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#1047111 - 02/08/21 12:40 AM It IS time....
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
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"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
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#1047112 - 02/08/21 01:11 AM Re: It IS time.... [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
With guys like Slade Gorton and Doc Hastings long gone... and only THREE staunch dam-huggers among WA's Congressional delegation, perhaps some progress can be made in breaching the four Lower Snake Dams.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1047133 - 02/08/21 12:11 PM Re: It IS time.... [Re: eyeFISH]
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
Certainly encouraging, but I remain skeptical.

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#1047166 - 02/08/21 05:18 PM Re: It IS time.... [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1047167 - 02/08/21 05:31 PM Re: It IS time.... [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
https://www.hatchmag.com/articles/scientists-draft-letter-calling-governors-tear-down-lower/7715196

Amongst the letter's signatories is Jack Williams, emeritus senior scientist at Trout Unlimited; David Montgomery of the University of Washington, author of The King of Fish: The Thousand-Year Run of Salmon; James Lichatowich, noted salmon fisheries biologist and author of Salmon Without Rivers; Don Chapman, retired state and federal agency biologist; Richard Williams of the College of Idaho; Bruce Rieman and Peter Bisson, retired U.S. Forest Service scientists; Charles Petrosky, retired Idaho Department of Fish and Game biologist; and Howard Schaller, retired project leader for the Columbia River Fish and Wildlife Conservation Office at the U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service.


It is our collective opinion, based on overwhelming scientific evidence, that restoration of a free-flowing lower Snake River is essential to recovering wild Pacific salmon and steelhead in the basin. We base our opinion on our deep expertise in the science of salmon and steelhead conservation including decades of collaborative research that has withstood rigorous scientific review. Continued hatchery reform, habitat restoration and other actions are needed, but dam breaching is the essential cornerstone of a comprehensive, effective recovery strategy," the letter states.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1047171 - 02/08/21 09:11 PM Re: It IS time.... [Re: eyeFISH]
Streamer Offline
No Stars for You!

Registered: 11/08/06
Posts: 2271
Loc: T-Town
Originally Posted By: eyeFISH
With guys like Slade Gorton and Doc Hastings long gone... and only THREE staunch dam-huggers among WA's Congressional delegation, perhaps some progress can be made in breaching the four Lower Snake Dams.


Absolutely. It’s as good of a time as ever. The long-term benefits would certainly outweigh the current benefits. Let’s get a move on!
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#1047187 - 02/09/21 11:56 AM Re: It IS time.... [Re: eyeFISH]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 5074
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
02/09/2021

For sure, no new dams on any major salmon rivers, should be built....ie Chehalis River.

Just when you think that people have determined that there will not be a dam built, someone stirs the pot and its again a major force in Lewis County, AGAIN !!!!


Edited by DrifterWA (02/09/21 11:57 AM)
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#1047205 - 02/09/21 01:47 PM Re: It IS time.... [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
It's all about money and the "greater" good. Keeping the users of our fish and wildlife resources separated and fighting each other allows the other side to proceed.

Until somebody, and probably someplace like CA or the Mississippi flood plain, takes the bull by the horns and actually removes structures in the flood plain and pulls levees back to the 500 or 1,000 year plain, protecting investment will always win.

The San Francisco Bay area is close to huge flooding disaster as they have a bay full of houses, and an airport or two, just waiting for the Greenland icecap to melt followed by a huge rain on snow event in the Sierra like they had in the early 1860's when the water going out the Golden Gate was 20' higher than high tide. Chew on that one...

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#1047277 - 02/10/21 11:38 AM Re: It IS time.... [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4394
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Well to go electric ( autos / other ) the US would have to double its electric generating capacity not to say anything about what a massive transmission line upgrade it would require. Hydrogen manufacturing ( which would be better if the cost can be reduced ) again would require a doubling of electric generating capacity. So if no nuke, no coal, no natural gas, solar limited, wind generation capacity small, and no hydro then what? Coal oil stoves and lamps? While the Columbia Basin dams have not been good for fish they enabled the PNW economy and descent standard of living to our state and others. The minute that a viable alternative is found there will be changes with the dams but not all will go as flood control is a major function of the system. Some years back the dams got with in a fraction of an inch to having to bypass full flow at flood stage which would have created havoc from John Day down stream.

