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#1031617 - 06/08/20 08:18 AM WDFW: Join us for the "FRAUD AND BULLSH&T SHOW!"
Bay wolf Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 10/26/12
Posts: 1065
Loc: Graham, WA
Hey Guys and Gals. Donít forget to tune-in for the:

!!! WDFW FRAUD AND BULLSH%T SHOW !!!

JUNE 9TH AT 9 A.M.

Keeping in the traditions of pretending and illusion, WDFW has put together another GREAT SPECTACLE, where they intend to fool the public into believing THEY ARE PART OF THE PROCESS!

STARRING: PUPPET MASTER RON WARREN
and his talking puppet Susewind

Co-starring the famous cast of characters from WDFW.


Tomorrow, 9 June at 9am, they are holding the 2020-21 rules hearing. There will be time for, believe it or not, PUBLIC COMMENT!

As we all know, this is pure BULL. They hide behind locked doors and let the tribes dictate our season. Already sent the List of Agreed to Fisheries to NOAA, and the rules pamphlet is at the press as we write this!

SO, WHAT IN THE HELL IS PUBLIC COMMENT ON THE SEASON FOR?

Well, there IS some comment that we can give. WE CAN TELL THEM THIS IS BULL!

And let them know, we know. Tell them to FIX THE BROKEN CO-MANAGEMENT PROCESS!


HERE IS THE LINK TO REGISTER FOR THE MEETING AND SIGN UP FOR PUBLIC COMMENT:

CR-102 RULES HEARING REGISTRATION

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#1031835 - 06/11/20 12:34 PM Re: WDFW: Join us for the "FRAUD AND BULLSH&T SHOW!" [Re: Bay wolf]
Waterboy Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 07/25/06
Posts: 464
Don't forget the show resumes again this afternoon at 1pm!!!!

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#1031842 - 06/11/20 12:54 PM Re: WDFW: Join us for the "FRAUD AND BULLSH&T SHOW!" [Re: Bay wolf]
Waterboy Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 07/25/06
Posts: 464
Only 15 people signed up. One commissioner said, "well I see we don't have hundreds."

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#1031846 - 06/11/20 01:01 PM Re: WDFW: Join us for the "FRAUD AND BULLSH&T SHOW!" [Re: Bay wolf]
Waterboy Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 07/25/06
Posts: 464
Now up to 30 people joined.

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#1031851 - 06/11/20 01:15 PM Re: WDFW: Join us for the "FRAUD AND BULLSH&T SHOW!" [Re: Bay wolf]
Waterboy Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 07/25/06
Posts: 464
Up to 55 now.

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#1031867 - 06/11/20 03:30 PM Re: WDFW: Join us for the "FRAUD AND BULLSH&T SHOW!" [Re: Bay wolf]
OceanSun Online   content
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 07/01/04
Posts: 1205
Loc: North Creek
Perhaps there would have been more show up if they didn't schedule it on the one single day we can go shrimping.

And... how would people even know about such meetings if they are not regulars on a bulletin board such as this. Did they email every license holder in the state to promote?
_________________________
. . . and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and have dominion over the fish of the sea . . .

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#1031887 - 06/11/20 07:29 PM Re: WDFW: Join us for the "FRAUD AND BULLSH&T SHOW!" [Re: Waterboy]
Salman Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 705
Originally Posted By: Waterboy
Only 15 people signed up. One commissioner said, "well I see we don't have hundreds."

Are they really that dumb? Those 15 people speak for everyone. Why not have it in a chat room if their concerned about numbers?
_________________________
Why build in the flood plain?

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#1031903 - 06/12/20 08:54 AM Re: WDFW: Join us for the "FRAUD AND BULLSH&T SHOW!" [Re: Bay wolf]
Waterboy Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 07/25/06
Posts: 464
Schedule is here:
https://wdfw.wa.gov/about/commission/meetings#upcoming


Chair Carpenter asked Ron Warren about the state getting their own permit. Ron basically asked the commissioner if it was willing to sacrifice 2 years of no fishing pursuing a permit? Ron said that it is just too big a mountain to climb. That the tribes permit is the best option.

My comment/question is why can't the state get it's own permit, start the process, and still continue to with the current season setting process? Can you not do both at the same time?

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#1031909 - 06/12/20 12:00 PM Re: WDFW: Join us for the "FRAUD AND BULLSH&T SHOW!" [Re: Waterboy]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2856
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Waterboy
Schedule is here:
https://wdfw.wa.gov/about/commission/meetings#upcoming


Chair Carpenter asked Ron Warren about the state getting their own permit. Ron basically asked the commissioner if it was willing to sacrifice 2 years of no fishing pursuing a permit? Ron said that it is just too big a mountain to climb. That the tribes permit is the best option.

My comment/question is why can't the state get it's own permit, start the process, and still continue to with the current season setting process? Can you not do both at the same time?


