#1048234 - 02/27/21 10:29 AM
Wild vs. hatchery
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Spawner
Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 806
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Do hatchery salmon come from the native stock of the river or are there a few strains used for all rivers like steelhead?
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#1048235 - 02/27/21 11:02 AM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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Yes and no. Some stocks used in hatcheries are local and some are moved around. For a long time, the difference was that the only released steelhead came from the Mother Station while for salmon what came back was used so there was some local adaptation.
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#1048240 - 02/27/21 04:52 PM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 08/26/02
Posts: 4709
Loc: Sequim
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Historically, the original stock in a hatchery most likely came from in-basin fish. If one digs into the history, hatcheries have been operational in this state since 1895. It wasn't uncommon for WDF to move eggs between river basins/hatcheries depending on returns and or losses at individual hatcheries. The "pure" stocks of "wild" fish that existed in the 1890s aren't around. There has been a lot of mixing of stocks resulting, in my opinion, composite stocks in all of our river basins.
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#1048252 - 02/28/21 11:27 AM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13523
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For hatchery salmon to be derived entirely from local stock would be the exception to the rule. The salmon hatchery on Soose Creek, tributary to the Green River, was one of the earliest Puget Sound (PS) hatcheries. It's broodstock was derived from local native fall Chinook and coho. When other hatcheries were built, the easiest way to obtain broodstock was to get a wet gunnysack of eyed eggs from Green River and drive them to the new hatchery. Obtaining local broodstock is time consuming, considering how much work is involved for the number of eggs obtained.
As a result, all hatchery fall Chinook in PS, including Hood Canal, are derived from Green River stock. Most PS hatchery coho are as well, but since a lot of hatcheries are located on tributary creeks, some local coho frequently became part of the mix of hatchery brood stock.
Broodstock exceptions are spring and summer Chinook in the Nooksack, Skagit, Stillaguamish, Skykomish, and White Rivers, where local native broodstock were utilized.
Chambers Creek and South Tacoma were the universal donor broodstock for all western WA hatchery winter steelhead, and Skamania (Washougal, Wind, and Klickitat) was the universal donor broodstock for summer steelhead until some more recent smaller local broodstock programs began.
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#1048254 - 02/28/21 11:32 AM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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The difference in operation being that with salmon, once founded the hatchery used what came back there. Except for massive shortfalls. This allowed for some local adaptation. Further, salmon were generally incubated and reared on surface water sources which reflected the "natural" stream temperatures.
WDG steelhead eggs were all collected at Mother sites and eggs distributed around the state. WDG water sources tended to be groundwater/spring which allowed for all the transfers due to disease considerations but also had incubation and rearing occurring on water warmer than local surface waters. So, not only was there no use of locally returning fish (for a long time) but the early life was in water radically different from natural which helped make them poor reproducers in the wild.
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#1048283 - 03/01/21 10:44 AM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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Of course they went from bad to worse. The S Tacoma fish were incubated and reared on warm water. Decades of selection enforced that. Then, off to the hinterlands and cold water.
If you look at the few places with complete run wild R/S you see that steelhead rarely have a 1:1 R/S for all first returns. They need repeats. Further, R/S increases with decreasing smolt age. Where I have a longer data set, an average smolt age of 1.5 got you and R/S of 1. Which is why hatchery runs worked for so long when there were decent marine survivals. Lose that, and you need a whole lot of repeats, which don't seem to happen when you kill spawn. I asked the Pacific Coast steelhead conference folks for any data to refute this view and none had it.
Another aspect of steelhead and hatchery programs, at least as it appeared at the Steelhead Conferences, was that the most successful programs were the largest; releases in the 100-200-and up K. Most programs now are tiny. Small programs are made up of few spawners..... Which suggests to me that hatchery steelhead should be confined to a few "destroyed/compromised" systems like Cowlitz and Green with program release minimums of 250K, maybe go for 500K.
