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#1028574 - 04/20/20 12:27 PM Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate.
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
This was just posted by Mr. Brett Rosson, a member of the Puget Sound Sport fishing Advisory Group.


North of Falcon 2014 was the first time I heard mention of WDFW getting its own permit. This was also the first year that WDFW began to focus on Marine Area 7 (MA 7) as a place to start reducing chinook fishing opportunity in order to comply with NOAA mandated ‘conservation objectives’.

Back then, the Lake Washington and Mid Hood Canal stocks were really driving cuts (cuts mandated so as to be in compliance with NOAA’s guidelines for recovery of Endangered Species Act (ESA) listed stocks). These two stocks were concentrated in the mid to southern portion of the Sound, and so the majority of the restrictions or cuts were made to MA 9-10.

But in 2014 the focus of cuts shifted north, and have by and large remained there ever since. So in 2014 WDFW began by converting October from non-selective (able to keep non-clipped chinook) to a selective fishery (having to release of non-clipped fish), and that’s when the landslide truly began. Over the next six years, MA 7 chinook fishery was systematically whittled down. Our season went from eight months of non-selective chinook fishing in 2014 to TWO WEEKS of selective chinook fishing in 2020.

Now the average person would look at this and say, “wow, there must have been really good reason for this, or WDFW would not have cut this fishery by 93%". Looking at these cuts, one would have reasonably concluded that the number of chinook returning to Puget Sound, and in particular those passing through MA 7, had very significantly dropped off. Well, that person would be wrong.

You see, what really took place in 2014 is that WDFW was no longer in year-to-year negotiations with tribes to get an agreement on a fishing package to present to NOAA for approval. Because the previously agreed to ten-year chinook harvest management plan had expired, our permit to fish was now tied to (piggybacked) to the tribes permit. This piggybacking was intended to be a short term solution that allowed the state to continue to get an annual permit to fish while the two sides worked on an agreement for the next ten-year management plan. It was at the beginning of this interim period that the tribes began to dictate, not negotiate.
Brett Rosson

CLICK HERE:Memebers of the Puget Sound Sport Fishng Advisory Group

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#1028578 - 04/20/20 01:01 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Lifter99 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 386
Tell us something we don't know.

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#1028586 - 04/20/20 02:11 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Brent K Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 08/12/13
Posts: 108
Loc: Arlington, Washington
The late summer king fishery in MA 7 was one of the best in the state for those that new it well. The ironic thing is a lot of those kings are canadian fish. I never broke the 40lb mark but I caught a 32, 37, 38, and also saw a 33, 34, and 36 in the boat for other anglers. All but the 32 being caught from 2001-2011. I'm glad to say I fished it during my good old days but I'm sad to see future generations loose this fishery. Due to the SRKW situation and how WDFW does business I don't see that late summer fishery being open for a very long time, if ever.

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#1028625 - 04/20/20 06:03 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Lifter99]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Originally Posted By: Lifter99
Tell us something we don't know.


This...unfortunately.

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#1028693 - 04/20/20 11:13 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
So, I'm curious. I know there are some here who are tired of me "beating my drum" about problems in the North of Falcon.

We have concluded another NOF. And seen yet again, more drastic cuts.

We have eyewitnesses who say "The tribes didn't even pretend this year to negotiate..they came in, made their demands and WDFW caved".

So, I'm just wondering. What more can we possibly do to get the recreational fishermen fired up?

I see some really great anger and action going on about the temporary shut down. I would really like to see that kind of outrage about NOF?

So, is it that most guys are mad as hell, they just don't know what to do?

Or have most just given up...content that sport fishing will just continue to decline into non existence?

I've been on this board for a long time...I value many of you and your experience. Let me know...where is fire?

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#1028695 - 04/21/20 03:49 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
_WW_ Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/30/13
Posts: 233
Loc: Skagit
I suspect many folks can see the size of the hill that needs to be climbed and choose to go around it.
_________________________
Catch & Release Is Not A Crime

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#1028699 - 04/21/20 07:47 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Lifter99 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 386
A lot of people are pissed at WDFW for never getting their own permit. They (NOAA) said it would take 5 years for the WDFW to get their own permit. If they (WDFW) would have started the process back in 2014 or 2015 they would have their own permit and the tribes wouldn't have all the power.

