Has there been an update to the coastal regulations for the upcoming season? Just wondering if the same rules (no boat, no bait, etc) are still valid for this year.

https://wdfw.wa.gov/news/public-invited-oct-26-virtual-coastal-steelhead-town-hall

Fish on...

Todd

Thank you.

I am cringing at what's gonna happen, like I did when I got a vasectomy.
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Both to feel like a kick in the balls to be sure. Every year I lose a little more faith and a little more interest in fishing in this state..

I missed the webinar yesterday, and went to check this morning but I could not view it after the fact.

Can anyone on here confirm what was decided for this years season?

Keeping the season open on those rivers to "kill hatchery fish"....

Show me one time in the last decade where anglers more than 20% of the peak average(dec) combined for feb/March out of the entire quiluyete system.
(people don't keep old scummy hatchery fish that late in the year, the catch record card data for the last 13 years illustrates that point exactly).*also where is the hatchery fish mandatory retention rule??*

And since when do hatchery fish tend to hang out in the lower river where they are allowing to fish from a boat?? They will be pounding on all the fresh wild fish coming in thru tidewater.

These regs PROVE that the secret closed door meeting last year with select Forks area guides and the Forks city attorney had a lot more influence to the point of exploitation than we had hoped.

Facking shame to all those involved in setting this season. May the history books call you out for who and what you are.

What was announced then?

Fish on...

Todd

11/30/2021

Sorry you missed the 5 - 6 meeting feed by "cutthroat man" and the new WDFW top man.

Who knew that the meeting was only going to be a hour?????

Who had any idea that the coast was going to "pretty much shut down December 1 - April 30, 2022?

Who knew that "handicapped people", were going to be left with no boat to enjoy the activity many so enjoy????

North coast got "fishing go"??? Oh, yea a few limitations but the guides have something to smile about.

Willapa river will be open, no tribal influence there.....

The list will be out but the following ARE CLOSED tomorrow December 1 - April 30, 2022......closed means NO FISHING FOR ANYONE, tribal and sports:

Humptulips
East Hoquiam
Wishkah
Wynoochee
Satsop
Chehalis.....whole river
Skookumchuck
Quinault
Queets and Clearwater

Duh December 1......been in the area since 1968.....never caught a wild fish that early.

I probably missed some closures.....but WDFW will have something out...

How's it feel???? Pay your money, license, 5 months in Grays Harbor with no river fishing....... WDFW, backup to the pay window, you haven't been earning your pay for the last 50+ years....IMO

you got that right Bill.. they have dropped the ball on this for yrs..

swing said the old WDFW guys were wild steelhead guys too. than why the hell didnt they start doing things 20-30 yrs ago.. i guess its all about $$$$$

id like a refund for my license..

While I think there are a TON of moving parts here, and no silver bullets now, or then, I will say this...

Those who fought tooth and nail to keep wild steelhead kill on the OP who are now complaining about closures, can shut right the fukck up.

Fish on...

Todd

I am correct in assuming that it is the entire chehalis system?

Top to bottom, including tributaries, by my understanding.

Fish on...

Todd

It is not right to close the Satsop Dec. 1. I have fished the river for many years and have never caught a steelhead out of there in December. A couple of steelhead in late January with the bulk of the run (both hatchery and wild) coming in February on. Now we can't even fish late coho through December. I even wrote a email to Larry Phillips expressing my thoughts. Obviously it didn't do any good. What a crime.

Did they close it for Salmon? The above only references Steelhead. Don’t see any emergency regs out yet, I guess we’ll get more clarity when they get posted.

Buddy sent me a print out of the new regs in a text. Can anyone post? Lots of questions. Who do we ask for clarifications?

The picture I posted above is it for now...nothing on the WDFW website in the emergency regulations, or on their blog.

Fish on...

Todd

Ah guys the stock of salmon most at risk is late wild Coho. Dec & Jan native late Coho have driven to the point being non viable in the Satsop and any tide water trib. That it is closed is not only appropriate but long overdo. That fish has been tangled up in the old WDG bit where they planted early Steelhead for tribal harvest but when the early Steelhead plants went away not much was left of the native early part of the Steelhead run.

So the simple answer is that the Steelhead and Late Coho are both in the crapper together and the jig is up folks, all done, finish, kaput! No more BS seasons built around trying to claim letting the runs recover. We made this mess by our actions and the willingness to accept a long draw out harvest scenarios that resulted in the decimation of the fish.

Just plain time to end it and leave the bloody fish alone.

It appears the Forks guide-set bobber crowd will be fishing, and the QIN too. . .the rest of us took it in the a$$. If rec barbless catch and release were the limiting factor (or even a factor at all) in recovering these runs Rivrguy I would agree with you, but. . . .
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Didn't see any posted pic?

That one ^^.

Fish on...

Todd

Shows right there that the secret meeting with the Forks City attorney and selected forks area guides got some strings pulled by issuing threats to WDFW. Painfully obvious what's going on there.
We can thank chairman Larry Carpenter and Commissioner Don Mcisaac for that meeting and the lack of transparency about that issue right down to why the season wrap up meeting last year was really canceled. This is a line drawn in the sand by the dept that when push comes to shove they don't give two sh!ts about the stocks longevity, and that pandering to the squeaky wheel(*notice no mention of a guide package either*), acting against current science is going to continue to be the WDFW motto going into the future.

11/30/2021



I got wind of that secret meeting, last summer, you are correct thanks for reminding me.........

Good for them! I'm glad Forks got to keep their rivers open considering the rest of the Peninsula got screwed. Closing down rivers ain't going to help the fish so might as well enjoy what little we can in the meantime.

Sure, good for them...we get to sit back and watch while Forks area guides and people speaking on their behalf rearrange the Titanic's deck chairs and charge people still on board a premium to sit and watch the show while they sink to the bottom.

