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#1043426 - 12/10/20 01:42 PM Re: 2020 Modern Deer Camp [Re: elparquito]
stlhdr1 Offline
BUCK NASTY!!

Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 6180
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: elparquito
The Kimber is sporting a VX-6 4-24x52. It as the CDS reticle system on that supposedly will let me dial it out to 600 yards or so. It's sighted in at 200. I'm guessing one of Keith's Klangers is gonna seem awfully damn small at the distances he's talking about!


That's the scope I have on my 300 Ultra mag and 6.5-284. You will be pleasantly surprised at 24x how well you can hold on a 4" square at 1000 yards.

On another note, you will have roughly 33 MOA of travel in the scope which should get you out to 7-800 yards with a 200 zero. If you have the 20 MOA rail you will easily have enough travel for 1000 yards, but the concern you'll contend with is velocity consistency from factory loads. For the lack of better words factory loads tend to spray a little because they're not tuned to the harmonic velocity your barrel likely prefers. The vertical dispersion will likely be pretty radical (roughly 2.5-3.5ft) at a 1000 yards as well due to the inconsistencies in velocities..

Hence the reason I'm a freak about precise handloading...

Keith
_________________________
If Trump can't do it, no one can.....


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#1043431 - 12/10/20 02:04 PM Re: 2020 Modern Deer Camp [Re: elparquito]
stlhdr1 Offline
BUCK NASTY!!

Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 6180
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: elparquito

Fire up that magic softwares of yours and tell me what I should be reloading for my Kimber!

....not that I own any reloading stuff, or would have a clue how to reload.

What "base" would you start with if you owned that Kimber?

A curious mind wants to know.

Even better, just make up some loads for me for when I get there. You should have worked your magic by that time.


It's not quite that easy. We would want to go through a few steps to determine the harmonic node / velocity node your barrel likes. We'd start with a ladder test that you load in .5 grain increments. This accomplishes finding how hot you can load to (eventually showing pressure signs) and also will tell us how it's vertically dispersing.

Believe it or not this test is ran as far out as the weather conditions will allow, and if a calm day we'd test it at 800-1000 yards as it amplifies the evidence of vertical dispersion. In that ladder test, we'd load 2 of each bullet charge and sharpie the bullet a specific color for each .5 grain increment. Example, 65.0 grains red, 65.5 blue, 66.0 green, etc. We'd set up a 5x5' target and cover it with white butcher paper and draw a verticle line down the center with a bullseye in the middle. First we'd shoot a couple dummy loads from powder charges at the beginning of the ladder test to get you vertically near bullseye, then start on a clean slate target. We'd start sending the color coded bullets from above, the color coding helps us keep track of the powder charge on the white butcher paper.

As we shoot and allow the barrel to cool between shots, we watch impacts and the only thing we pay attention to is the vertical disperson. 99 out of 100 times you will find in that ladder test 1 grain of powder charge this shows roughly 1/2 MOA vertical disperson, then we'd shoot the 2nd ladder test loaded identical to the first to verify the evidence. For example if we were shooting 800 yards, you'd see roughly 4" of vertical disperson which is 1/2 MOA. If it's a great shooting gun and the barrel loved the bullet of choice, we could even see 1/4 MOA. Most factory guns will produce 1/2 MOA imho, at least those that I've loaded for so far.

After the ladder test is done, and we found that powder charge that has the least vertical dispersion then we'd go back and load in that powder charge and run a seating depth test. Seating depth is how close we seat the bullet to the lands. We'd load 3 bullets .005" off the lands, 3 at .030" off, 3 at .055" off and 3 at .080" off and shoot those at 200 yards to look for the tightest groups. Somewhere in that seating depth test we'd see grouping tighten up left to right. We'd do this while measuring velocities with my Lab Radar to get an idea of the Extreme spread (ES) and Standard deviation (SD) of that powder charge. We'd likely see velocities with an extreme spread less than 15fps and SD around 5fps. A SD of 5fps or less will affect the vertical dispersion rough 1/2 MOA at 1000 or 1.25", if the SD was 10fps it would be 1 MOA at 1000 which is 2.5". The scope you have is a .25" click scope so when we start shooting 1000 yards 1 click is 2.5" left, right up or down so it's super super important that we have all the above data done first...

Then you'd have a gun that can shoot some distance with accuracy.. Last would be to download Ballistic AE on your phone and we'd set that up to the gun/load so it would give you the correct adjustments in MOA for the distance of choice.