Want to hear screaming? Tell the urban areas that their power bill is tripling! Rural areas the same but they have long since thrown their hands in the air since PS began to dominate the state government. So you want changes in the dams? Support those who want a Manhattan Project for energy. Technology that is out there now and full blown effort to develop hydrogen as our primary fuel it could be done. It just takes a government that wants to get it done for the benefit of the people and environment. Frankly in the last 4 administrations other than hot air and a truck load of bs little is done. Five spot bet that it ain't gonna change anytime soon. Remember the line from the movie nothing changes until we are at the precipice ? Well we ain't there yet, which is a bit sobering to say the least.





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#1047366 - 02/10/21 02:03 PM Re: It IS time.... [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
There is another aspect of the current switch to Green Power, especially solar. The way WA law works, when you generate excess power to your immediate use, the system absorbs it. Which is fine, as they are paying me for it twice. Once with a short-term (another few years) payment for all I generate and the meter "runs backwards" when I generate more than I use.

What that means is that all summer I pay the basic "you are connected to the grid fee" of $7.50. In the course of the year, I pay about 50% of what I used to. But, I get power 24/7/365. Somebody without solar pays full rate which means that as more people get solar the folks who can't afford it, or who don't want to get it, or see it as a liberal conspiracy are paying for the infrastructure and repair.

This was first pointed out to me by a Hawaiian friend because it is becoming an issue there.

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#1047374 - 02/10/21 02:51 PM Re: It IS time.... [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4394
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Solar can save a bunch and amazingly enough it is with hot water. In most homes it is elements such as stove top or water heaters that eat juice. My brothers house in LV was gas & electric which in that climate is nuts as the environment goes. In LV solar hot water would reduce power use as would a solar system for the whole house. Throw in at least 17 Seer heat pumps for heating and cooling big reduction. Keeping in mind the Montana in Jan is not heat pump country. Hell make it a nation wide priority with a requirement that equipment be manufactured in US, it can be done. The problem is that it would require we ditch the PC crap that flies now/ right along with what problem mind set. I still have a 5 spot that says ain't no way with that tottering bunch of fools that run government.
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Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1047384 - 02/10/21 03:21 PM Re: It IS time.... [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Friend of mine in AZ has solar on his house. In summer, even with AC, he sells power.........

Our son down in SoCal has a new house with solar. It was required on new construction there. Basically pays the "you're on the grid" fee. It is a no-brainer, which may explain why it's not being done.

My wife's folks, up in Seattle, put in solar hot water in the 70s. Provided a whole lot of hot water. Why places like Hawaii, which require imported fuel, don't require it.

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#1047577 - 02/12/21 12:00 PM Re: It IS time.... [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4394
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
More food for thought.

Washington state residents divided on removal of dams
By NICHOLAS K. GERANIOS
March 11, 2020
SPOKANE, Wash. (AP) — People in Washington state remain sharply divided on whether four federal hydroelectric dams along the Snake River should be removed to help endangered salmon and orca recover, a state report concluded.

The final version of the report said the dams bring benefits and liabilities to the region, and there is no clear consensus in the state on whether they should be retained.

″’They have boosted the economy and local communities in southeast Washington but have also harmed tribal and fishing communities throughout the Pacific Northwest,″ said the report, released by Washington Gov. Jay Inslee.

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The contentious issue of removing the dams has been kicking around the Northwest for a couple of decades, and largely breaks along political lines. Republicans tend to favor keeping the dams, while Democrats tend to be more open to removing them.

The Legislature last spring appropriated $750,000 to study the dams, which are blamed by many for declining salmon runs in the Columbia-Snake river system. The salmon are a key food source for killer whales, which are listed as endangered.

Inslee’s office was still reviewing the final report and declined to comment Wednesday, spokesman Mike Faulk said.