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#1028700 - 04/21/20 07:48 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The Tribes not negotiating is nothing new. Back in the 80s they came into a meeting with WA and OR (not NOF) and said here is our fishing pattern; work around it. One should note that there are more than 20 Tribes. The come into the meeting with a united front. The NI side? 37.000 different positions arguing with each other.

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#1028701 - 04/21/20 07:49 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
So why are we not bypassing the dictator and applying to NOAA for our own season permits for 2021 and 2022, etc. now?
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#1028702 - 04/21/20 08:04 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Blktailhunter Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/07/09
Posts: 485
Which tribe is currently crabbing/shrimping in area 11?

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#1028703 - 04/21/20 08:43 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
snit Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 1844
Loc: Wenatchee, WA
Bay Wolf, I believe the average sportsman is very selfish with their time and focus. Not much (if any) is donated to/for the enhancement of the resource, assuming instead that:

A) it's already a lost cause
B) Continue pointing finger at issues that are almost too monumental to change (tribes, dams, weather patterns, etc)
C) I better "get my share" before all the other user groups get the season shut down because I bought my license
D) I joined "Blank, Group, Assoc" and sent a check, so I've donated. Now get off my back! I want my share, and it better be a bigger share than yours! BTW, who wants to go crabbing, I've got SO MUCH freezer burnt salmon and steelhead??
E) They're just going to die..see "C"
F) Someone always helps out, it's always the retired guys. They need something to do, as I'm just too busy with my work, plus they've already seen it when it was really good!! "Hey man, want to fish every weekend like we have since college, cause we're almost 50 and we don't have wife/kids? Heck yeah, bro"?!

The only way to get more involved is to have more taken more away, IMO. Unless there's a tipping point, and then the focus is lost.
_________________________
..."the clock looked at me just like the devil in disguise"...

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#1028705 - 04/21/20 08:59 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Lifter99 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 386
The Puyallup Tribe is now crabbing Area 11.

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#1028706 - 04/21/20 09:06 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Blktailhunter]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Despite the lack of a strong rebound in the Dungeness crab resource (all size classes) in MA 11 the Puyallup tribe forced the issue and is currently crabbing there. Ongoing negotiations ultimately resulted in a reduction (approx 18%) in their original target harvest number and WDFW is now looking at how they might prosecute a recreational season on what is a low poundage and not exceed that share. More to come.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1028707 - 04/21/20 09:09 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Lifter99 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 386
RUNnGUN. That is the $64,000 question. Why hasn't WDFW applied for there own permit? Has the Gov , tribes or someone else told them not to apply? I think a lot of people want to know. Maybe CM , Smalma or Salmo g. can give can suggest or give an answer on that.

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#1028709 - 04/21/20 09:12 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Sky-Guy Offline
The Tide changed

Registered: 08/31/00
Posts: 7232
Loc: Everett
I wonder if any Puget Sound Fisheries advisors will speak out about how on Friday, the final day, the Advisory group majority consensus was to walk away from Negotiations this year, and the department chose to ignore this request and got up from the discussion and went and closed the deal?


Wouldn't you agree this is a story worth exploring and covering for the recreational constituency as a whole??



_________________________
You know something bad is going to happen when you hear..."Hey, hold my beer and watch this"

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#1028711 - 04/21/20 09:33 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Bay Wolf,

Cuts in harvest are unavoidable. By definition, when salmon abundance declines, then harvest must be reduced proportionately. I find that acceptable.

What I find unacceptable is for WDFW to announce that it values transparency and then makes significant decisions out of sight behind closed doors, keeps the means by which the important decision was made unknown. I find it unacceptable for WDFW to announce that the important decision was made for and is necessary for conservation, and then our independent analysis of the data shows that not to be true. In fact the decision was made because the tribes have leverage, through Department piggybacking on the tribal BIA permit, to coerce whatever demands they want on WDFW. The reason that is unacceptable is because it means the Department has made lying a part of official Department policy. Lying is a cover-up for further lack of transparency.

I also find it unacceptable for the Department to bite the hand that feeds it. By that I mean, WDFW expects us to support its full funding requests to fund and operate programs that offer little or no benefit to its constituents who pay the taxes and fees that keep the lights on and the doors open at WDFW. I'm old fashioned and expect to get something (not necessarily personally) for my money. The Department is broken and wants to keep it that way. I don't think that's acceptable. Reduced harvests when fish are less abundant is something I find completely acceptable. And therein is my difference with the Department.