SD chart for reference...


Keith
_________________________
If Trump can't do it, no one can.....


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#1043436 - 12/10/20 02:23 PM Re: 2020 Modern Deer Camp [Re: NickD90]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4096
You might wanna put a muzzle break on your light weight.

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#1043467 - 12/10/20 06:01 PM Re: 2020 Modern Deer Camp [Re: stlhdr1]
NickD90 Offline
Shooting Instructor for hire

Registered: 10/26/10
Posts: 7155
Loc: Snohomish, WA
Originally Posted By: stlhdr1
Originally Posted By: elparquito

Fire up that magic softwares of yours and tell me what I should be reloading for my Kimber!

....not that I own any reloading stuff, or would have a clue how to reload.

What "base" would you start with if you owned that Kimber?

A curious mind wants to know.

Even better, just make up some loads for me for when I get there. You should have worked your magic by that time.


It's not quite that easy. We would want to go through a few steps to determine the harmonic node / velocity node your barrel likes. We'd start with a ladder test that you load in .5 grain increments. This accomplishes finding how hot you can load to (eventually showing pressure signs) and also will tell us how it's vertically dispersing.

Believe it or not this test is ran as far out as the weather conditions will allow, and if a calm day we'd test it at 800-1000 yards as it amplifies the evidence of vertical dispersion. In that ladder test, we'd load 2 of each bullet charge and sharpie the bullet a specific color for each .5 grain increment. Example, 65.0 grains red, 65.5 blue, 66.0 green, etc. We'd set up a 5x5' target and cover it with white butcher paper and draw a verticle line down the center with a bullseye in the middle. First we'd shoot a couple dummy loads from powder charges at the beginning of the ladder test to get you vertically near bullseye, then start on a clean slate target. We'd start sending the color coded bullets from above, the color coding helps us keep track of the powder charge on the white butcher paper.

As we shoot and allow the barrel to cool between shots, we watch impacts and the only thing we pay attention to is the vertical disperson. 99 out of 100 times you will find in that ladder test 1 grain of powder charge this shows roughly 1/2 MOA vertical disperson, then we'd shoot the 2nd ladder test loaded identical to the first to verify the evidence. For example if we were shooting 800 yards, you'd see roughly 4" of vertical disperson which is 1/2 MOA. If it's a great shooting gun and the barrel loved the bullet of choice, we could even see 1/4 MOA. Most factory guns will produce 1/2 MOA imho, at least those that I've loaded for so far.

After the ladder test is done, and we found that powder charge that has the least vertical dispersion then we'd go back and load in that powder charge and run a seating depth test. Seating depth is how close we seat the bullet to the lands. We'd load 3 bullets .005" off the lands, 3 at .030" off, 3 at .055" off and 3 at .080" off and shoot those at 200 yards to look for the tightest groups. Somewhere in that seating depth test we'd see grouping tighten up left to right. We'd do this while measuring velocities with my Lab Radar to get an idea of the Extreme spread (ES) and Standard deviation (SD) of that powder charge. We'd likely see velocities with an extreme spread less than 15fps and SD around 5fps. A SD of 5fps or less will affect the vertical dispersion rough 1/2 MOA at 1000 or 1.25", if the SD was 10fps it would be 1 MOA at 1000 which is 2.5". The scope you have is a .25" click scope so when we start shooting 1000 yards 1 click is 2.5" left, right up or down so it's super super important that we have all the above data done first...

Then you'd have a gun that can shoot some distance with accuracy.. Last would be to download Ballistic AE on your phone and we'd set that up to the gun/load so it would give you the correct adjustments in MOA for the distance of choice.

SD chart for reference...


Keith


Nice write up. I actually learned something for a change. Check your PM.
_________________________
“If the military were fighting for our freedom, they would be storming Capitol Hill”. – FleaFlickr02

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#1043474 - 12/10/20 07:07 PM Re: 2020 Modern Deer Camp [Re: NickD90]
stlhdr1 Offline
BUCK NASTY!!

Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 6180
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Thanks, replied to the PM...

Keith
_________________________
If Trump can't do it, no one can.....


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#1043484 - 12/10/20 09:14 PM Re: 2020 Modern Deer Camp [Re: NickD90]
snit Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 1781
Loc: Wenatchee, WA
Yeah Keith, thanks for taking the time to write that up!