And wdfw sits there with violins in hand.

Seems like a rather short sided view, Unless you are a guide or one of their minions. Then it will benefit them and you but no one else, esp. the fish.

im sure it isnt all just guides. isnt there a tribe that gillnets the Quileute system? im sure they have alot to do with it too.

I'm not a guide I'm just a fisherman. Remember when they closed down all the Puget Sound tribs? What good has that done. The minute they start closing down these rivers it will start to become the new norm every year.

I can't how anyone who loves steelheading can sit back and thing to themselves that closing down these rivers is a good thing.

I love eating Sandhill cranes.

But I'm still glad they don't have a season for them

Guides? Call them what they are: commercial fisherman. Especially the ones in Forks who have to measure a good day by how many fish they boat.

I felt so bad for them last year, having to get out of the boat at each drift, and actually show people how to fish instead of rowing them right into the fish.

This is only the beginning though. Once the ESA listing petition is approved, it's game over for those 21st century bison hunters aka OPGA.

The details:
https://fortress.wa.gov/dfw/erules/efishrules/erule.jsp?id=2782
Surprised the Salmon will be closed Dec. 1st? The tribal guides will have the whole river to themselves through Jan. 2nd. Not a good trend to start there. Wonder how many OR & MT guides will pack the Forks rivers under these rules? The Bogy will be a joke being the only one to fish from the boat. This is what our glorious state fish has come to. Disgusting to say the least!

ovember 30, 2021

Coastal rivers and tributaries fishing rules update

Action: Updates rules for coastal tributaries regarding gamefish seasons, fishing from a floating device, Selective Gear Rules (Selective Gear Rules prohibit the use of bait including scents or scented materials) with only one single-point barbless hook allowed in all areas open to fishing and requires release of wild rainbow trout. Reduces steelhead daily limit for the Quillayute system (Bogachiel, Quillayute, Calawah, Sol Duc) and Hoh River.

Effective date: Dec. 1, 2021, until further notice; except Palix River upstream of the Middle Fork is not open to fishing until Dec. 16.

Species affected: All species.

Rules:

All species: Fishing from a floating device is prohibited except where otherwise noted in the Quillayute River system. Selective Gear Rules in effect, except only one single-point barbless hook is allowed.

Hatchery steelhead daily limit is 2.

Rainbow trout: Release all wild rainbow trout.

Locations (the following waters will follow the above rules and will close to all fishing until further notice beginning on the date listed next to the water; any exceptions to the rule will also be listed next to the water):

Bear River (Pacific Co.): Closed beginning Mar. 1, 2022.

Big River (Clallam Co.), outside Olympic National Park: Closed beginning Mar. 1, 2022.

Black River (Grays Harbor Co.), from mouth to bridge on 128th Ave SW: Closed beginning Dec. 1, 2021.

Bogachiel River (Clallam Co.), from the mouth to Olympic National Park boundary: Fishing from a floating device is allowed downstream of Highway 101 Bridge, Dec. 1 through Mar. 31, 2022. Closed beginning Apr. 1, 2022.

Calawah River, (Clallam Co.), from the mouth to the forks: Fishing from a floating device is allowed downstream of Highway 101 Bridge, Dec. 1 through Mar. 31, 2022. Closed beginning Apr. 1, 2022.

Calawah River, South Fork (Clallam Co.), from the mouth to Olympic National Park boundary: Closed beginning Mar. 1, 2022.

Cedar Creek (Jefferson Co.), outside Olympic National Park boundary: Closed beginning Mar. 1, 2022.

Chehalis River (Grays Harbor Co.), from the mouth upstream, including all forks: Closed beginning Dec. 1, 2021.

Clearwater River (Jefferson Co.), from the mouth to Snahapish River: Closed beginning Dec. 1, 2021.

Cloquallum Creek (Grays Harbor/Mason Co.), from the mouth to the outlet at Stump Lake: Closed beginning Dec. 1, 2021.

Copalis River (Grays Harbor Co.): Closed beginning Dec. 1, 2021.

Dickey River (Clallam Co.), from the Olympic National Park boundary upstream including the East and West forks: Closed beginning Apr. 1, 2022.

Elk Creek (Lewis/Pacific Co.): Closed beginning Dec. 1, 2021.

Elk River (Grays Harbor Co.): Closed beginning Dec. 1, 2021.

Fork Creek (Pacific Co.), from Fork Creek Hatchery rack upstream 500 feet at fishing boundary sign: Closed beginning Apr. 1, 2022.

Goodman Creek (Jefferson Co.), outside of Olympic National Park boundary: Closed beginning Mar. 1, 2022.

Hoh River (Jefferson Co.), from Olympic National Park boundary upstream to Olympic National Park boundary below mouth of South Fork Hoh: Closed beginning Apr. 1, 2022.

Hoh River, South Fork (Jefferson Co.), outside of Olympic National Park boundary: Closed beginning Apr. 1, 2022.

Hoquiam River including West and East forks (Grays Harbor Co.): Closed beginning Dec. 1, 2021.

Humptulips River (Grays Harbor Co.), from the mouth to confluence of East and West forks and West Fork from mouth to Donkey Creek: Closed beginning Dec. 1, 2021.

Joe Creek (Grays Harbor Co.), from the mouth to Ocean Beach Rd. Bridge: Closed beginning Dec. 1, 2021.

Johns River (Grays Harbor Co.), from the mouth (Hwy. 105 Bridge) to Ballon Creek: Closed beginning Dec. 1, 2021.

Kalaloch Creek (Jefferson Co.), outside Olympic National Park boundary: Closed beginning Mar. 1, 2022.

Moclips River (Grays Harbor Co.), from the mouth to Quinault Indian Reservation boundary: Closed beginning Dec. 1, 2021.