BTW, I just learned that WDFW deems monitoring, like doing spawning surveys, an essential activity. OK, that sounds good to me. And WDFW got support for its supplemental budget request in the recent Legislative session. It's true that as a result of the pandemic, Governor Inslee vetoed some items in that supplemental request. But essential fish and wildlife monitoring was not among the vetoed items. However, WDFW is not planning to perform steelhead spawning surveys in Region 4, the Puget Sound area that includes the Skagit River - the very poster child for the need for funding to conduct essential monitoring in order that we might continue to have fishing. As eyeFISH would say, "GDITMMM!" It's almost like WDFW just can't pass up an opportunity to double cross its otherwise most ardent supporters.

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#1028714 - 04/21/20 09:40 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Sky-Guy Offline
The Tide changed

Registered: 08/31/00
Posts: 7232
Loc: Everett
Also, some things never change. Read this older TE article in light of what happened at this years NOF:

https://tidalexchange.com/2018/01/04/wdfw-gives-up-puget-sound-fishing-for-nothing/
_________________________
You know something bad is going to happen when you hear..."Hey, hold my beer and watch this"

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#1028719 - 04/21/20 09:52 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
Bay Wolf-

I appreciate what you and all the others are attempting to fix what is clearly a broken NOF process; which by the way has broken from its very first days.

However the seasons that we see at the end of this year's process are not the result of that broken process but rather two other much larger issues that we the fishers (whether tribal, commercial, or recreational) largely ignore. As begin the 3rd decade of managing fisheries targeting ESA listed PS Chinook it is clear that recovery efforts of those Chinook have failed miserably. It is also clear that society has spoken quite loudly that using ESA impacts to support fishing is of the lowest priorities of all possible uses.

The Stillaguamish Chinook have become the poster child of those recovery failures and what we saw this year is the new reality of Puget Sound Chinook fisheries. For those Chinook the combination of poor freshwater and marine survivals have made the Stillaguamish tribal conservation hatchery program essential for the continued existence of that listed population.

From my perspective any chance of reversing those realities is dependent on the all the fishers (tribal and non-tribal) uniting with a common voice and goal. Every year that chances of that occurring is less probable.

Curt

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#1028731 - 04/21/20 10:28 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Salmo g.]
Steelheadman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/15/99
Posts: 4214
Loc: Poulsbo, WA,USA
Monitoring is now deemed essential by wdfw? Isn't what I heard a few weeks ago when I was trying to get them to come in and do a monitoring study in support of our permit. Oh well learned alot the past month having to deal with water, NEPA, historical resources, permits, tribes, and biologists. Back to the world of toxic waste on swings and some telecomuting taking a cleanup quallity assurance class.
_________________________
I'd Rather Be Fishing for Summer Steelhead!

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#1028739 - 04/21/20 11:07 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1531
Loc: Tacoma
Like you, I too keep beating a dead horse. Everytime you hear the state claim they can do nothing, it is a lie. Boldt is an open court case and has provisions for when the tribes and states do not agree. The problem is, the state refuses to utilize these provisions and simply agrees to what the Tribes ask for.

Take for example the recent Puyallup Tribal crabbing. While this is under a different court case, the principal is the same. Many of you feel the State can do nothing. Well, take a look at what the manager for the area stated in a reply to my email. (In the past, I did not share some of my emails out of respect for responder. Most of them are simply working in the parameters allowed and should not be taking the blame for what is going on, However, when the state got sued recently, they went in the archives and released a large number of my emails that I was holding back to be kind, so in return, I am now sharing mine when appropriate.)



XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
Hi ....
I appreciate you reaching out. We have been in preseason discussions with the Puyallup tribe but are currently not in agreement on this fishery plan for 2020. We are in the middle of developing our response to the recent regulation, so unfortunately I cannot comment fully on response at this time. However, to speak to some of your other questions, test fishing numbers do indicate crab abundances have improved in marine area 11, potentially allowing for some harvest opportunity for both the state and the tribes. As you know, marine area 11 has been closed for 2 years, so while the improved test fishing numbers are encouraging, we want to take a cautious approach this year. The harvest quota and corresponding season in this area still remains to be finalized.