And that is the Boogie Man pulled out of the closet whenever the idea of WDFW obtaining its own permit is raised.

Would NOAA/NMFS actually be willing to NOT find a way to facilitate a State fishery should the State seek its own permit? Maybe that question needs to be posed directly to Barry Thom - NOAA's Regional Director.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1031910 - 06/12/20 12:23 PM Re: WDFW: Join us for the "FRAUD AND BULLSH&T SHOW!" [Re: Bay wolf]
Waterboy Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 07/25/06
Posts: 464
You can't find out if NOAA/NMFS would say no unless you file for it. What's the worst that can happen? We would just go back to what we have now. Do the tribes have the authority/right to not allow the state a fishery through their permit if the state filed for their own? Or is it NOAA/NMFS that would say no to a state fishery if the state filed a permit....until said permit was approved? Like you are only allowed to be on one permit at a time? I just don't see why the state can't file for a permit and still do what they do each year for a state fishery currently.

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#1031912 - 06/12/20 12:39 PM Re: WDFW: Join us for the "FRAUD AND BULLSH&T SHOW!" [Re: Waterboy]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2856
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Waterboy
You can't find out if NOAA/NMFS would say no unless you file for it. What's the worst that can happen? We would just go back to what we have now. Do the tribes have the authority/right to not allow the state a fishery through their permit if the state filed for their own? Or is it NOAA/NMFS that would say no to a state fishery if the state filed a permit....until said permit was approved? Like you are only allowed to be on one permit at a time? I just don't see why the state can't file for a permit and still do what they do each year for a state fishery currently.


Has Ron Warren or anyone else within WDFW written NOAA/NMFS asking that very question and received an official signed response that there would be NO State fishery pending issuance of a permit?

One would think that if such a record of question/response exits it would have been presented to the Commission. I'd love to see it!

Then again, why didn't Chair Carpenter or one of the other Commissioners ask???
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1031920 - 06/12/20 01:15 PM Re: WDFW: Join us for the "FRAUD AND BULLSH&T SHOW!" [Re: Larry B]
Tug 3 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 142
I' think it's time to ask one of our "friendly" legislators, from a district that has suffered fishing cuts, these hard questions, so that they can help the situation. I'm not sure who that might be, but I'm fairly sure who they are not. Maybe it should be one of our congressional reps? It's an election year.

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#1031924 - 06/12/20 01:51 PM Re: WDFW: Join us for the "FRAUD AND BULLSH&T SHOW!" [Re: Bay wolf]
Waterboy Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 07/25/06
Posts: 464
It was after the public comment period was over when Chair Carpenter asked Ron Warren about a state permit or I would of asked why not go for a state permit while continue doing what the state is doing in negotiating a fishery. In my opinion I got the feeling that Ron Warren did not want to upset the tribes by the state filing for their own permit. He was almost emotional over the state not trying to get their own permit in my opinion. It was recorded. You should watch it when it is posted. They said something about it being televised.

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#1031927 - 06/12/20 01:56 PM Re: WDFW: Join us for the "FRAUD AND BULLSH&T SHOW!" [Re: Larry B]
Waterboy Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 07/25/06
Posts: 464
Originally Posted By: Larry B
Originally Posted By: Waterboy
You can't find out if NOAA/NMFS would say no unless you file for it. What's the worst that can happen? We would just go back to what we have now. Do the tribes have the authority/right to not allow the state a fishery through their permit if the state filed for their own? Or is it NOAA/NMFS that would say no to a state fishery if the state filed a permit....until said permit was approved? Like you are only allowed to be on one permit at a time? I just don't see why the state can't file for a permit and still do what they do each year for a state fishery currently.


Has Ron Warren or anyone else within WDFW written NOAA/NMFS asking that very question and received an official signed response that there would be NO State fishery pending issuance of a permit?





I am trying to educate myself. So is this why the state doesn't pursue it's own permit cause they think NOAA/NMFS would not allow the state to fish during the process of deciding on issuance of a permit? So if the state filed for their own permit NOAA/NMFS would not allow the state to fish on the tribes permit?


Edited by Waterboy (06/12/20 01:57 PM)

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#1031930 - 06/12/20 02:11 PM Re: WDFW: Join us for the "FRAUD AND BULLSH&T SHOW!" [Re: Waterboy]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2856
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Waterboy
Originally Posted By: Larry B
Originally Posted By: Waterboy
You can't find out if NOAA/NMFS would say no unless you file for it. What's the worst that can happen? We would just go back to what we have now. Do the tribes have the authority/right to not allow the state a fishery through their permit if the state filed for their own? Or is it NOAA/NMFS that would say no to a state fishery if the state filed a permit....until said permit was approved? Like you are only allowed to be on one permit at a time? I just don't see why the state can't file for a permit and still do what they do each year for a state fishery currently.


Has Ron Warren or anyone else within WDFW written NOAA/NMFS asking that very question and received an official signed response that there would be NO State fishery pending issuance of a permit?





