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#1028744 - 04/21/20 11:33 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Thanks guy...a very interesting cross section of insight.

And very enlightening in answer to my question.....


There is a way forward, and it can result in positive change. But it will require unity and effort akin to what the tribes did to gain their fishing rights.

How long does it take to write a post on this web site?

How about if every person committed to send a quick email to the Governors office, cc JT Austin and Director Susewind.

All it has to say is:

"Governor Inslee,

As a tax paying citizen of this state and a registered voter, I demand that you fix the issue of inequality in the broken Co-management process.

The North of Falcon salmon setting process is unfair to non-tribal citizens.

I and the hundreds of thousands of registered voters will be closely monitoring your action on this matter."

The Governor is aware already..we've made sure of that...he needs to know that thousands know he's done nothing.

It only takes a couple of minutes...less time than it takes to make some posts here: Heck, you don't even have to look up email address, here they are for you:
govoutbound@iq.governor.wa.gov
jt.austin@gov.wa.gov
director@dfw.wa.gov

Please, don't just let them roll over us...make at least a minimal effort to fight...

Thanks


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#1028877 - 04/21/20 09:58 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
deadly Offline
Fry

Registered: 04/15/12
Posts: 34
Well, that made it easy.

I'm not sure if it'll help anything but one more email is in their inboxes.

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#1028880 - 04/22/20 08:40 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: deadly]
Blktailhunter Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/07/09
Posts: 485
Originally Posted By: deadly
Well, that made it easy.

I'm not sure if it'll help anything but one more email is in their inboxes.



Then flood his home mailbox. He lives on Hawley Way NE on Bainbridge Island. The house numbers are readily available with a google search.

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#1028881 - 04/22/20 08:45 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Yep. Just sent emails. Also included an appeal to open up fishing and hunting now!
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#1028882 - 04/22/20 09:27 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
ned Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 666
Loc: MA 5, 9, 10
Why does everyone accept, and not question, WHY a separate NOAA permit will take 5 YEARS??

What the hell takes 5 years?

Didn't wdfw just reposition management staff to specialize in specific areas? Wouldn't a separate wdfw permit document be very close to what is currently submitted now?
Aren't NOAA staff versed well enough they could evaluate and process this similar document is 6 month, or a year? Why 5 years? Why do you all simply accept 5 years as... acceptable??

Oh yeah, I forgot. Our govt is on year 18 of the point no point ramp installation, with no end in sight.

The lesson here is the longer wdfw delays the unpleasant decision to pursue an independent permit, the less likely it is to ever happen. No director wants to initiate this ugly task on his watch, and have "fishing closed" as his legacy. Look at all the bitching over a 6 week Covid closure. You can hardly blame him.

Me? I blame NOAA. The fed is tasked with protecting tribes and enforcing treaty rights. Anyone see a conflict of interests here? If the tribes sue or pursue legal actions, the Fed must represent them ( ie USA vs State of Washington, in Boldt).

I can see the Attorney General and NOAA heads agreeing, " Hey, life's good, let's not stir that up. Let's not go there.". Not a conspiracy theory, just the way it is.


Edited by ned (04/22/20 09:42 AM)

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#1028888 - 04/22/20 09:46 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Ned,

5 years is NOT a given. A specific permit for WDFW (the state) can be pursued via Section 10 of the ESA and possibly under the Section 4(d) rule, but I am not very familiar with that latter one. Under Section 10 the product is often known as a "Conservation Plan," and the more complex ones have taken 3 to up to 5 years, so I suppose that's where the 5 years came from, using the worst case example. On the other hand, for what is necessary for an ESA fishing permit for WDFW could very realistically be completed in less than 2 years. Under the law, they are supposed to be a lot less than that, but in practice I don't know of any that were done in less than one year.

To me, the time line isn't so much the issue. I'm perplexed that WDFW doesn't seem the least bit motivated to pursue an independent permit. One of the likely snags is that if NMFS receives separate fishing proposals from the state and tribes, and the conservation requirements set by NMFS aren't achieved by the two separate proposals, NMFS is most inclined to want to stay out of the dispute and tell the two parties to iron it out. Of course if ironing it out were on the menu, a joint proposal would be submitted in the first place. The state (or tribes) would be in the position of telling NMFS that it is the federal responsibility (like the federal court in US v WA) to be Solomon and cut the baby in half. And NMFS, being a federal bureaucracy, could not possibly complete that task before the beginning of the fishing season. However, due to the presidential executive order regarding Indian tribes, NMFS would cut a quick temporary permit for the tribal seasons to begin on time. Not so for the state, where no similar requirement exists.