In shellfish fisheries, there is a separate court decision referred to as the Refeedie decision. While there are many principles shared between the Boldt and Rafeedie decisions like an equal sharing principle, the legal framework surrounding times when the state and tribes disagree on fisheries is different. The current regulation from the Puyallup tribes as you said, is a regulation to go fishing without a comanager agreement. The state (or tribes if the tables were turned) then has the opportunity to challenge that regulation on grounds that the regulation contradicts key provisions of what’s called the Shellfish implementation plan. For example, IF we believed that this fishery would do undue harm to the resource, we could object on conservation grounds. This rarely happens as issues are often resolved prior to this point but it remains an option.

If you wouldn’t mind and are still interested in getting a final answer to the questions you posed that are outstanding, please feel free to send a follow up email in a few weeks. I should have much more solid information to pass onto you at that time.

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

Note the that they agree that they could object, but this rarely happens as the issues are resolved. I would go on to state that they never protest. If they do, it must be in situations that are so outrageous or, more likely, in which other tribes protest and the state steps in. I have no faith in them actually objecting. To be blunt, they are scared to do so, as they are convinced the Tribes will fight and try to bring up other issues, such as development and such. Whether the scale has tipped enough to warrant that risk is something I think most of us disagree with the State on. I also disagree with the level of risk, but given the way the department is run

If I am viewing this wrong, please let me know. So far I have not seen anything to make me believe I am. Simply put, there is no need for anything other than the State to utilize the resources already available. They just don's.

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#1028744 - 04/21/20 11:33 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA
Thanks guy...a very interesting cross section of insight.

And very enlightening in answer to my question.....


There is a way forward, and it can result in positive change. But it will require unity and effort akin to what the tribes did to gain their fishing rights.

How long does it take to write a post on this web site?

How about if every person committed to send a quick email to the Governors office, cc JT Austin and Director Susewind.

All it has to say is:

"Governor Inslee,

As a tax paying citizen of this state and a registered voter, I demand that you fix the issue of inequality in the broken Co-management process.

The North of Falcon salmon setting process is unfair to non-tribal citizens.

I and the hundreds of thousands of registered voters will be closely monitoring your action on this matter."

The Governor is aware already..we've made sure of that...he needs to know that thousands know he's done nothing.

It only takes a couple of minutes...less time than it takes to make some posts here: Heck, you don't even have to look up email address, here they are for you:
govoutbound@iq.governor.wa.gov
jt.austin@gov.wa.gov
director@dfw.wa.gov

Please, don't just let them roll over us...make at least a minimal effort to fight...

Thanks


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#1028877 - 04/21/20 09:58 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
deadly Offline
Fry

Registered: 04/15/12
Posts: 34
Well, that made it easy.

I'm not sure if it'll help anything but one more email is in their inboxes.

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#1028880 - 04/22/20 08:40 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: deadly]
Blktailhunter Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/07/09
Posts: 485
Originally Posted By: deadly
Well, that made it easy.

I'm not sure if it'll help anything but one more email is in their inboxes.



Then flood his home mailbox. He lives on Hawley Way NE on Bainbridge Island. The house numbers are readily available with a google search.

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#1028881 - 04/22/20 08:45 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Yep. Just sent emails. Also included an appeal to open up fishing and hunting now!
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#1028882 - 04/22/20 09:27 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
ned Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 666
Loc: MA 5, 9, 10
Why does everyone accept, and not question, WHY a separate NOAA permit will take 5 YEARS??

What the hell takes 5 years?

Didn't wdfw just reposition management staff to specialize in specific areas? Wouldn't a separate wdfw permit document be very close to what is currently submitted now?
Aren't NOAA staff versed well enough they could evaluate and process this similar document is 6 month, or a year? Why 5 years? Why do you all simply accept 5 years as... acceptable??

Oh yeah, I forgot. Our govt is on year 18 of the point no point ramp installation, with no end in sight.

The lesson here is the longer wdfw delays the unpleasant decision to pursue an independent permit, the less likely it is to ever happen. No director wants to initiate this ugly task on his watch, and have "fishing closed" as his legacy. Look at all the bitching over a 6 week Covid closure. You can hardly blame him.