I have always wanted to get better at LR shooting; well I should say learn real LR shooting. I have the Leica HD-B's and don't utilize them to their potential. Where I hunt, if a deer is within 450 yards it's definitely in trouble. But beyond being dead on at 300 yards, knowing where my gun shoots at 450 yards (B&C reticle), having a great load for my rifle (well, I will repo MY rifle back after X-mas, as the boy is getting a pretty darn good present) plus having good glass, I haven't progressed very far in many years.

Tons to learn on this subject, but I understand the concept more. BTW..I hate pulling the trigger on a rifle! Always have, so I can vouch with Too-Many on the topic of trigger pull and muzzle brake too. I want the trigger pull below 2# with no creep. I have a couple of L579's that fit the bill nicely in that dept, and even my single barrel trap guns are set at 24oz. Added a brake to my short mag and it really reduced the jump/slap. Kids 300WM (Xmas present) has a brake as well.
_________________________
..."the clock looked at me just like the devil in disguise"...

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#1043489 - 12/11/20 07:17 AM Re: 2020 Modern Deer Camp [Re: snit]
stlhdr1 Offline
BUCK NASTY!!

Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 6180
Loc: Vancouver, WA
You’re welcome Snit.

Speaking of triggers, I fell in love with the Timney Calvin elite 2 stage trigger. It’s 8 ounces on the first stage then there’s a wall and it’s a 1 pound second stage. In other words, I’d be scared to death of a one stage one pound trigger. But having it as two stage makes sense. You wanna talk about adding to the ability in precision, it makes a huge difference in how you can shoot. No squeeze, squeeze and squeeze them boom as your wandering all over the bullseye anymore. I have them in my long range guns.

The discussion of recoil is an important one, if its a gun that kicks and a person is a flincher they'll never be able to accomplish long range shooting. It takes the calmest and most relaxed motions. This is part of the reason I stepped down to a 6.5-284. A high Ballistic Coefficient bullet (I shoot the Berger 156 EOL with a G1 BC of .679 and G7 BC of .347) will hold velocity and energy further out. For example, one might compare the 6.5-284 to a 7MM. At closer ranges the 7MM holds more velocity and energy but with the average bullet BC that's factory loaded will end up having less velocity/energy at say 600 yards than the high BC bullet I shoot out of the 6.5-284. The drag of the bullet in flight is what's mainly affected.

When it comes to recoil, I shoot the 6.5-284 without a break and there's minimal if any kick, if I put the break on a 8 year old can shoot it. My 300 RUM requires at minimum a break and with that you can't be ANYWHERE near this gun when it goes off without hearing protection. So I opted to put a 30 caliber suppressor on it. It now kicks like a 243 and sounds like a balloon popping at best. It's actually the perfect combo other than the barrel length is obnoxious with the suppressor, 26" barrel and 10" suppressor makes it a pain in the ass to pack in the woods. But the whole set up is at 9 pounds with a bipod so I've defied the heavy ass magnum gun.

I'm contemplating rebarreling the RUM and putting a 28 nosler barrel on it, add the freebore and set myself up to shoot the 195 Berger EOL's. This combination would make a solid 1200-1300 yard gun and no doubt a gun that could ring steel at a mile...

Keith
_________________________
If Trump can't do it, no one can.....


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#1043504 - 12/11/20 09:41 AM Re: 2020 Modern Deer Camp [Re: NickD90]
elparquito Offline
The Chosen One

Registered: 02/09/00
Posts: 14333
Loc: Margaritaville
The kimber has a break on it, but I'd love to put a suppressor on it, but that would be like putting a 2lb dumbbell on a spaghetti noodle. The barrel is so damn thin that any weight on the front of it would have to make it wobble. No way it wouldn't.

Here's Kimber's very own take on how to shoot their rifle:

https://www.kimberamerica.com/dealer/blog/tips-for-shooting-lightweight-kimber-rifles/

The rifle weighs 4 pounds. With a scope, it's not hitting 6.

It has an adjustable trigger and I've got it set as light as it will go without the trigger slipping/firing when butt-stocked slammed. There's not a whole of metal on metal contact! I have no idea what the weight is, but it's close to 2 or less.

I really want a suppressed hunting rifle. No idea what I'd get...but I know that I like the custom guns and I don't like the idea of spending 4-5 thousand on a rifle and another grand on the suppressor and another grand on a scope. I'd be $7,000 in on this stick. Ouch. I don't hunt that much to warrant that.

Both my Rem 700's had trigger work done on them and I'd probably have a new shooter to the rifle take a test run on the trigger before firing it. You look at these triggers wrong and they want to fire.