Mosquito Creek (Jefferson Co.), from Olympic National Park boundary upstream to Goodman 30000 Mainline Bridge: Closed beginning Mar. 1, 2022.

Naselle River (Pacific Co.), from the Hwy. 101 Bridge to the North Fork: Closed beginning Apr. 1, 2022.

Naselle River, South (Pacific Co.), from the mouth to Bean Creek: Closed beginning Mar. 1, 2022.

Nemah River, Middle (Pacific Co.): Closed beginning Mar. 1, 2022.

Nemah River, North (Pacific Co.), from Hwy. 101 Bridge to Cruiser Creek: Closed beginning Mar. 1, 2022.

Nemah River, South (Pacific Co.): Closed beginning Mar. 1, 2022.

Newaukum River, including South Fork (Lewis Co.), from mouth to Hwy. 508 Bridge near Kearny Creek: Closed beginning Dec. 1, 2021.

Newaukum River, Middle Fork (Lewis Co.), from mouth to Taucher Rd. Bridge: Closed beginning Dec. 1, 2021.

Newaukum River, North (Lewis Co.), from mouth to 400' below Chehalis City water intake: Closed beginning Dec. 1, 2021.

North River (Grays Harbor/Pacific Co.), from the Hwy. 105 bridge to Raimie Creek: Closed beginning Mar. 1, 2022.

Palix River (Pacific Co.): Closed beginning Mar. 1, 2022.

Queets River (Grays Harbor/Jefferson Co.): Contact Olympic National Park for regulations. (360) 565-3000. www.nps.gov/olym/fishing.htm

Quillayute River (Clallam Co.), from Olympic National Park boundary upstream to confluence of Sol Duc and Bogachiel rivers: Closed beginning April 1, 2022. Fishing from a floating device allowed downstream of Highway 101 Bridge.

Quinault River, Upper (Grays Harbor/Jefferson Co.), from the mouth at upper end of Quinault Lake upstream to Olympic National Park boundary: Closed beginning December 1, 2021.

Salmon River (Jefferson Co.), from outside Quinault Indian Reservation and Olympic National Park: Closed beginning December 1, 2021.

Satsop River and East Fork (Grays Harbor Co.), from the mouth to bridge at Schafer State Park, and from 400' below Bingham Creek Hatchery dam to the dam and all Forks: Closed beginning December 1, 2021.

Satsop River Middle and West forks (Grays Harbor Co.): Closed beginning December 1, 2021.

Skookumchuck River (Lewis/Thurston Co.), from mouth to 100' below outlet of TransAlta WDFW steelhead rearing pond located at the base of Skookumchuck Dam: Closed beginning December 1, 2021.

Smith Creek (near North River) (Pacific Co.): Closed beginning March 1, 2022.

Sol Duc River (Clallam Co.), from mouth to Hwy. 101 Bridge upstream of Klahowya campground: Closed beginning April 1, 2022.

Sooes River (Clallam Co.), outside of Makah Indian Reservation: Closed beginning March 1, 2022.

Stevens Creek (Grays Harbor Co.), from mouth to Hwy 101 Bridge: Closed beginning December 1, 2021

Thunder Creek (Clallam Co.), from mouth to D2400 Rd.: Closed beginning April 1, 2022.

Van Winkle Creek (Grays Harbor Co.), from mouth to 400' below outlet of Lake Aberdeen Hatchery: Closed beginning December 1, 2021.

Willapa River (Pacific Co.), from mouth (City of South Bend boat launch) to Hwy. 6 Bridge (near the town of Lebam): Closed beginning April 1, 2022.

Willapa River, South Fork (Pacific Co.): Closed beginning March 1, 2022.

Wishkah River (Grays Harbor Co.), from the mouth to 200? below the weir at the Whishkah Rearing Ponds and from 150' upstream to 150' downstream of the Wishkah adult attraction channel/outfall structure (within the posted fishing boundary): Closed beginning December 1, 2021.

Wynoochee River (Grays Harbor Co.): Closed beginning December 1, 2021.

Information contact: Region 6 - Montesano, 360-249-4628

Hell yeah, love to see them called what they are, why guiding is even legal is beyond me.

Somebody needs to get an injunction to stop this baloney. I can see some of the closures, but to close rivers like the salmon, knowing the tribe is going to not only fish it themselves (subsistent) but allow guiding makes a joke out of the 50% rule. Especially annoying when you consider that the tribe does not have any provisions against bait or keeping wild fish. I could see bait restrictions and closing early, but to stop on December 1st? What to protect the possible one or two wild fish that could be caught and released? Never mind one user group general nets wild fish in the system and has no provision against keeping them in a normal year. But of course, the rec's are the problem.

Kind of a side point, but do these regs shut down the rivers all together when it says closed, or only to steelhead fishing? Not trying to mess around and accidently catch a steelhead, just curious if they are closed to sea run cutts and bulls too (aka all fishing).

I am sure it means closed for everything. WDF doesn't want even the chance that you might accidently hook a wild steelhead while targeting another species.

New rule change says all Species Closed. Remember when a few years back when all hatchery fish had to killed in some of the river systems that now have closures? They were so toxic to the river systems and wild fish we had to kill them even if they were spawned out roasters with scabs on them. Same new science they are using today making decisions regarding our fisheries. Bet ya, WDFW made some deal with the tribes to receive the excess hatchery steelhead headed to Wynooche and Skookumchuck rivers.

The reg release says "update to gamefish seasons" so would include sea runs and bull trout. Presumably then would not close fishing in these tribs that are currently open to salmon (food fish) (are there any?).

>>>>Buyer Beware. This information is as good as what you paid for it.

Yep, you are right...the update covers all fish, so closed down completely.