Me? I blame NOAA. The fed is tasked with protecting tribes and enforcing treaty rights. Anyone see a conflict of interests here? If the tribes sue or pursue legal actions, the Fed must represent them ( ie USA vs State of Washington, in Boldt).

I can see the Attorney General and NOAA heads agreeing, " Hey, life's good, let's not stir that up. Let's not go there.". Not a conspiracy theory, just the way it is.


Edited by ned (04/22/20 09:42 AM)

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#1028888 - 04/22/20 09:46 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Ned,

5 years is NOT a given. A specific permit for WDFW (the state) can be pursued via Section 10 of the ESA and possibly under the Section 4(d) rule, but I am not very familiar with that latter one. Under Section 10 the product is often known as a "Conservation Plan," and the more complex ones have taken 3 to up to 5 years, so I suppose that's where the 5 years came from, using the worst case example. On the other hand, for what is necessary for an ESA fishing permit for WDFW could very realistically be completed in less than 2 years. Under the law, they are supposed to be a lot less than that, but in practice I don't know of any that were done in less than one year.

To me, the time line isn't so much the issue. I'm perplexed that WDFW doesn't seem the least bit motivated to pursue an independent permit. One of the likely snags is that if NMFS receives separate fishing proposals from the state and tribes, and the conservation requirements set by NMFS aren't achieved by the two separate proposals, NMFS is most inclined to want to stay out of the dispute and tell the two parties to iron it out. Of course if ironing it out were on the menu, a joint proposal would be submitted in the first place. The state (or tribes) would be in the position of telling NMFS that it is the federal responsibility (like the federal court in US v WA) to be Solomon and cut the baby in half. And NMFS, being a federal bureaucracy, could not possibly complete that task before the beginning of the fishing season. However, due to the presidential executive order regarding Indian tribes, NMFS would cut a quick temporary permit for the tribal seasons to begin on time. Not so for the state, where no similar requirement exists.

What would be necessary is for the state to pull on its big boy pants, submit its usual conservative non-treaty fishing proposal, and then open seasons accordingly, basically challenging NMFS to initiate legal action against the state for allowing NT fishing prior to getting the NMFS-blessed permit. If so challenged, the state would be in pretty fair standing in federal court stating that the state is not responsible for the federal government's inability or unwillingness to timely process and approve reasonable and conservative fishing season plans. So why don't they do it? Most likely, the state has no big boy pants.

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#1028898 - 04/22/20 10:07 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Lifter99 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 386
Salmo, thanks for the info. I think the idea of WDFW opening the fishing season(s) without the permit being finalized or issued has been discussed in the past. Like you said , to force NMFS to challenge WDFW with legal action. But again, like you said, WDFW has no big boy pants. I remember the 5 year waiting period being mentioned also and wondering why so long. The tribes were getting their permits okayed quickly. The tribes had BIA.

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#1028902 - 04/22/20 10:11 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
BTW, fishing without an approved plan is not a new idea. Both the state and the tribes have done salmon and steelhead fishing for years without legally required ESA plans being developed, submitted, let alone approved. There is precedent.

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#1028913 - 04/22/20 10:53 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Lifter99 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 386
Speaking of no big boy pants, I remember a few years ago, AG Grossman and Ron Warren saying WDFW was going to legally challenge the Skokomish tribe when the tribe claimed they had exclusive right to fish the Skokomish River and WDFW closed it to NI sportfishing. The State said they had a good case. What happened to that? Nothing since. Why didn't WDFW open the fishing and take it to court? A little off subject but another example of no action by the Department. Is it WDFW or someone higher up telling them not to take action on these different issues?

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#1028916 - 04/22/20 11:21 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Great Bender Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 155
Loc: Hood Canal
Lifter--the only plausible answer to that question would be a dictate by the Governor to immediately drop any pursuit of a legal question v. the Skokomish issue. The case had been researched, organized and skulled out by Ferguson's underlings, and boldly made public by Ron Warren and AAG Mike Grossman.

The flow of casino money took priority--plain and simple. A blind man could see this one...

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#1028918 - 04/22/20 11:31 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7410
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The part about granting a permit that I don't understand is that the State and Tribal fisheries can't and don't operate in a vacuum. In order to approve the Tribal proposal the has to be a NI fishery outlined. Otherwise, the fisheries are on on more fish if there is no fishery.