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#1048291 - 03/01/21 03:37 PM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salmo g.]
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Juvenile at Sea
Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
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Broodstock exceptions are spring and summer Chinook in the Nooksack, Skagit, Stillaguamish, Skykomish, and White Rivers, where local native broodstock were utilized. and Elwha summer/fall and Dungeness spring.
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#1048293 - 03/01/21 04:13 PM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salmo g.]
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Ornamental Rice Bowl
Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12767
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And now we have hatchery stations that can't make, or just barely make, broodstock needs even with no fishing. With the poor ocean survivals these days, I'd like to see an analysis of each hatchery program to see if any of them pencil out economically, or if we're just pouring money down a hatchery rat hole. I'd wager that's now true of most every PS winter steelhead program. Spinning their wheels for the sake of spinning their wheels... an end unto itself with little or no actual benefit to the recreational fisheries for which they were intended.
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"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey) "If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman) The Keen Eye MDLong Live the Kings!
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#1048295 - 03/01/21 05:07 PM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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Perhaps WDFW should be asked why they produce hatchery fish and how they measure "success".
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#1048296 - 03/01/21 05:39 PM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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Spawner
Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 806
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Why aren’t streams like the Samammish slough used for test hatcheries? It’s clear Herschel the sea lion killed them all and I don’t know if any even return to that river? Why not use the few fish that come back(if any) and establish a huge hatchery operation that anglers could utilize? Is that a bad idea or not?
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#1048297 - 03/01/21 05:41 PM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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Spawner
Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 806
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Really sucks to see a river that once had d runs used for nothing. All kinds of tests and experiments could be done to figure out how to restore other watersheds. The UW is right there to boot.
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#1048298 - 03/01/21 05:57 PM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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Water and water quality. A hatchery needs a clean, disease free supply that is cold enough too support the fish and in sufficient quantity. Form long experience in searching, there are few good sites left where decent water is available. And The Sammamish slough isn't one of them.
It is rather obvious that you cannot have a large hatchery program and a vibrant wild population on the same stream. IF we want huge hatchery runs of steelhead then we will need to write off specific rivers. Triage. One or the other.
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#1048299 - 03/01/21 06:11 PM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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Spawner
Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 806
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This is why I asked. I see a hatchery on the slough wouldn’t work but what would make it work? It obviously worked a long time ago, what would need to happen to make it work today?
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#1048301 - 03/01/21 08:03 PM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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Don't think there ever was a state hatchery on the Slough. I don't recall hearing of any.
First requirement is probably 20-50 cfs of pathogen free (well) water. Available 24/7/365. Temperature of 5o would be ok, colder would be better. Need enough land out of the floodplain for the hatchery, buildings, and such.
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#1048302 - 03/01/21 08:48 PM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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Spawner
Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 806
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I think it’s doable and would be a great experiment to see just what it takes to bring the dead to life.
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#1048340 - 03/03/21 11:26 AM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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Juvenile at Sea
Registered: 01/09/07
Posts: 155
Loc: Olympia, WA
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Barnaby Slough, Skagit River.
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#1048343 - 03/03/21 11:48 AM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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My Area code makes me cooler than you
Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
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#1048348 - 03/03/21 12:48 PM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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The Chosen One
Registered: 02/09/00
Posts: 14486
Loc: Tuleville
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The UW is right there to boot. What does the UW have to do with anything? The UW is not in the hatchery business, nor does it operate an existing hatchery. Been there, done that, wrote the books and have since moved on to other sciences. Seems to me this would be a state and tribal issue, seeing how they are comanagers in this game? I think it’s doable and would be a great experiment to see just what it takes to bring the dead to life. I'm pretty sure this experiment has already been done. Maybe not on every river/slough/waterway that the John Q Public has a fancy for. You seem to live in a world where you believe that those that manage our aquatic environments and the fish that live in them actually care about what you think or want. Recreational anglers are the very last user group to have a say or stake in any of this. But hey, keep on truckin', as they say. Don't let me get in the way.