I'm not a flincher, but even with a break, the Kimber wears on you after a few rounds.

The Rem 7mm Mag has no break and it's a fvcking thumper. The .270 also has no break, but isn't bad with recoil.

I'd get both or either barrels threaded...but only specialty suppressors exist for these high-pressure calibers....are are SUPER expensive and SUPER hard to get.
_________________________

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#1043516 - 12/11/20 11:46 AM Re: 2020 Modern Deer Camp [Re: elparquito]
stlhdr1 Offline
BUCK NASTY!!

Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 6180
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: elparquito
The kimber has a break on it, but I'd love to put a suppressor on it, but that would be like putting a 2lb dumbbell on a spaghetti noodle. The barrel is so damn thin that any weight on the front of it would have to make it wobble. No way it wouldn't.

Here's Kimber's very own take on how to shoot their rifle:

https://www.kimberamerica.com/dealer/blog/tips-for-shooting-lightweight-kimber-rifles/

The rifle weighs 4 pounds. With a scope, it's not hitting 6.

It has an adjustable trigger and I've got it set as light as it will go without the trigger slipping/firing when butt-stocked slammed. There's not a whole of metal on metal contact! I have no idea what the weight is, but it's close to 2 or less.

I really want a suppressed hunting rifle. No idea what I'd get...but I know that I like the custom guns and I don't like the idea of spending 4-5 thousand on a rifle and another grand on the suppressor and another grand on a scope. I'd be $7,000 in on this stick. Ouch. I don't hunt that much to warrant that.

Both my Rem 700's had trigger work done on them and I'd probably have a new shooter to the rifle take a test run on the trigger before firing it. You look at these triggers wrong and they want to fire.

I'm not a flincher, but even with a break, the Kimber wears on you after a few rounds.

The Rem 7mm Mag has no break and it's a fvcking thumper. The .270 also has no break, but isn't bad with recoil.

I'd get both or either barrels threaded...but only specialty suppressors exist for these high-pressure calibers....are are SUPER expensive and SUPER hard to get.


I did the titanium 10" break for my RUM, only weighs 14 ounces. Just the length that's a bit obnoxious... But in most cases a suppressor will assist with accuracy more than not as it helps tame the harmonics of the barrel. Take your noodle barrel, it actually would show more help with it than a standard to bull barrel. So it helps in more than one way. My barrel on my rum is carbon fiber wrapped so it's on the light side as well, adding the suppressor assisted in tightening the groups.

Here's an example of a 4 shot group at 200 yards from the 300 RUM with suppressor shooting 208 grain Hornady ELD-M's at 3005fps.


I could really turn that 7 mag into a thumper if I loaded it like I did Craigs gun, that caliber loves it some Retumbo. His gun eats up 70.0 grains of Retumbo with a 168 Berger VLD and makes roughly 3066fps. It's a smasher/ripper/thumper but one heck of an accurate rifle too. He had it custom built on a defiance action and Benchmark barrel. Spits darts!

Keith
_________________________
If Trump can't do it, no one can.....


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#1043517 - 12/11/20 11:50 AM Re: 2020 Modern Deer Camp [Re: NickD90]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 27229
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
You guys have sure fagged thefuck out of this thread!

rofl

Fish on...

Todd

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#1043520 - 12/11/20 12:55 PM Re: 2020 Modern Deer Camp [Re: NickD90]
Driftin' Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 04/29/06
Posts: 1727
Loc: Offshore
TLDR Summary--

As Parker was informed previously, physics applies when chambering milk bottle volumes of powder into flyweight rifles. Unlearning the resultant flinching can be a challenge. That .270 Mountain Rifle + Fixed 6X + M1 will fill your freezer with anything treading upon the continent if you can arrange the party. Seen it. Repeatedly. *grin*

Have a personal preference for SA chamberings under 30 cal for numerous reasons previously stated. Chunk match grade rifles with Howitzer barrels are not fun to tote from the truck to the bench rest much less all day through creek bottoms and timberline at 6-10k above MSL in up-close hide-n-seek. Those that do choose to generally don't get very far from their ride. Apples/oranges.

Reloading isn't complicated (unless you've recently had the inkling to look for components), particularly for hunting fodder. The rifle will quickly tell you what it likes... and what it don't. Ladders not required. Have never seen a concrete-topped bench rest in the mountains. Have used Barnes X's since their inception for stellar terminal performance in the field. LRX's made 'em even more better. I'll only push Scenars and their svelte CnC kin at paper for fun. YMMV.