Salmon River within Olympic National Park...

https://www.nps.gov/olym/learn/news/fish...d-steelhead.htm

Fishing regulation changes in Olympic National Park to protect wild steelhead

November 30, 2021

Contact: Penny Wagner, 360-565-3005

Olympic National Park has conservation concerns for declining wild steelhead populations and is implementing in-season fishing regulation changes within park waters for the Queets, Salmon, and Quinault river systems. Of particular concern is the forecasted low return of Queets River wild steelhead. The 2021-22 forecast for Queets wild steelhead is expected to be well below the minimum escapement goal of 4,200 wild fish. Queets wild steelhead have failed to meet that escapement goal in each of the last five years. The Salmon River will be open from December 1 through December 31, 2021 and two hatchery steelhead may be retained. The 2021-22 forecast for wild steelhead in the Quinault River system is expected to be 1,756 wild steelhead, which would be among the lowest return on record. These regulation changes are being implemented in cooperation with Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife.

Fisheries within Olympic National Park are managed to provide a variety of fishing opportunities, allow for the harvest of hatchery steelhead, and protect wild steelhead populations. To better protect wild steelhead, Olympic National Park is implementing the following in-season changes:


Queets River:
Closed to recreational fishing beginning December 1, 2021.

Salmon River:
Closed to recreational fishing beginning January 1, 2022.

Quinault River (upper bridge downstream to park boundary):
Closed to recreational fishing beginning December 1, 2021.

For current fishing regulations and information, please visit the park website at nps.gov/olym/planyourvisit/fishing.htm

Fish on...

Todd

Too little
Too late

And they went to college for their smarts.

Funny how that works, looking at the maps, the Salmon runs through park land, then through a small section of forest land (state rules apply), then through the reservation, Then through some national Forest, then back through the reservation, back through some DNR land, and then back to the reservation. So the state shuts down their sections, but the tribes and Park leave theirs open. I am assuming the National forest falls under state regs, so that would be closed too. We are left with the question of who is using science and who is ignoring it? For an emergency rule, I would assume there has to be an emergency. Is the state willing to stand by the fact that there is an emergency, and if so, why are they not making moves to stop the other players in the system?

The state probably will say they shut it down to avoid confusion and provide consistency in the regs.

Looks like we will need to down load a mapping system if we decide to fish it.

So someone clue me in, how do they count spawning redds in a glacial river like the Queets? Mainstem spawners. And do we actually get a good count by flying over or boating a river when it clears up in the spring.

The Queets is often clear enough to count steelhead redds from March until the end of May, which covers most of the spawning season for wild steelhead. Once spring runoff kicks in, surveys are over for the season on the mainstem.

Not to cut WDFW for their abundant management miscues, I think it's important to consider that even if all steelhead fishing in WA state, treaty and non-treaty alike, had been entirely closed since 1980, the runsizes we are witnessing at present wouldn't be any larger, with very few exceptions.

Consider, for example, the Nisqually River, which has been closed to steelhead fishing since 1993, has not recovered. It showed some improvement for a couple seasons 5 to 7 years ago, but overall the trend has been in the tank. And the Skagit system, which has been very conservatively managed with respect to harvest since 1977, barely has returns large enough to support a well monitored and regulated catch-and-release season.

My point is, even if WDFW were a steelhead czar, which we all know they are not, and kept all rivers closed all the time, most all of the runs would be exactly what we are seeing. That being the case, what could WDFW have done differently?

Looks like you’re cherry picking, what about the cedar River? Seems that their ‘trout’ are steelhead that have become resident for whatever reason. I’m not disagreeing with you but you should have been consistent and mentioned the puyallup and the nisqually being that they are both in the south sound and IMO way different then the skagit River that is mostly wild and gives salmonids a clearer path to the ocean.

well you include the pilchuck, wind and one or two others. but do get the point. Pacific Ocean sucks for steelhead/salmon.

The ocean certainly sucks, but there is a lot already known about steelhead in freshwater that we are ignoring.

Here's a few things that WDFW and BC F&W, plus some other researchers, have found out.

1. Increasing nutrients, whether by increased salmon escapements, fertilizers, or contributions from sewage treatment plants, results in more smolts, younger smolts and higher R/S. Which means that even in poor ocean years, you get more back. The fertilizer experiments in BC took a run with an R/S <1 and pushed it >1.

2.Setting increased minimum flows in late summer benefits salmon positively and steelhead negatively. It appears to tune the anadromous steelhead into residents.

3. Lowering the summer temperatures in streams favors residents at the expense of anadromous.

4. Most steelhead runs have a R/S less than 1.0 through first return as spawners. It is the repeat spawners that bring the R/S to >1.0.

As I said, all this is known, the data are there.

I don't think there is any way to argue other than that the main drivers of steelhead declines are completely outside of WDFW's hands...and the only thing they can control is recreational harvest, hatchery management, and season setting, most of which are very tightly bound by ESA requirements.

I have no doubt that the heavy restrictions on the coastal fisheries this year are in part a futile attempt to forestall an ESA listing there, too. All we are missing is a halfway decent petition for ESA protection, and the rest of Washington steelhead that aren't already listed will be.

Fish on...

Todd

dwatkins, I didn't mean to cherry pick. Nor did I intend to write a complete WA state steelhead assessment. Just illustrate with a couple obvious examples that harvest management by WDFW didn't put steelhead in the drastic condition they are in today. The Cedar is a perfect example where zero harvest hasn't resulted in increased adult steelhead abundance. The Cedar shows us that when a resident or adfluvial life history is more successful than an anadromous one, then resident and adfluvial become the dominant species type. And yes, the further south a river is located in PS, then the lower its SAR is, apparently due to higher marine mammal predation.

