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#1028872 - 04/21/20 08:26 PM Re: 20-21 WA Salmon Seasons Announced [Re: RUNnGUN]
darth baiter Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 199
Loc: United States
Jeeze. It was written in 2005 well before Ferguson's time. Its not a legal document. Its simply a summary of court cases related to state and treaty fishing for the lay person.

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#1028941 - 04/22/20 03:23 PM Re: 20-21 WA Salmon Seasons Announced [Re: RUNnGUN]
eddie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 2432
Loc: Valencia, Negros Oriental, Phi...
Originally Posted By: RUNnGUN
Originally Posted By: Todd
1. The Governor doesn't tell the AG to do anything. That's not how our state government is set up.

2. The tribes have had all of us by the shorthairs since 1974. There is no telling them what to do, or how to do it. None...including telling them that meetings they are at have to be "open". They can just say "no", and there you go.

Fish on...

Todd

Your wrong! Back in the day the Dept. of game used to swoop in and remove nets and close tribal fishing when quotas were met. I witnessed it! They have no balls to bump heads and enforce no, anymore is the problem.


And this is the prime reason that we have Boldt. Not just "enforcing" tribal quotas but barring the Tribes from fishing at all. What an interesting world we would live in if the State actually worked with the Tribes rather than confronting. That whole Boldt thing has really worked out well for us, the sports fisherman!
_________________________
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#1028944 - 04/22/20 04:06 PM Re: 20-21 WA Salmon Seasons Announced [Re: eddie]
blackmouth Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2713
Loc: right place/wrong time
Originally Posted By: eddie
And this is the prime reason that we have Boldt. Not just "enforcing" tribal quotas but barring the Tribes from fishing at all. What an interesting world we would live in if the State actually worked with the Tribes rather than confronting. That whole Boldt thing has really worked out well for us, the sports fisherman!


1.Just what tribal quotas are you referring to?
2.The State was not barring the tribe from fishing at all.
3.I can only assume that you meant that the Boldt decision has not worked out well for the sportsman.


Edited by blackmouth (04/22/20 04:23 PM)
Edit Reason: clarify
_________________________
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill

"So it goes." Kurt Vonnegut jr.

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#1028951 - 04/22/20 05:03 PM Re: 20-21 WA Salmon Seasons Announced [Re: blackmouth]
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Originally Posted By: blackmouth


1.Just what tribal quotas are you referring to?
2.The State was not barring the tribe from fishing at all.
3.I can only assume that you meant that the Boldt decision has not worked out well for the sportsman.


Some form of truth to that. The state permitted Indians to fish under state rules. So some Lummi tribal fishermen had state issued purse seine, gillnet, and reef net licenses and fished commercially in Puget Sound under WDF regulations. And the state permitted Indians to purchase recreational fishing licenses to fish recreationally in freshwater rivers. However, the state prohibited treaty Indians from fishing commercially in freshwater rivers or without state licenses, except on reservations. Basically the state treated treaty fishing the same as non-treaty fishing, with on reservation fishing being the only exception. And that resulted in Boldt.

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#1028956 - 04/22/20 05:33 PM Re: 20-21 WA Salmon Seasons Announced [Re: RUNnGUN]
blackmouth Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2713
Loc: right place/wrong time
Some might say that the Tribes were fishing "In common with" the other citizens.
_________________________
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill

"So it goes." Kurt Vonnegut jr.

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#1028958 - 04/22/20 06:14 PM Re: 20-21 WA Salmon Seasons Announced [Re: blackmouth]
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Originally Posted By: blackmouth
Some might say that the Tribes were fishing "In common with" the other citizens.


Funny you should mention that, because that was the state's defense. History shows that the feds and the court saw it differently.

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#1028959 - 04/22/20 06:17 PM Re: 20-21 WA Salmon Seasons Announced [Re: Carcassman]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
Before Co-Management, the State (WDF and WDG) had sole responsibility for conservation. I think that is still the way Boldt is worded but the state decided to share conservation responsibility when they agreed to Co-management.