Glass just needs to steer the bullet to a target with repeatable results. Depending upon one's budget, a fixed 6X SWFA with mil-quad reticle purchased on Black Friday or 34mm Schmidt & Bender on a mortgage will fill the bill with the latter impressing your pards and the elk even more. JBM Ballistics solves the mysterious physics of external ballistics when coupled with such optics/reticles. Actually pushing pills down range in field conditions will learn ya on confirming JBM and driftin' atmospherics.

Old Remington triggers clean up nicely. Drop-in aftermarket options are even better.

You're all fags. *grin*

To each his own. It's all good....




















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#1043521 - 12/11/20 01:23 PM Re: 2020 Modern Deer Camp [Re: Driftin']
stlhdr1 Offline
BUCK NASTY!!

Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 6180
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: Driftin'
TLDR Summary--

The rifle will quickly tell you what it likes... and what it don't. Ladders not required.



I disagree with this statement, guns like all the pills you put through them and most work perfectly inside 350 yards. Precision sadly isn't that easy but never true'r words from a 3-400 yard shooter... moose

Keith
_________________________
If Trump can't do it, no one can.....


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#1043522 - 12/11/20 01:32 PM Re: 2020 Modern Deer Camp [Re: Todd]
stlhdr1 Offline
BUCK NASTY!!

Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 6180
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: Todd
You guys have sure fagged thefuck out of this thread!

rofl

Fish on...

Todd


Sorry Todd! I'll dismiss from fagging it any further....

Keith rofl
_________________________
If Trump can't do it, no one can.....


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#1043529 - 12/11/20 02:18 PM Re: 2020 Modern Deer Camp [Re: NickD90]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4096
It's obvious to me that Keith knows his chit.

















































































That must make him the head fag.

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#1043593 - 12/12/20 10:30 AM Re: 2020 Modern Deer Camp [Re: elparquito]
Direct-Drive Offline
ExtenZe Field Tester

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 8025
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: elparquito
The Kimber is sporting a VX-6 4-24x52.

That's a lot of scope for the skinny Kimber.
Why not put that scope on a fat-barreled range gun ?
Sell Nick the Kimber so he'll stop with the poems.

I shot Black Bart's JP Rifles large frame AR in 6.5CM a few weeks ago.
Fun cartridge and that rifle shoots bugholes if you can hold it there.

I've since bought a Remington 700 Long Range 26" in 6.5CM.
The only one I could find was bead-blasted stainless, which I thought would be gawdy.
It's actually a great looking rifle in the Bell & Carlson black with gray webbing stock.
Should make a nice entry-level range gun.

Still working on getting glass and rings sorted out.

Looks like this...
_________________________
NO STEP ON SNEK

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#1043602 - 12/12/20 01:14 PM Re: 2020 Modern Deer Camp [Re: Direct-Drive]
stlhdr1 Offline
BUCK NASTY!!

Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 6180
Loc: Vancouver, WA
That's a great looking gun, love the idea of the 26" barrel too!

Keith
_________________________
If Trump can't do it, no one can.....


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#1043607 - 12/12/20 03:19 PM Re: 2020 Modern Deer Camp [Re: NickD90]
Direct-Drive Offline
ExtenZe Field Tester

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 8025
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Thanks Keith.
Now here's something that Paker could put that big scope on.
Christensen Mesa Long Range - street price about $1370
https://christensenarms.com/mesa-long-range/


Follow up



DD
Fagging up the thread and spending Paker's money !

smile
_________________________
NO STEP ON SNEK

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#1043648 - 12/13/20 02:04 PM Re: 2020 Modern Deer Camp [Re: NickD90]
WDFW X 1 = 0 Offline
My Area code makes me cooler than you

Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4096
DD get some of Bart's machined mounts...?

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#1043651 - 12/13/20 02:39 PM Re: 2020 Modern Deer Camp [Re: WDFW X 1 = 0]
Direct-Drive Offline
ExtenZe Field Tester

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 8025
Loc: Vancouver, WA
No, but I've heard about them.
Had a fun time time at his 600 yard range.
_________________________
NO STEP ON SNEK

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#1043652 - 12/13/20 02:49 PM Re: 2020 Modern Deer Camp [Re: NickD90]
elparquito Offline
The Chosen One

Registered: 02/09/00
Posts: 14333
Loc: Margaritaville
Deal

$1,500 cash for the Kimber and it is yours....or Nick’s.
_________________________

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