The report is intended to help state lawmakers decide how to respond to the recent federal review of the dams. That draft report rejected the idea of removing the four dams and called for spilling more water through the dams during periods when salmon are migrating. That tactic has long been used, with little success at reviving wild runs of salmon.

The state report said the public has significantly different views of the impact of breaching the dams on salmon, orca, transportation, agriculture and economics.

“”More information is needed to create opportunities for greater understanding,″ the state report said.

For instance, many communities in southeastern Washington were built and have prospered because of inexpensive power provided ny the dams, the report said. It also notes the Pacific Northwest has a surplus of power and the four dams may not be needed to meet energy needs.

The team that wrote the state report did not try to reconcile different perspectives, or determine which side was right, the report said.

“Salmon, orca, agriculture and energy are fundamental to Washington’s past and future,″ the report said, noting the four dams have involved all those issues since they were constructed more than four decades ago.

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The four dams are Ice Harbor, Lower Monumental, Little Goose and Lower Granite. All are located on the Snake River between the Tri-Cities of Washington and Lewiston, Idaho.

The dams generate roughly enough power to supply the city of Seattle for a year, and allow navigation of barges between Lewiston and the Tri-Cities, and eventually to Pacific ports.

All species of salmon in the Snake River are listed as threatened or endangered and the dams are the biggest man-made obstacles they face, the report said.

The dams block fish migration, change river conditions and reduce the survival rate of fish that get chewed up in the turbines, the report said. That creates losers among fishing communities and Indian tribes who depend on salmon.

Supporters of breaching the dams say it is the only method that has not been tried to increase salmon populations, the report said. About $17 billion has been spent on other efforts to increase salmon runs, the report said, “without reversing the downward population trend.”

Supporters of breaching the dams say the power they provide primarily acts as a reserve supply, and the electricity is generally not used to meet primary energy demands.

But people who support keeping the dams say losing the power would hurt the state’s goal of being carbon free by 2045, especially as the population grows and coal plants are retired.

Breaching the dams would also eliminate the use of barges to transport agricultural products down the river, the report said. Barges are cleaner and cheaper than truck or rail transportation, the report said.

The dams provide irrigation water for some farmland, and that benefit would also be lost if the dams are breached, the report said.

And Gov Green Jeans report: https://www.governor.wa.gov/sites/defaul...rce=govdelivery


Edited by Rivrguy (02/12/21 12:03 PM)
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#1047579 - 02/12/21 12:06 PM Re: It IS time.... [Re: Rivrguy]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4394
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope

And some more but I have one question, where and the hell are they going to find 33 billion?

Inslee praises bold thinking in $33 billion proposal to breach 4 Snake River dams
Wed Feb 10th, 2021 3:30pmNORTHWEST NEWS




By Annette Cary

Tri-City Herald

Support The Daily World
Washington Gov. Jay Inslee praised an Idaho U.S. congressman for his proposal to spend $33 billion to breach the four lower Snake River dams.

The money would cover dismantling the earthen portions of the dams to let water flow freely, building new energy and transportation systems and addressing the economic impact of the loss of the dams.

“Washington welcomes Rep. (Mike) Simpson’s willingness to think boldly about how to recover Columbia and Snake River salmon in a way that works for the entire region and invests — at a potentially transformative level — in clean energy, transportation and agriculture,” Inslee said in a statement Tuesday.

Simpson, an Idaho Republican, is concerned about the low return of endangered salmon that must swim as far as 900 miles, including past eight hydroelectric dams on the Columbia and Snake rivers, to reach the ocean and to spawn in Idaho.

The Columbia Basin Collaborative, led by the governors of Washington, Idaho, Oregon and Montana, must play a prominent role in the formation and implementation of a comprehensive plan for the future of the Columbia and Snake rivers, Inslee said.


The collaborative group can complement and inform Congressional efforts to help the four states recover salmon while protecting and enhancing clean, reliable and affordable energy, plus work on transportation systems and help farmers and shippers, he said.

“Conversations among different interests and across party lines are essential to identifying creative solutions that work for salmon, energy and the economy,” he said. “This is important — to Washington’s tribes, people, economy and culture.”