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#1028920 - 04/22/20 11:44 AM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Lifter99]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Lifter99
Speaking of no big boy pants, I remember a few years ago, AG Grossman and Ron Warren saying WDFW was going to legally challenge the Skokomish tribe when the tribe claimed they had exclusive right to fish the Skokomish River and WDFW closed it to NI sportfishing. The State said they had a good case. What happened to that? Nothing since. Why didn't WDFW open the fishing and take it to court? A little off subject but another example of no action by the Department. Is it WDFW or someone higher up telling them not to take action on these different issues?


The last I heard about the Skok was that WDFW Director Susewind signed out a very detailed letter on 3 Oct 2019 to David Bernhardt, Secretary of the Dept. of Interior (parent to the BIA). In that letter he set forth the State's position and requested Secretary Bernhardt's immediate attention to reverse or at a minimum withdraw Opinion N-37034. In making that request Director Susewind pointed out that the State's recreational fishery on the Skok had been closed for four years and planning for the 2020 season would be commencing in Feb 2020.

So for Director Susewind......what has occurred since that letter was submitted? And if it has been ignored by Secretary Bernhardt what is WDFW's plan for moving forward?
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

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#1028924 - 04/22/20 12:09 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Lifter99 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 386
Thanks Larry for the update. I was wondering if WDFW was still considering doing anything or was that situation just "swept under the carpet".

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#1028939 - 04/22/20 03:09 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Lifter99]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Lifter99
Thanks Larry for the update. I was wondering if WDFW was still considering doing anything or was that situation just "swept under the carpet".


You are welcome!

It is unfortunate that such efforts too often fly below the visibility of many stakeholders.

Since we are into discussion of communications to higher levels here is info on contacting the Dept. of Interior:

https://www.doi.gov/contact-us.

If nothing has come back from Secretary Bernhardt it may be time to start pinging their email account.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1028940 - 04/22/20 03:19 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Salmo g.]
ned Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/07
Posts: 666
Loc: MA 5, 9, 10
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Ned,

I'm perplexed that WDFW doesn't seem the least bit motivated to pursue an independent permit.


I was in a meeting with WDFW about a fisheries issue, and one of the wdfw higher-ups sitting next to me mumbled, "Yeah, if we do that, the tribes will mess up our elk issue..." and so on.
Meaning, no simple issues are independent, they are all inter-related on a big talley sheet of [Bleeeeep!]-for-tats. If we gain on a certain fisheries issue, the co-managers will deliver pay back in some other arena. NOF is not all about fisheries... maybe another reason it's a closed door negotiation.

If getting a separate State permit is easier than publicized, maybe the payback in other areas of the WDFW (ie hunting programs) is what's stopping them. After all, WDFW covers it all, not just these Piscatorial issues.


Edited by ned (04/22/20 03:23 PM)

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#1028953 - 04/22/20 05:10 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Lifter99]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Originally Posted By: Lifter99
Speaking of no big boy pants, I remember a few years ago, AG Grossman and Ron Warren saying WDFW was going to legally challenge the Skokomish tribe when the tribe claimed they had exclusive right to fish the Skokomish River and WDFW closed it to NI sportfishing. The State said they had a good case. What happened to that? Nothing since. Why didn't WDFW open the fishing and take it to court? A little off subject but another example of no action by the Department. Is it WDFW or someone higher up telling them not to take action on these different issues?


Lifter, not to undermine GB's explanation, I have felt that WDFW doesn't push the Skok issue because if they do, the Skok Tribe and its allies will simply not permit ANY marine salmon recreational fishery in PS. And it looks like WDFW will sacrifice anything else to preserve even a piddling amount of NT recreational fishing in PS. That is, it's deemed more important to give the big boat salt water NT fishermen one day on the water in PS than it is to preserve an entire gamefish season on a river that is tributary to PS. Susewind and Warren won't admit that, but the Department's actions say that.

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#1028957 - 04/22/20 05:40 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Great Bender Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/03/17
Posts: 155
Loc: Hood Canal
There is another factor playing out in the Skokomish issue. I am told that within the Tribe, a good many members, including their Council head, actually are open to negotiation and possible restoration of NT Recs fishing the river bank.