Todd, I was thinking the same thing. Wondering if Sam Wright is preparing a coastal steelhead ESA petition as we discuss this.

Regarding ESA listing for Washington coast steelhead. There are two Distinct Population Segments (DPS) for steelhead which is the ESA listing equivalent of ESUs for salmon. The Southwest Washington DPS covers Grays Harbor tribs south through the lower Columbia below the Cowlitz. The Olympic Peninsula DPS covers trib populations north of Grays Harbor. A petition for listing would cover the status of the populations as a group in each of these DPSs. Trends in abundance and habitat conditions for the group come into play on listing decisions. Individual populations within a group dont all have to be in the toilet for listing. The expectation of the group's future is what makes up for a listing.

Wasn't Sam Wright the gentleman that filed the Puget Sound steelhead petition in 2006?

Yes. That's why I mentioned him.

Plant fish!!
Then and now.

WDFW does control, at least half of, the salmon escapement levels. They do control the research they do, and publish, and salmonid ecosystem functioning and the advice given on, say, in stream flows. It's a complex world, but they do love to punt problems to "Marine issues".

Heck, we have known of close to 20 years (we being WDFW) the the survival of ocean-migrant rearing and older salmonids south of the Tacoma Narrows sucked big time. What have they done to figure it out?

I think it is time to either [Bleeeeep!] or get off the pot! With our license purchase revenue for Steelhead or whatever. If there is and should be a desire to have any recreational steelhead fishery. Designate a couple rivers in PS, the Col R. and Coast as steelhead hatchery factories for recreation. Plant the [Bleeeeep!] out of them instead of spreading thin numbers all around. Intensify summer plants to avoid inclement winter weather loss of opportunity.... better quality anyway. My 2 cents.

If fishing is outlawed only outlaws will fish.

It would be a good idea, in my mind, to designate specific streams with a hatchery fish emphasis. ESA will need to be changed. Current management may get us there with wild fish extirpation, but we should start now with a clear separation between wild fish watersheds and hatchery fish watersheds.

Some rivers have been designated for wild steelhead recovery or sanctuaries. Other rivers have not. That list would be a good place to select from to create Cowlitz-like hatchery fish blood fests. However, IMO strong consideration should be given to the observation that even with massive plants of hatchery steelhead, recent returns have been dismal at best. I like to fish for steelhead as much as anyone I know, but at some point you have to ask yourself how much you're willing to spend raising hatchery steelhead to return just one adult to the river of your choice. Current SAR are so low that I think we are at that point.

There are major issues in the N Pacific. Statistically, and somewhat logically too, they are tied to the massive chum and pink stocking. Those programs have been correlated acrosss many species and hemispheres. Add to that the impacts of the changing climate and ocean conditions. Hell, even the N Pacific crab fisheries are mirroring PS steelhead.

We will not, as Salmo alludes, be very successful at recovery of steelhead (or likely much else that is ocean dependent) until we investigate and address the issues out there.

Say it again for the people that continue to praise hatchery plants as the end all be all savior.
Guys like Cameron, kratzer etc like to run their mouths like it's just that cut and dry.
Ignorance isn't bliss, we are all better than that.

Roger that......The Satsop is on fire!!!!

Remembering something Skip Zapffe said one afternoon side drifting eggs at the confluence of the Salmon on the Snake, “thank god there’s no more dinosaurs or we’d be saving them”. At some point in time perhaps we need to throw in the towel, knowing there’s no going back. Hatchery management zones and wild fish sanctuaries.

It is very telling how the blame is pushed on the state, and not the actual causes.
If you are wanting to fish for these last remaining fish, take a good look in the mirror, you are part of the problem!

So if the state is managing less resource out there then take the money we still pay and apply it towards planting more fish.

Seems like they are doing less and less every year but the revenue is growing.

Give us fish.

What the hell are you......a business owner?? Your economics make way to much sense. Pipe down and be happy with what you get mister and you get nothing.

“Give us Fish !”

WD, some Birthday wishes cannot be granted, and unfortunately this state will not be helping anytime soon with your wish .

Happy Birthday too ya’s anyways !

Salmo g's point exactly

last 4 comments sucking the hatchery d!ck like it's a messiah and continuing to avoid the SAR conversation.

Atmosphere wrote a song called "the skinny" about sucking that white d!ck, though he was talking about cigarettes, the hatchery outfall pipe here serves a eloquent substitute.

.

You seem pretty experienced at that act. Do tell.

Daddy's little boy likes Uncle Richard.

What I am saying if your going to plant fish. Have a budget to spend on fish. Plant enough in a system, that at least return something more than almost nothing. If you look at smolt plant reports, many streams have smolt plants 20,000 or less. Based on the current return success rates, that is a waste for any opportunity. Understanding current poor smolt survival rates, doesn't it make more sense to collect those numbers and put them in quantity some place that can offer recreation? Seems to be a no brainer to me and could satisfy many.

Looking in the mirror for the problem only makes sense when recreational fishing is part of the problem. I'm glad to say that recreational steelhead fishing has zero to do with the very poor steelhead returns this year or any recent year. We know where the problem is, and the problem is in the Pacific Ocean, not the mirror.

It seems like you're not very good at math. Planting more fish amounts to taking more of your money and flushing it down the toilet. That's not going to result in the more fish that you want. Steelhead SAR is about to reach the point where it will be economically advantageous to raise hatchery steelhead from egg all the way to harvestable adult all in freshwater captivity and then release them into some kind of kiddie pond and invite you in to fish for them.

I sympathize that you want more steelhead to fish for. I do too. However, smart money tries to understand what is possible and separate that from the delusional. Sadly, you're in the camp of delusional.

Salmo, I suspect that some folks would be happy if we planted adults to catch. Lastways something to catch. We did, and may still, have a westside pheasant program and S Africa and Texas (among other places) raise various "game" mammals for hunting. It's the new wave; we can't be satisfied with, or protect, what nature provides.