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Tule King Paker
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#1048352 - 03/03/21 02:06 PM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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My Area code makes me cooler than you
Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
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#1048363 - 03/03/21 05:30 PM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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The Chosen One
Registered: 02/09/00
Posts: 14486
Loc: Tuleville
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We all should be, honestly.
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Tule King Paker
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#1048365 - 03/03/21 05:41 PM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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Parker is not upset, he just recognizes what's going on.
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#1048371 - 03/03/21 07:54 PM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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My Area code makes me cooler than you
Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
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#1048374 - 03/03/21 09:45 PM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: WDFW X 1 = 0]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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I wanna have what he's drinking.
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#1048380 - 03/04/21 09:56 AM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Carcassman]
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1383
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Which suggests to me that hatchery steelhead should be confined to a few "destroyed/compromised" systems like Cowlitz and Green with program release minimums of 250K, maybe go for 500K.
YES THIS! Win Win! Save $$$ and still have place to go catch. What would it take to make this happen?
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"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller. Don't let the old man in!
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#1048384 - 03/04/21 10:20 AM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: RUNnGUN]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4405
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
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an act of god
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#1048392 - 03/04/21 11:59 AM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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#1048407 - 03/04/21 01:43 PM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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Returning Adult
Registered: 06/23/04
Posts: 422
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#1048412 - 03/04/21 02:32 PM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: The Moderator]
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Dick Nipples
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
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I think that's a really inartful way of saying that they will no longer be using Skamania summer runs in the Skykomish hatchery program, and instead will use locally adapted broodstock fish for the program. Nevermind that those "wild" fish are likely the progeny of Skamania hatchery fish that were passed above the falls for years lol. Fish on... Todd
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#1048459 - 03/05/21 07:42 AM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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Reality runs smack-dab into a data-poor situation. Remember that ALL the anadromous fish upstream of Sunset Falls are invasive exotics.
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#1048464 - 03/05/21 08:58 AM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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Returning Adult
Registered: 03/16/00
Posts: 328
Loc: snohomish, wa
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Glad WDFW is trying to keep a fishery open. So then were is the absolutely pure stock of Steelhead anywhere on the planet ? Since fish from one stream had to “stray” to a barren stream to create a new run in that stream. Why no Hysterical rants when WDFW starts a new run of salmon in river x,y or z ?
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#1048467 - 03/05/21 09:21 AM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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My Area code makes me cooler than you
Registered: 01/27/15
Posts: 4549
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All Steelhead are hatchery brats now.
Pretend if you must.
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#1048471 - 03/05/21 09:54 AM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: The Moderator]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13523
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Good catch Parker. That is definitely high on the list of poorly written articles ever. In order to keep peace with the Wild Salmonid Conservancy, who keep suing WDFW, the Department agreed to discontinue using "exotic" Skamania summer steelhead in the Skykomish hatchery steelhead program. So they are using wild summer steelhead captured at Sunset Falls. And yes, those wild steelhead consist of about 20% NF wild strays and 80% naturalized Skamania origin steelhead. But hey, they be wild. And whatever keeps the lawsuits down must be a good thing from the WDFW point of view. It's going to take a while to build this hatchery program up to size because the numbers of returning steelhead (hatchery and wild) is much lower these days.
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#1048477 - 03/05/21 11:11 AM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salmo g.]
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Repeat Spawner
Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1383
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Good catch Parker. That is definitely high on the list of poorly written articles ever. In order to keep peace with the Wild Salmonid Conservancy, who keep suing WDFW, the Department agreed to discontinue using "exotic" Skamania summer steelhead in the Skykomish hatchery steelhead program. So they are using wild summer steelhead captured at Sunset Falls. And yes, those wild steelhead consist of about 20% NF wild strays and 80% naturalized Skamania origin steelhead. But hey, they be wild. That being said, will the return timing still be a Skamainia early component? IMO when they made this change on the Kalama it fd up the return timing. The summers now trickle in after the 4th of July into September when water levels get tough. They used to peak in June during decent flows. Love those spankin chrome June summers the most!