However, there is constant leverage being brought to bare from other tribes with respective rivers flowing through their reservation land. They feel the Skokomish situation could be a gateway factor toward an eventual parity in their case...and they are adamant the Skokomish hold their ground.

Seems farfetched--but the Tribes are not harmonious, in many regards. That particular fact pops up from time to time.

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#1028970 - 04/22/20 06:53 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Great Bender]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Great Bender
There is another factor playing out in the Skokomish issue. I am told that within the Tribe, a good many members, including their Council head, actually are open to negotiation and possible restoration of NT Recs fishing the river bank.

However, there is constant leverage being brought to bare from other tribes with respective rivers flowing through their reservation land. They feel the Skokomish situation could be a gateway factor toward an eventual parity in their case...and they are adamant the Skokomish hold their ground.

Seems farfetched--but the Tribes are not harmonious, in many regards. That particular fact pops up from time to time.


The differentiating aspect of the Skok conflict is that it is really a property line issue rather than a "rights" issue. Maybe we could recall Kaiser Wilhelm I to duty as a third party arbiter (settled the Pig War).
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1028992 - 04/22/20 09:24 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Lifter99 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 386
Thanks again Larry, Salmo and GB. I remember the Skoks saying that one reason they closed the river was that they were upset with the recs pooping and leaving trash on the river. Like you said Larry, it is time to start sending some emails.

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#1028993 - 04/22/20 11:02 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Lifter99]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 3020
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Lifter99
Thanks again Larry, Salmo and GB. I remember the Skoks saying that one reason they closed the river was that they were upset with the recs pooping and leaving trash on the river. Like you said Larry, it is time to start sending some emails.


I would opine that the Skoks didn't close the river. That was done by WDFW rather than precipitate a direct conflict between fishers and the tribe/Federal officers.

The conditions of which they complained were mitigated by WDFW yet the tribe hasn't withdrawn it objection nor its claim to the lower river. Those conditions made for good press but one has to question the real end game.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1028994 - 04/22/20 11:10 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Lifter99 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 386
Larry, I wonder if Hunter Farms on the other side of the river has to reimburse or pay "rent" to the tribe for the land they occupy? I am guessing the tribe claims all of Hunter Farms land as theirs. Just wondering.

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#1029019 - 04/23/20 12:59 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Krijack Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1531
Loc: Tacoma
Lifter, the tribe's claim is that the borders to the reservation include the river up to its bank on the far side. History, maps and a other sources do a good job of disputing this. There was a prior suit the tribe lots concerning the ownership of tidelands that lays out some guidelines to determining borders. From this precedent, I believe the tribe clearly is in the wrong. In any case, the this would not have any bearing on Hunters land, just his right to access the river boarding his property.

I posted an old email here in the past in which I was told the State / Departement had worked out an agreement to open up the Skok in the past, but at the NOF tribal negotiations the other tribes stated that if an agreement was attempted, they would walk out of the negotiations - basically cancelling the State's / Department's ability to get a season. The State then caved. Then, it was all basically covered up. Both the state and tribe indicated that they work still working out an agreement and the Skok's actually came out and said the issue never came up.

Huge reason why the meetings must be opened.

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#1029036 - 04/23/20 07:24 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Gov. response to the email I sent:
"Thank you for contacting Governor Inslee. We have received your comments and appreciate that you have taken the time to share your thoughts with our office.

Communicating with the Governor is an important way to help shape our state's policies and priorities. We all benefit from the input of interested individuals like you. Although the volume of contacts we receive does not permit a specific response to every email, please know that all comments are read and shared with internal staff and agencies as appropriate.

If you are experiencing problems with a state agency, our office will send a referral to the headquarters office on your behalf and ask that agency staff respond to you directly.

If you are contacting us about an issue that is outside of the Governor's jurisdiction, we will follow up with you and provide appropriate contact information and other resources as available.

Again, thank you for reaching out to Governor Inslee.

Sincerely,


Constituent Services
Office of Governor Jay Inslee

Obviously they are busy and sent out a generic response, understandable. we will see if they follow up?


Edited by RUNnGUN (04/23/20 07:25 PM)
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#1029120 - 04/25/20 03:58 PM Re: Tribes Dictate, not Negotiate. [Re: Bay wolf]
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1075
Loc: Graham, WA

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