Inslee will be working with the state’s congressional delegation to make sure the needs of Washington state are fully met, he said.

Rep. Dan Newhouse, R-Wash., opposes removing the dams. And he was joined last week in a resolution of support for existing and new hydropower by Republican Reps. Cathy McMorris Rodgers and Jaime Herrera Beutler in Washington state and Russ Fulcher in Idaho.

Tri-Cities area leaders were generally dubious about the proposal despite large amounts of money proposed to be used for economic development and compensation in the Tri-Cities area.

Tri-Cities concerns

Money includes $600 million to further develop the Tri-Cities into a transportation hub, $750 million for irrigation mitigation and $75 million for Tri-Cities area economic development. A new Snake River Center for Advanced Energy Storage would be established by Pacific Northwest National Laboratory in Richland, likely at a branch campus in the Lewiston-Clarkston area.

The $33 billion also include $10 billion to replace the power generated by the four dams.

But Tri-Cities leaders are concerned about whether long-term battery storage of wind and solar or small modular reactor technology would be ready to provide a clean energy replacement for the dam’s hydropower within a decade.

More trucks and trains would pollute the air and add traffic in the Tri-Cities and down the Columbia River Gorge if barging can no longer be done up and down the Snake River to as far inland as the Lewiston-Clarkston area.

They also questioned whether tearing out the four dams — which have modern fish passage systems — would substantially increase endangered salmon numbers.

“Given the Pacific Coast-wide declines in salmon survival in both dammed and undammed rivers, it is hard to make the case that breaching dams with advanced fish passage technology will reverse this disturbing trend,” said Kurt Miller executive director of Northwest RiverPartners.

Tribes, environmental concerns

But tribes and fishing and environmental groups are more certain of the benefits of Simpson’s proposal.

“We have reached a tipping point where we must choose between our Treaty-protected salmon and the federal dams, and we choose salmon,” said Delano Saluskin, Yakama Nation Tribal Council chairman. “We applaud Congressman Simpson for taking this important step towards protecting our salmon runs for future generations.”

A coalition of 11 groups working on conservation and other environmental causes in the West called for members of Congress and Northwest governors to offer their ideas on Simpson’s proposal to include in a national infrastructure bill.

Simpson has provided a blueprint for the largest river and salmon restoration effort in history, which would also create jobs and strengthen the energy and agriculture sectors, said Chris Hager, executive director of the Association of Northwest Steelheaders.


“Salmon are the lifeblood of Northwest cultures, economies and ecosystems,” said Brett VandenHeuvel, executive director of Columbia Riverkeeper. “We welcome Congressman Mike Simpson’s serious and comprehensive proposal to recover Northwest salmon, honor tribal rights and interests, and modernize our region’s energy and infrastructure systems.”

Sam Mace, Inland Northwest director of Save our Wild Salmon, called Simpson’s proposal a once-in-a-generation opportunity.

Idaho Conservation League American Rivers, the National Wildlife Federation, Idaho Rivers United, the Sierra Club, the Endangered Species Coalition, the Idaho Conservation League, Defenders of Wildlife and the Natural Resources Defense Council also praised Simpson’s proposal.
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Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1047583 - 02/12/21 12:36 PM Re: It IS time.... [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Whatever happens on the Snake, and ideally the Columbia will not be win-win. It will be win-lose. Keep the dams, lose salmon. Take them out, lose, for example, river transportation.

I would prefer rail transport for one big reason; it is private, pays taxes, and maintains its system. Highway and barge are subsidized (socialized???). We can replace the power; that's easy. Will it be cheaper? Who knows. We can replace the irrigation water with bigger pumps. Water's still there but costs go up.

I like the Congressman's ideas that we look at it holistically, but everybody has to come to the table and honestly lay out what they have now and what it will take to replace it. Do the folks who live along the rail lines want more trains or do they prefer the NIMBY solution of barges?

As was also pointed out, there is some flood control benefit of reservoirs; we willing to pay folks to leave the river-side?