Salmo comes from the school of excuses.
Who can blame him?
It's paid the pension and continues to buy the Depends.

Planting steelhead costs a lot of money, and doesn't return many fish to catch, in most cases not even enough to provide eggs for the program. It's not a very wise investment right now.

Fish on...

Todd

When was WDFW ever wise?

I've temporarily given up fishing for steelhead for now. Just not worth my time and effort. If I lived a lot closer to the OP/Hoh, I'd happily walk in shoulder-to-shoulder amongst Slamo and his fellow bug chuckers and ground pound some drifts with spoons. If I could, I so would not purchase a license to fish for steelhead in 2022. I fish for salmon in fresh water, so I don't get a choice to exclude steelhead in the cost of my license.

I've given up attitude is part of the problem, another part of the problem is using the state as a scape goat.


Look in the mirror.

Mod Note: Check the edits to my post.

Yeah, the state never fuc*s shi* up, just look at Willapa Bay, a shining example of quality leadership making great decisions. Steelhead are on a downward spin, but choices the state makes does not give anyone much confidence of the state's ability to deal with the problems that can be addressed.

Folks at WDFW are just collecting pensions.

Someone please tell the class what that actually do????

Close hatcheries and fish don't return.
Hhhhmmmm

Bug chuckers got their wild fish wet dream.

Congrats.

I'm not sure I could even begin to say how disappointed I am in WDFW's years of failure in steelhead management. But first, I'm feeling a deep sense of loss for me personally. The last wild fish I took was in 1993, and I later released others even though I could have kept them. My last wild fish came on a memorable early spring day on the Satsop. Since then I've done everything that WDFW asked or dictated to save I was on the Steelhead Advisory Committee (very disappointing leadership from WDFW - when I advised we need to protect the wild fish, the employee said, "but I like to eat them". True story from the '90's. When organizations brought the-wild-fish- need -protection subject up it was ignored. I captured fish for the Satsop broodstock program that looked to me like it was working. Scientific papers from outside WDFW banged the drum about wild steelhead declines, but they were basically ignored, and now we know the long term result. I testified before the Commission about needed steelhead protections more than once. I've followed every new rule. I pinched the barbs, I quit removing fish from the water, I bought a knotless net, I quit using bait, etc. just like almost all of us did.

One of the problems is that the new fish managers have no institutional memory. I've fished the westside rivers for more than fifty four years, and now it's all done.

Terrible irreversible over harvest is the main issue. The Queets once had returns of up to fifty thousand steelhead! And its habitat is still pristine! We should have quit killing wild fish years ago, and most of us knew it. The tribes over harvested the resource years ago, and now they're paying the price. We had the legal means to limit their harvest when they were catching substantially much more than their fifty percent, and we ignored our statutory duty that would even have protected the tribes from this final result. The escapement goals were set politically, not biologically.

No one is in charge, and no one will be held accountable. In my previous career in fish and wildlife enforcement, if we made a serious mistake, we could be held accountable to the law, and even sued personally. But not neglectful fish managers who seem immune to any form of corrective action, even from upper level management.

As a good example of questionable management, why is it that The Peninsula rivers have total closures, and steelhead are not even listed?. But on the Columbia, you can buy a listed Chinook from a dealer for dinner? Who's running this department?

There were many prescriptive suggestions for helping preserve steelhead and steelhead fishing, and they were recklessly ignored. The whole debacle seems tragically similar to the bombing of Pearl Harbor, eighty years ago today. We had the warnings but failed to act. The loss of fishing on my favorite rivers, isn't killing thousands as the bombing did, but right now, in the home stretch of my life, I feel like it's killing me.

12/07/2021

Pearl Harbor Day, 12/07/1941.......Not many on PP, were born......I was, born 09/05/1940.

Many know my story, been in Aberdeen since 1968.....no Wynoochee Dam, No Bolt Decision, No gill nets in Humptulips river, no Cill nets during steelhead season in the Chehalis, Humptulips, Wynoochee, Satsop all had steelhead, many in the 25-30+ pound, late hook nose silvers Wynoochee and Satsop, Chehalis river during late November, December, January, many high teens, State Record Coho, at one time came off the Satsop.

During late 70's - early 80's there was a VERY active Chapter of North West Steelheaders.... I was club treasure for many years. Like Tug 3, I spent many hours brood stocking winter run steelhead on the Satsop, the program was working but like many fisheries, when the fish started to return.....the pressure on the river to "catch and kill" got to be more than the brood stocking could keep up with...

WDFW....after the 1994-95 merger of Dept. of Wild Life and Dept. of Salmon, steelhead took a back seat to salmon, WDFW was run by many UW people with lots of emphasis the commercial salmon bit.....steelhead took a back seat and to this day still do.....Salmon was where the $$$$$$$ were/are --- Willapa Bay, Columbia River, Puget Sound gill nets got way to much time....NOF, ugh some input but all about killing fish.......NEVER any WDFW lead meetings on how to protect steelhead, didn't want to stir the Bolt Decision 50/50 bit, afraid of the tribe, still are....tribes for sure took wild steelhead, even netted December to March/May

So here I sit, 82 in December and can't even fish salmon above Fuller Bridge, hell of a way to spend the latter part of my life....can't walk, balance problems or I'd be on rivers to the South, bank fishing..... Thanks WDFW for not doing your jobs 30-40 years ago....go ahead backup to the pay window, then tell everyone what a great job you're doing..............I think not, why not run a poll, only license people can vote..... 1 question, Is WDFW doing a good job???? Yes or No....

