
Krill?
Dry em out and drop em in the fish tank at the local Olive Garden.


So many variations and so little time.....pickled, kippered and a variety of sauces (tomato, mustard, lemon and cracked pepper, creme to name a few).
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

Top
#1021917 - 02/11/20 08:57 AM Re: "A Review of Hatchery Reform Science in WA State" [Re: OncyT]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
Perhaps we could just can steelhead smolt.

I prefer wild.

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#1021923 - 02/11/20 09:18 AM Re: "A Review of Hatchery Reform Science in WA State" [Re: WDFW X 1 = 0]
SpoonFed Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 01/29/19
Posts: 1519
rofl

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#1021924 - 02/11/20 09:27 AM Re: "A Review of Hatchery Reform Science in WA State" [Re: OncyT]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I was just re-reading Royal's report on WA's anadromous trout program. From the early 70s. Back then, WDG was planing "a lot" of steelhead smolts. They found that significant increases did not really bump up catches of hatchery fish. They knew there were limits back then.

Top
#1021936 - 02/11/20 11:27 AM Re: "A Review of Hatchery Reform Science in WA State" [Re: OncyT]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
Yup.
We usually caught limits back then.

AND

There was zero junk mail.

Top
#1021938 - 02/11/20 12:11 PM Re: "A Review of Hatchery Reform Science in WA State" [Re: Numbqua]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Originally Posted By: Numbqua
Originally Posted By: darth baiter
Whoa there Numb, pretty harsh words without having a timeframe or location context for slabs generalization. For example, spill and flow ramping regimes have improved in Columbia River hydro system. Some areas have had habitat restoration projects (eg Nisqually estuary). We all reveal some level of our intelligence in our comments. One must be careful.


You’re missing the most obvious problem in this picture. Ocean productivity in general has tanked. The productivity of the Pacific Ocean is by far and without a doubt the most significant factor or variable when looking at the relationship of smolts recruiting into the adult/spawning population. This is what we have unfortunately been witnessing and probably will continue to in the future.

If ocean conditions continue to be unproductive for salmonids, then other attempts will not be successful in trying to rebuild our stocks.

There are all these complete Neanderthals on this forum that stress planting more fish to curb these recent dismal returns. Planting more will not fix the problem, it will just waste more energy and taxpayers money.

There is no guarantee that by “restoring” habitat (if even possible) equals a significant increase in escapement/harvest. It can take decades to restore habitat. The clock is ticking.....we don’t have decades in case you haven’t noticed.

By the way, how are the populations of salmonids doing on the Columbia/Snake? There have been lots of closed fisheries in the past two seasons.. Those increases in “spill” are important and very necessary but...if we we are to witness significant improvements the dams on the Columbia and Snake need to be removed. Anything less is a band aid solution.


For So. Puget Sound Steelhead, numbers can't even make out past the Straits! This is evidenced by acoustic transmitters planted in them. Something is getting them inside before they even get out to the ocean.
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#1021950 - 02/11/20 01:08 PM Re: "A Review of Hatchery Reform Science in WA State" [Re: OncyT]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
Probably Gov. Inslee's direct flush septic system at the Mansion.

Top
#1021955 - 02/11/20 01:48 PM Re: "A Review of Hatchery Reform Science in WA State" [Re: RUNnGUN]
fishbadger Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/06/01
Posts: 1194
Loc: Gig Harbor, WA
Originally Posted By: RUNnGUN
For So. Puget Sound Steelhead, numbers can't even make out past the Straits! This is evidenced by acoustic transmitters planted in them. Something is getting them inside before they even get out to the ocean.


Something = seals. And cormies,

fb
_________________________
"Laugh if you want to, it really is kinda funny, cuz the world is a car and you're the crash test dummy"
All Hail, The Devil Makes Three

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