I am trying to educate myself. So is this why the state doesn't pursue it's own permit cause they think NOAA/NMFS would not allow the state to fish during the process of deciding on issuance of a permit? So if the state filed for their own permit NOAA/NMFS would not allow the state to fish on the tribes permit?


It might be that the tribes wouldn't allow the State to piggyback on their permit which would then put NOAA/NMFS in the awkward postiion of being the gatekeeper for a State fishery.

While I would like to think the political pressure would generate some form of interim permit I also recall the recent history of WDFW's early winter steelhead program and how the WFC lawsuit came about because NOAA/NMFS didn't timely review WDFW's submittals.

Also, I do think upper management at WDFW is afraid to unset the status quo.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1031932 - 06/12/20 02:31 PM Re: WDFW: Join us for the "FRAUD AND BULLSH&T SHOW!" [Re: Bay wolf]
Waterboy Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 07/25/06
Posts: 464
Well after watching the NOF discussion yesterday it is pretty clear in regards to NOF and the 10 year Chinook management plan that WDFW is just spinning it's wheels. It was good to hear Commissioner McIsaac saying something to the effect that this has been going on for 3 years or more and clearly wdfw dealings with the tribes on these topics is not working and new ideas are needed.

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#1031944 - 06/12/20 05:30 PM Re: WDFW: Join us for the "FRAUD AND BULLSH&T SHOW!" [Re: Bay wolf]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 5855
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I simply cannot understand how one side can apply for a permit without consideration of the other side's fishery. Each fishery affects the other and all succeeding fisheries.

The one way that it makes logical sense is that the fisheries are ALL fixed quotas. Hit that number and you are closed. Because to fish any other way requires that all fisheries be considered.

You can't fish a rate, because, again, the run sizes are different if there is a preceding fishery.

The State and Feds simply don't want to challenge the Tribes in any way, shape, or form.

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#1031945 - 06/12/20 06:00 PM Re: WDFW: Join us for the "FRAUD AND BULLSH&T SHOW!" [Re: Carcassman]
Larry B Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/22/09
Posts: 2856
Loc: University Place and Whidbey I...
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
I simply cannot understand how one side can apply for a permit without consideration of the other side's fishery. Each fishery affects the other and all succeeding fisheries.

The State and Feds simply don't want to challenge the Tribes in any way, shape, or form.


CM:

While I generally agree with your first point I am unsure of your position on the State applying for its own permit. If there was an emoji for head scratching I'd use it here. Just my thought but the State having its own permit would give it a more equal status in the season setting process. I will further opine that fixing the NOF process would defuse much of this angst.

As to the second - yes.
_________________________
Remember to immediately record your catch or you may become the catch!

It's the person who has done nothing who is sure nothing can be done. (Ewing)

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#1031950 - 06/12/20 07:09 PM Re: WDFW: Join us for the "FRAUD AND BULLSH&T SHOW!" [Re: Bay wolf]
fishkisser99 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/12/99
Posts: 517
Loc: Eastsound, WA, USA
Sorry--you're white. Only reds can fish here.

In this river.
In this bay.
In this state.

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#1031955 - 06/12/20 07:44 PM Re: WDFW: Join us for the "FRAUD AND BULLSH&T SHOW!" [Re: Bay wolf]
darth baiter Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 103
Loc: United States
The state can apply for their own permit but it has a lot of potential downsides attached in addition to the time lag between submittance and approval. The time line is layed out in the permit process for the state fishing plan. There are required analysis, review, comment period etc that drags this out that is not the same for the tribal permit. NOAA/NMFS can't just expedite things because the state wants to fish. Not following the rules would immediately mean lawsuit by somebody. That said a state permit would probably have less uncertainty about an upcoming season structure as this would be outlined in the plan which is good. However, its probably unrealistic to think that these seasons would be less restrictive than what has happened in recent years. Its more likely that they would even be more restrictive. NOAA/NMFS in evaluating the state plan would do so with on eye recovery of ESA species (Chinook, SRKW etc) and on the assurance of protecting treaty fishing rights. IE if the state fishes with these seasons is recovery of ESA jeopardized or is treaty fishing rights at risk? There are established values for acceptable ERs, escapements etc that if followed are allowed for ESA recovery. However, treaty fishing rights are not well defined anywhere. Hence, the uncertainty means that the edge is towards more treaty fishing not less than what has occurred recently. Consequently, these issues take priority over state fishing. NOAA/NMFS is not going to be a referee of 50:50 splits. After all, the states and the tribes have presented joint plans that were approved that aren't 50:50. NOAA/NMFS is definitely not going to swing things towards this in their analysis/approval as they have no obligation to do so and it is precedent that it hasn't been 50:50 anyway. In their evaluation of separate state and tribal plans, they will give the "ties" in uncertainty towards the tribes. So a state plan that gets approval may not be as wonderful as some hoped. IMO. Flame on.

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