What would be necessary is for the state to pull on its big boy pants, submit its usual conservative non-treaty fishing proposal, and then open seasons accordingly, basically challenging NMFS to initiate legal action against the state for allowing NT fishing prior to getting the NMFS-blessed permit. If so challenged, the state would be in pretty fair standing in federal court stating that the state is not responsible for the federal government's inability or unwillingness to timely process and approve reasonable and conservative fishing season plans. So why don't they do it? Most likely, the state has no big boy pants.

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#1028898 - 04/22/20 10:07 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Lifter99 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 386
Salmo, thanks for the info. I think the idea of WDFW opening the fishing season(s) without the permit being finalized or issued has been discussed in the past. Like you said , to force NMFS to challenge WDFW with legal action. But again, like you said, WDFW has no big boy pants. I remember the 5 year waiting period being mentioned also and wondering why so long. The tribes were getting their permits okayed quickly. The tribes had BIA.

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#1028902 - 04/22/20 10:11 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
BTW, fishing without an approved plan is not a new idea. Both the state and the tribes have done salmon and steelhead fishing for years without legally required ESA plans being developed, submitted, let alone approved. There is precedent.

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#1028913 - 04/22/20 10:53 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Lifter99 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 386
Speaking of no big boy pants, I remember a few years ago, AG Grossman and Ron Warren saying WDFW was going to legally challenge the Skokomish tribe when the tribe claimed they had exclusive right to fish the Skokomish River and WDFW closed it to NI sportfishing. The State said they had a good case. What happened to that? Nothing since. Why didn't WDFW open the fishing and take it to court? A little off subject but another example of no action by the Department. Is it WDFW or someone higher up telling them not to take action on these different issues?

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#1028916 - 04/22/20 11:21 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Great Bender Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 155
Loc: Hood Canal
Lifter--the only plausible answer to that question would be a dictate by the Governor to immediately drop any pursuit of a legal question v. the Skokomish issue. The case had been researched, organized and skulled out by Ferguson's underlings, and boldly made public by Ron Warren and AAG Mike Grossman.

The flow of casino money took priority--plain and simple. A blind man could see this one...

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#1028918 - 04/22/20 11:31 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The part about granting a permit that I don't understand is that the State and Tribal fisheries can't and don't operate in a vacuum. In order to approve the Tribal proposal the has to be a NI fishery outlined. Otherwise, the fisheries are on on more fish if there is no fishery.

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#1028920 - 04/22/20 11:44 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Lifter99]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Lifter99
Speaking of no big boy pants, I remember a few years ago, AG Grossman and Ron Warren saying WDFW was going to legally challenge the Skokomish tribe when the tribe claimed they had exclusive right to fish the Skokomish River and WDFW closed it to NI sportfishing. The State said they had a good case. What happened to that? Nothing since. Why didn't WDFW open the fishing and take it to court? A little off subject but another example of no action by the Department. Is it WDFW or someone higher up telling them not to take action on these different issues?


The last I heard about the Skok was that WDFW Director Susewind signed out a very detailed letter on 3 Oct 2019 to David Bernhardt, Secretary of the Dept. of Interior (parent to the BIA). In that letter he set forth the State's position and requested Secretary Bernhardt's immediate attention to reverse or at a minimum withdraw Opinion N-37034. In making that request Director Susewind pointed out that the State's recreational fishery on the Skok had been closed for four years and planning for the 2020 season would be commencing in Feb 2020.

So for Director Susewind......what has occurred since that letter was submitted? And if it has been ignored by Secretary Bernhardt what is WDFW's plan for moving forward?
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1028924 - 04/22/20 12:09 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Lifter99 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 386
Thanks Larry for the update. I was wondering if WDFW was still considering doing anything or was that situation just "swept under the carpet".

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#1028939 - 04/22/20 03:09 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Lifter99]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Lifter99
Thanks Larry for the update. I was wondering if WDFW was still considering doing anything or was that situation just "swept under the carpet".


You are welcome!

It is unfortunate that such efforts too often fly below the visibility of many stakeholders.

Since we are into discussion of communications to higher levels here is info on contacting the Dept. of Interior:

https://www.doi.gov/contact-us.