I vented.....now bed, only to face, another home day, with a paid for license that won't even give me "opportunity",,,,,,grrrrrrrrrr

A broad brushed comment like that is not totally accurate. Hatchery fish like wild are effected by the same environmental variables. Some years are better than others; many coastal hatchery programs are fairly successful. PS and south Puget sound hatcheries have mostly tanked and should be abandoned as you noted are a total waste of money and limited resources. The Wynoochie is a good example of tossing in the towel to the wild fish and creating a hatchery management zone. Unless it’s totally shut down indefinitely the wilds don’t stand a chance given the drift boat choo choo train that crick sees from December to March. Cowlitz is another one, good user access and a pre existing facility to produce large quantities of fish efficiently. (If there is such a thing). Hatchery management zone would also have great positive impact on the last few healthy pockets of wild fish by reducing pressure on those rivers. Let face it if humans had been around a few thousand years ago we may still have a few triceratops around……in a zoo!

Jim,
This could not be more true and I feel for you.
It's complete BS.
At least you saw the good years.

To add to Tug's comments, pre-merger WDW had 14 dedicated steelhead/anadromous CT positions. Post merger there were zero as all were absorbed in salmon duties.

My personal view is that WDFW prefers marine mixed-stock salmon fisheries with ocean and outer Straits being the highest priority. They will trade pretty much everything else to maximize those fisheries.

May have mentioned it before but at one of the old Steelhead/Cuttrhoat Advisory Group meetings Phil A (pre-Director years) was asked why recs could not have a C&R steelhead fishery the last half of April on the Hoh. Harvestable fish remained in the share. Phil's answer was that the fishery currently in place was "What we wanted" but never identified who we was or why less than 50% was satisfactory.

When I was on that advisory panel it seemed that all we did was warn about what was coming...it wasn't a secret, or hard to see...and here it is.

Fish on...

Todd

Well, yes Todd. The future (?) of steelhead and wild salmon has been been clear for decades and getting clearer.

I have an editorial cartoon from the Seattle Times (Alan Pratt, I think) from the 70s. It depicts a father showing his son a stuff salmon "Oncorhynchus longgone" and dad says "One abundant, disappeared a half at a time".

When the agencies were joined or as a WDG staffer once proclaimed at a training exercise " when WDF ate the WDG " , the only thing that I remember WDG dominated was amazingly enough accounts receivable or book keeping if you choose that description. That made sense though as WDF had and has serous difficulty complying to financial matters, "budget". The interesting part was when the new WDFW (old WDG ) staff set out applying WDG terminologies to past WDF contracts. I clearly remember that ladies name and attitude which was less than warm and fuzzy.

Senator Snyder once said that in creating one agency all that the agency did was was rearrange the chairs, give themselves new tittles and a raise, and destroy programs designed the average citizen. ( WDG programs ) I was hard pressed to argue differently then or now.

note: Ah CM I have so many not kind memories of JB and contracts!

I was in the hatcheries world at merger. Mr. Peck, maybe alone amongst all the managers in both agencies, actually planned for the merger. It gave him the opportunity to blow up both systems, create a new one, and significantly rewrite the job specs so that workers now were above food stamp pay. I liked the idea of throwing out both agency's way off doing things and coming up with a new way. I think most of the rest of the folks just sat back and let the waves wash over them.

It was, if one looked closely, a difficult operation. WDW believed that, for the most part, they worked for the license holder while WDF worked for the resource. WDW almost always worked on the cheap, as money was tight. I think that merger of the two enforcement arms was difficult (and Tug should be able to comment) because the WDW officers did lots more than enforce laws. They were quasi-biologists inn doing a lot of the stock assessment (big game), creel checks, and so on. They were much more than enforcement and they dealt with a significantly different clientele.

Am I missing something or is Washington State the only state (or province) which is curtailing or closing winter steelhead fishing? I haven't seen that California, Oregon or BC have closed steelhead fishing. Seems a little strange if WA is the only one closing it.

Skeena system shut down early this year.

You're missing a lot. There is a steelhead disaster up in BC that, numbers-wise, makes WA look monitor-league.

I'm reading Haig-Brown's Fisherman's Fall right now and dang if this whole thing isn't a giant broken record. He, I think, identified many of these problems almost 60 years ago! Back when fish runs were abundant by today's standard he was cautioning about lower fish runs, that people would ignore the problem and what the results of our apathy would be.

Prophetic and sad but yet, reading it is therapeutic.

Thanks for the info. The article that Illahee refers to pertains to low wild summer steelhead returns. We will see if this closure extends through the winter season. One would think so.

Glad to see you are still alive, shillster.


-Steamy

I am still alive, Steamy. But nothing to fish for.

Wonder if that would include the Dean R. BC? A system totally wild, isolated and strictly managed to a limited number of Fly Fishers only.

https://www.ginkandgasoline.com/fly-fishing-news/dean-river-steelhead-in-crisis/

According to that article the Dean suffers the same issues as the Fraser and Skeena...steelhead bycatch in the salmon net fisheries.

Fish on...

Todd

As much as we like to pis and moan about how poorly WDFW manages (?) steelhead they are so far ahead of DFO that they have lapped them a couple of times. Noah had more steelhead on the Ark than some of the formerly great BC streams. Lots of netting still going on.

Take the Skeena. This year's test fishery, which always occurred AFTER the net fisheries by the NI side recorded the fewest number of fish and there were NO fisheries.

Maybe CM and Salmo can comment on this. I am going to talk about winter steelhead on the Chehalis system. The state has closed winter steelhead fishing on this system this winter to protect the native steelhead. I live in the South Sound and used to fish the Puyallup and Nisqually for steelhead back in the day. I think the Puyallup has been close for wild steelhead retention about 40 years ago and the Nisqually since the early 90's. Now, both rivers are comletely closedfor steelhead. The wild steelhead runs have improved a little on some of the years on those rivers but never to the numbers to ever allow fishing again. Even CnR fishing. The wild runs will never come back. Getting back to the Chehalis and tribs, I am thinking that that system is following the same path as the Puy and Nis. No winter steelhead fishing again on that system as long as the state is concerned with recovery of wild steelhead. Thoughts?