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#1047634 - 02/14/21 09:41 AM Re: It IS time.... [Re: Carcassman]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4394
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Hell it is not riverside but all Columbia low lands. That flood that nearly maxed the reservoirs was inches from getting to the Columbia Basin metro areas in both WA and OR. As always many outside a area want change as long as someone else foots the bill and pain involved. The first step in this whole process is you have to stop killing the creature period. The marine fisheries are indiscriminate harvesters that completely obliterate any habitat restoration or other efforts to stop the decline of salmon populations. Terminal fisheries somewhat the same but the use of commercial fish wheels is logical now as you can design them to allow the passage of wild fish un harmed.

In order to get away from carbon based fuels will take a massive effort and again require nearly a doubling of electric generating capacity and transmission lines infrastructure that works. ( just the opposite of CA )

For myself it is the Dalles that needs to come down and the tribal nations get Celilo back. After the gates closed on the dam it took only 4 hours for the falls to go under water. Not much of a reservoir loss here and the falls had passage locks. https://www.critfc.org/salmon-culture/tribal-salmon-culture/celilo-falls/ This is a good read on falls. https://www.historylink.org/File/10010

Stupidity and injustice does not have boundaries anymore than greed. The Columbia projects were about creating power and water for irrigation that allowed the PNW to prosper, which we have. It did not come without cost and winners and loosers. In fact Grand Coulee Dam and its power are credited to being a key factor in the great speed that our country responded to WW II.

So don't want dams? Support a massive effort to develop alternate energy that allows us to do away with the need for hydro power. Other than that it is simply a bunch of philosophical whining.
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#1047635 - 02/14/21 10:46 AM Re: It IS time.... [Re: Rivrguy]
Direct-Drive Offline
ExtenZe Field Tester

Registered: 11/10/09
Posts: 8060
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Originally Posted By: Rivrguy

For myself it is the Dalles that needs to come down and the tribal nations get Celilo back. After the gates closed on the dam it took only 4 hours for the falls to go under water. Not much of a reservoir loss here and the falls had passage locks. https://www.critfc.org/salmon-culture/tribal-salmon-culture/celilo-falls/ This is a good read on falls. https://www.historylink.org/File/10010

I happened to be fishing next to an old timer on the Deschutes, quite a few years ago now.
Estimating his age, he would have been 30's - 40's when the Dalles Dam came on line.
He said the same thing.

He also mentioned that prime sturgeon spawning beds were lost as well.
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#1047636 - 02/14/21 11:00 AM Re: It IS time.... [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Worked with a guy who was born and raised in Idaho. Interestingly, the only mainstream Columbia dam that benefitted Idaho anadromous fish was the Dalles. When it closed, the numbers went up.......

But I agee on getting it out. At the same time, it is impossible to restore the Columbia River salmon, steelheads nd sturgeon unless all the anadromous out zone dams come out.

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#1047637 - 02/14/21 11:35 AM Re: It IS time.... [Re: eyeFISH]
Bent Metal Offline
Carcass

Registered: 01/09/14
Posts: 2312
Loc: Sky River(WA) Clearwater(Id)
I am for breaching the Snake dams. Will Idaho still receive mitigation money to release smolts? If they can still release the same amount of smolts without the 4 dams, i would think it would help substantially, however, if smolts releases stop and we rely on natural production.....we know where that's going to go.
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#1047638 - 02/14/21 12:03 PM Re: It IS time.... [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
The USACOE provides funding for the Lower Snake Mitigation. This funds at least the Lyons Ferry Hatchery operation. Since it is mitigation for the dams, lack of dams removes the legal reason why they fund them. Money can still be provided, hatchery fish can still be produced, but I doubt it can come for mitigations for dams that don't exist.

As soon as the dams are removed the impact begins to go away. Then, the reason for lack of spawners amongst the wild stock becomes the direct responsibility of the managers; they can't blame the dams.

IF the hatchery production is discontinued, then the wild smolts will undergo increased predation in the mainstem Columbia as there will be fewer salmonid smolts of the remaining predators to chow down on.

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