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"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller. Don't let the old man in!
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#1048606 - 03/05/21 05:46 PM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: The Moderator]
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Juvenile at Sea
Registered: 05/10/09
Posts: 137
Loc: around the next bend
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Its quite obvious that the author has no shame. Probably doesn't know better but the editor should be remorseful!
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#1048621 - 03/06/21 09:21 AM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: RUNnGUN]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13523
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That being said, will the return timing still be a Skamainia early component? IMO when they made this change on the Kalama it fd up the return timing. The summers now trickle in after the 4th of July into September when water levels get tough. They used to peak in June during decent flows. Love those spankin chrome June summers the most! If you're referring to the time period late 70s, early 80s, when the Dep't. selected for large hatchery summer runs, and the return rates were high and resulted in fishable numbers of fish from late May onward, then no. The natural peak return is July, following spring runoff which peaks in May and June. The data I had going back to the beginnings of the program in the 60s showed Skamania summer runs always peaking in July. The reason for the early fish was because the tails of the bell curve for timing, with the much larger run sizes, indicated substantial numbers of fish both early and late.
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#1048626 - 03/06/21 02:52 PM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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Spawner
Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 806
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With how bad runs are nowadays I think it would be best to utilize hatcheries in streams that once had a population of summer/winter fish or both but now do not and use brood stock to recover those runs while still allowing for sport fisheries. If successful allow sport fisherman to retain wild fish from said system. Why or why not would this work? While simultaneously closing down systems that have native runs which can be utilized to produce native fish on their own. It seems like a win win to me and also if sea lions/seals could be kept in check for these particular river systems because they weren’t there before the hatchery fish.
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#1048628 - 03/06/21 04:25 PM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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Name one system where a large hatchery program for steelhead operates concurrently with a strong, self-sustaining, "harvest available", genetically intact wild run. It is unlikely that this has ever occurred. We can have one or the other on a given watershed, but not both.
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#1048630 - 03/06/21 06:50 PM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Carcassman]
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Spawner
Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 806
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My point! Most of these rivers with hatcheries also support wild runs. Why not build hatcheries where wild fish are non existent or going extinct and nobody has fished them have a chance at recovery while providing sportfishing opportunities?
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#1048650 - 03/08/21 07:21 AM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4405
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
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Because new hatcheries are steel and concrete ( mostly ) and cost a lot to build. What was considered a good location for a facility 50 years ago is not necessarily a good location today. Hatcheries are sited around water quality and quantity, harvesters, and politicians desires. A good example is the Skookumchuck and Satsop Springs facilities in he Chehalis. Both were part of the Governor Evans state wide package to expand harvest opportunity. Once Gov Dan was out of office WDF shut the Springs down and went to raising Coho for the South Sound net pens at Skookumchuck.
You really have to know the history in any given area of the state to have any idea on how and why things are what they are now.
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Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in
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#1048651 - 03/08/21 08:06 AM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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River Nutrients
Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7428
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
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Not only were many facilities poorly sited in a location/harvest/wild fish sort of way but many were built poorly, especially water intakes. Maintenance was difficult, disruptive to the water supply (stream). Like other construction, there is no good reason to put a hatchery in the floodplain except to "save money" during construction.
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#1048656 - 03/08/21 08:47 AM
Re: Wild vs. hatchery
[Re: Salman]
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Returning Adult
Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 263
Loc: Tumwater
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Salman,
Your point is exactly right on and why we need to build the Deschutes hatchery in Tumwater. No "Wild" fish present -wdfw killed the naturally adapted Chinook run. All fish out of this hatchery would disperse throughout Puget Sound and beyond. Could be built with best hatchery practices.
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