If nothing has come back from Secretary Bernhardt it may be time to start pinging their email account.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1028940 - 04/22/20 03:19 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Salmo g.]
ned Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 666
Loc: MA 5, 9, 10
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Ned,

I'm perplexed that WDFW doesn't seem the least bit motivated to pursue an independent permit.


I was in a meeting with WDFW about a fisheries issue, and one of the wdfw higher-ups sitting next to me mumbled, "Yeah, if we do that, the tribes will mess up our elk issue..." and so on.
Meaning, no simple issues are independent, they are all inter-related on a big talley sheet of [Bleeeeep!]-for-tats. If we gain on a certain fisheries issue, the co-managers will deliver pay back in some other arena. NOF is not all about fisheries... maybe another reason it's a closed door negotiation.

If getting a separate State permit is easier than publicized, maybe the payback in other areas of the WDFW (ie hunting programs) is what's stopping them. After all, WDFW covers it all, not just these Piscatorial issues.


Edited by ned (04/22/20 03:23 PM)

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#1028953 - 04/22/20 05:10 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Lifter99]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Originally Posted By: Lifter99
Speaking of no big boy pants, I remember a few years ago, AG Grossman and Ron Warren saying WDFW was going to legally challenge the Skokomish tribe when the tribe claimed they had exclusive right to fish the Skokomish River and WDFW closed it to NI sportfishing. The State said they had a good case. What happened to that? Nothing since. Why didn't WDFW open the fishing and take it to court? A little off subject but another example of no action by the Department. Is it WDFW or someone higher up telling them not to take action on these different issues?


Lifter, not to undermine GB's explanation, I have felt that WDFW doesn't push the Skok issue because if they do, the Skok Tribe and its allies will simply not permit ANY marine salmon recreational fishery in PS. And it looks like WDFW will sacrifice anything else to preserve even a piddling amount of NT recreational fishing in PS. That is, it's deemed more important to give the big boat salt water NT fishermen one day on the water in PS than it is to preserve an entire gamefish season on a river that is tributary to PS. Susewind and Warren won't admit that, but the Department's actions say that.

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#1028957 - 04/22/20 05:40 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Great Bender Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 155
Loc: Hood Canal
There is another factor playing out in the Skokomish issue. I am told that within the Tribe, a good many members, including their Council head, actually are open to negotiation and possible restoration of NT Recs fishing the river bank.

However, there is constant leverage being brought to bare from other tribes with respective rivers flowing through their reservation land. They feel the Skokomish situation could be a gateway factor toward an eventual parity in their case...and they are adamant the Skokomish hold their ground.

Seems farfetched--but the Tribes are not harmonious, in many regards. That particular fact pops up from time to time.

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#1028970 - 04/22/20 06:53 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Great Bender]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Great Bender
There is another factor playing out in the Skokomish issue. I am told that within the Tribe, a good many members, including their Council head, actually are open to negotiation and possible restoration of NT Recs fishing the river bank.

However, there is constant leverage being brought to bare from other tribes with respective rivers flowing through their reservation land. They feel the Skokomish situation could be a gateway factor toward an eventual parity in their case...and they are adamant the Skokomish hold their ground.

Seems farfetched--but the Tribes are not harmonious, in many regards. That particular fact pops up from time to time.


The differentiating aspect of the Skok conflict is that it is really a property line issue rather than a "rights" issue. Maybe we could recall Kaiser Wilhelm I to duty as a third party arbiter (settled the Pig War).
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1028992 - 04/22/20 09:24 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Lifter99 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 386
Thanks again Larry, Salmo and GB. I remember the Skoks saying that one reason they closed the river was that they were upset with the recs pooping and leaving trash on the river. Like you said Larry, it is time to start sending some emails.

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#1028993 - 04/22/20 11:02 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Lifter99]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Lifter99
Thanks again Larry, Salmo and GB. I remember the Skoks saying that one reason they closed the river was that they were upset with the recs pooping and leaving trash on the river. Like you said Larry, it is time to start sending some emails.


I would opine that the Skoks didn't close the river. That was done by WDFW rather than precipitate a direct conflict between fishers and the tribe/Federal officers.

The conditions of which they complained were mitigated by WDFW yet the tribe hasn't withdrawn it objection nor its claim to the lower river. Those conditions made for good press but one has to question the real end game.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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