Back then, the State could and did enact closures (e-regs) when either allocation or conservation required it. Most of the time (and this is from the WDF side) the issuance of the reg was pro-forma as both sides generally agreed where we were vis-a-vis harvest as data and updates were real-time.


So put on some big boy pants and repeal "Co-management"! IT AIN'T WORKING!


Edited by RUNnGUN (04/22/20 06:20 PM)
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#1028977 - 04/22/20 07:30 PM Re: 20-21 WA Salmon Seasons Announced [Re: Salmo g.]
blackmouth Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2713
Loc: right place/wrong time
Originally Posted By: Salmo g.
Originally Posted By: blackmouth
Some might say that the Tribes were fishing "In common with" the other citizens.

Funny you should mention that, because that was the state's defense. History shows that the feds and the court saw it differently.


Well now that is interesting because actually In the mid-1800’s, the United States entered into a series of treaties with tribes in what is now the State of Washington. Those treaties contained language reserving the tribes’ right to fish “in common with the citizens of the Territory.” and that is why I put the phrase in quotes. So it seems that you are telling me that the Feds and the court did not agree with their own treaty. I lifted the underlined section from, https://www.justice.gov/enrd/us-v-washington

"Boldt interpreted the words “in common with” to mean the tribes were entitled to up to 50 percent of the harvestable catch, an almost inconceivable change considering tribal members made up less than 1 percent of the state population and non-Indian fishermen routinely were taking 95 percent of the fish."
I lifted the entire above paragraph from, https://www.nativetimes.com/90-news/wildlife/9575-boldt-decision-has-rippling-effects-40-years-later
_________________________
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill

"So it goes." Kurt Vonnegut jr.

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#1028981 - 04/22/20 08:03 PM Re: 20-21 WA Salmon Seasons Announced [Re: RUNnGUN]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
When the treaties were written it is likely that the tribes got 95% of the fish. The interpretation of the treaty language was based on what was understood at the time.

The State has recently made the argument to the Supremes that they could entirely destroy a run of fish and still be in compliance with the treaties. The Supremes didn't see it that way.

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#1028982 - 04/22/20 08:12 PM Re: 20-21 WA Salmon Seasons Announced [Re: Carcassman]
blackmouth Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2713
Loc: right place/wrong time
Well I suppose if you say so it must be so. wink
_________________________
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill

"So it goes." Kurt Vonnegut jr.

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#1028996 - 04/23/20 07:22 AM Re: 20-21 WA Salmon Seasons Announced [Re: RUNnGUN]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7412
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The treaties were written in 1850s. There were damn few non-Indians in the whole state and they had more important things to do than fish. The Indians provided the fish and they (Tribes) also fished for subsistence.

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#1028997 - 04/23/20 07:49 AM Re: 20-21 WA Salmon Seasons Announced [Re: RUNnGUN]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
At the time of the signing of the treaties I seem recall that the non-Indian population was around 10,000. It of course has grown a bit since then.

curt

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#1029003 - 04/23/20 08:48 AM Re: 20-21 WA Salmon Seasons Announced [Re: RUNnGUN]
Tug 3 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 260
Loc: Tumwater
The Bpldt Decision is pretty much cast in stone. What has happened is our salmon have disappeared for reasons most of us know, but disagree on a fix. If we reverted in a mythical time machine back to 1974 I think that most of us would agree that we were in a salmon bonanza.

Looking back on Boldt, I think I remember that the decision was upheld by a 5 to 4 slim majority. So, four learned' supremes didn't agree with the final decision. Curiouusly, some years back the 111th U.S. Distirct Court (I think) in Wyoming decided the exact opposite of Boldt. Indians were denied a right to hunt off reservation because their "Rights" were extinguished when the congress made them U.S. Citizens. This was done after Boldt.

What we need are more fish, then everybody wins. Given the state of our management at both the federal and state levels, I don't have much hope for rebuilding salmon/steelhead populations. Drastic political moves may be more important than the status quo biology.

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#1029007 - 04/23/20 09:55 AM Re: 20-21 WA Salmon Seasons Announced [Re: RUNnGUN]
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Blackmouth,

You know it's not a matter of what we informed Piscatorial members say. It's a matter of federal case law. You lifted one paragraph from a 2014 news article that doesn't provide sufficient context to thoroughly explain the ruling. I'd be one of the first to admit that the outcome of US v WA is anything but intuitive. I was initially confused and taken aback when it came out in 1974, but I got a copy, read it, studied it, and then read the cited case law going back to 1895, and was personally involved in post-ruling court hearings as the state and tribes were figuring out how implementation would look like going forward.

When I posted that ". . . the feds and the courts saw it differently" I wasn't about to try and explain it completely. It simply does not fit a 20 second sound bite or single paragraph format. It's a complex set of history and federal case law. Don't take my word for it; there's plenty of reading that you can inform yourself with if you wish. But cherry picking a couple or a handful of paragraphs from the record will only keep you misinformed.

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#1029014 - 04/23/20 10:52 AM Re: 20-21 WA Salmon Seasons Announced [Re: RUNnGUN]
blackmouth Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/05/04
Posts: 2713
Loc: right place/wrong time
Salmo g.

I have been studying and reading about this case since before it was initially decided. We, you and I, have debated it ad nauseam. I know where you stand on this issue and I would hope that you know where I stand on it. I would never have brought it up however when a post is made that is nonsensical I sometimes choose to illustrate that posters errors. Not just for the sake of the poster but for the entire board. After I had shown the posters errors for some reason you chose to join the party, and then one thing lead to another.

I am so pleased that you chose not "to try and explain completely" as I have heard it all before. I also choose not to explain it all to you completely as you have heard my side before. Now as far as my quotes go if you or anyone wanted to read the context in which they were originally used that would have been easy to do as I posted links to the essays from which they came. But as we know some people find it easier to simply read a couple of paragraphs from a post and remain misinformed.
_________________________
"The best argument against democracy is a five-minute conversation with the average voter."
Winston Churchill

"So it goes." Kurt Vonnegut jr.

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#1029020 - 04/23/20 01:15 PM Re: 20-21 WA Salmon Seasons Announced [Re: RUNnGUN]
slabhunter Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 01/17/04
Posts: 3742
Loc: Sheltona Beach
Tug,
We need fewer intercepts in Northern fisheries.

I volunteered for years to help restore the riparian zone here in the South Sound. Fed chum, used as a biological filter, above a chinook pond until they were moved.

Harvest Management is to worked up over paper fish. PA is the Chair @ PFMC. No wonder very few return.

None of that take was there when the Treaties were signed.

The closed, Winter/Spring chinook are funded by a 10 dollar increase rolled in the license fee. At an earlier NOF meeting Staff said there would be no make up season for the closed fisheries.

Time to make fishing in terminal areas a thing again. When stocks self sort.
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When we are forgotten, we cease to exist .
Share your outdoor skills.

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#1029041 - 04/23/20 08:52 PM Re: 20-21 WA Salmon Seasons Announced [Re: Smalma]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Originally Posted By: Smalma
At the time of the signing of the treaties I seem recall that the non-Indian population was around 10,000. It of course has grown a bit since then.

curt


And apart from some orcas, there was nobody in the ocean low-holin' ALL the kings, either.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1029077 - 04/24/20 08:34 PM Re: 20-21 WA Salmon Seasons Announced [Re: RUNnGUN]
Blu13 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 11/26/03
Posts: 213
Has anyone found the Coastal River seasons? Queets, Hoh, Quileute etc? I don't see them on the NOF site. I tried Montesano a few weeks ago but they were closed.

I do see the Tribe schedule.

Thanks

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#1029096 - 04/25/20 09:18 AM Re: 20-21 WA Salmon Seasons Announced [Re: slabhunter]
Tug 3 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 260
Loc: Tumwater
Slabhunter,

I totally agree with you about major reductions in the interception of our salmon. I think it's ironic that our own state citizens can go to SE Alaska and harvest their own state's listed species for profit. If I were king, I'd also vastly reduce the pinniped numbers plus the over populations of some sea birds.

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