I think your correct at least for Dec through Jan simply because there are not many Steelhead to be had plus the Late Coho have been nearly butchered out of existence by the incidental take going after Steelhead.

My thoughts are probably different than Salmos but......

The steelhead are depressed for a variety of reasons. In my mind, one of the largest is the lack of spawning salmon. So long as we keep salmon escapements low the steelhead runs will be low. And by low, I mean 5-10% of what's needed.

There are too few repeat spawners, which may be tied to lack of nutrients.

One thing about steelhead is that the adult return based rather strongly on what age they smolted at. Age-1 smolts return earliest, age-2 later, and age-3 the latest. This is one, and maybe the primary, reason why the hatchery fish returned earlier than the bulk of the wilds. If we want to restore the earlier returning component we need to decrease smolt age, which gets us back to nutrients.

The steelhead are also being hammered by the increases in various predators. Until they and the smolt numbers are better balanced, few smolts will make the ocean.

Ocean productivity is really low, for a variety of reasons. Until the aspects of that which humans can control (hatchery plants, over harvest of steelhead prey, etc) are controlled, we'll get few fish back.

We can recover our anadromous fish, if society wants to. At the same time, robust wild fish populations are likely unable to sustain the kill fisheries many desire.

A few years ago I compared the salmon returns (average annual spawners/mile) for the north OP rivers (Queets, Hoh, and Quileute) with those on North Puget Sound (Snohomish, Stillaguamish, Nooksack) over the 15 years of this century (using the info in WDFW SCORE).

At the time I believe it was generally conceded that the OP rivers had better habitat and more robust steelhead populations. For that period the average salmon spawners/mile on the OP rivers was approximately 100/mile. At the same time the average salmon spawner/mile on north Sound rivers was approximately 1000/mile.

On the North Sound rivers I have long thought that the benefits for spawned salmon carcass is being limited by those carcasses being washed to Puget Sound (feeding crabs?) by the fall/early winter floods rather than being capture and retained in the river by historic complex habitat structures.

Over the last 40 on the north Puget Sound rivers the number of repeat spawners (% of the previous year's escapement returning the next year) has been decreasing. That decline seems to be in at least part correlated with decreasing marine survivals.

For the wild winter steelhead of North Puget Sound their run timing seems to be more strongly related to their spawn timing. Those rivers with later spawn timing tend to have later run timings. That spawn timing is likely driven by the timing of the spring/summer run-off with the spawning timed so peak fry emergence occurs on the declining flows after the peak run-off. In those populations the adults gave the same general return timing regardless of their smolt age.

The two largest factors driving the status of those north Sound steelhead are the lack of functioning river process and the accompanying complex habitats and the significant early marine mortalities within Puget Sound itself. Without addressing these issues the PS steelhead are doomed.

Curt

Just any FYI that the currency for delivery of nutrients is kg of spawner per square metre of stream surface area (generally SLF). In studies of loading effects, the point of inflection between steep increase in positive benefits and a slower increase (the famous "hockey-stick") is about 2 kg per square metre. Do the math. One mile (1.6 km) of 10' (3m) creek would take a bit less than 10k kilograms. At a 2 kilo pink that is 5,000 2 kilo pinks in that mile.

1000 fish in a mile is a lot of fish but way down the list of what's needed. Other research has shown that a stream can accept and process up to 8 kg per square metre over the course of a year so the 2 kilo (or even 1-1.5) can be applied to each species of semelparous spawners.

And, there are places even in WA where these numbers have been approached and exceed. Small creeks, generally. but it has happened naturally.

There's not a lot I can add after reading C'man's and Smalma's posts. Generally, yes, the Chehalis (and OP) steelhead runs are following down the same path as the severely depressed Puyallup and Nisqually populations. I think it isn't for exactly the same reasons however. The OP rivers have the most intact freshwater habitat in the state, so it's fairly logical that those populations are the last to collapse. I think the Chehalis basin is kind of in between the OP and Puget Sound (PS) rivers in terms of freshwater habitat quality. The biggest difference affecting steelhead runs that I can see is that PS river populations have further to travel in estuarine-like waters before reaching the open ocean.

Smolt tagging studies over the last decade illustrate that heavy predation near the river mouths and in PS by marine mammals and some birds is severely limiting the proportion of the steelhead smolt population that makes it to the open ocean. Some of that same kind of predation affects OP and Chehalis steelhead too, but not nearly to as great an extent. We can see in PS populations that the further the distance from the river mouth to the open ocean, the higher the smolt mortality, with the Nisqually River, as the southern-most PS tributary, being the most severely affected.

The recent devastation to OP and Chehalis basin steelhead runs appears related to declining productivity in near-shore ocean waters - like the poor upwelling event that was documented just a few years ago - and more open ocean declines like the large "warm patch" in the central north Pacific (which happens to be the area most of our steelhead populations migrate to), and the potential impact of over-grazing of the north Pacific by massive numbers of Alaskan and Japanese hatchery chum and pink salmon releases, which also migrate to and forage in that central north Pacific zone. The apparent declining productivity there sure seems like it could be a final chapter in a doomsday scenario for PNW steelhead.

The saving grace for PNW steelhead, as opposed to the salmon, is that they can be both resident and anadromous from the same parents. So, if we can maintain strong populations of "rainbow" in the streams then when conditions for anadromy improve, they will take advantage of them. Has happened on the central/southern CA coast when drought kept the fish resident for decades if not longer. Salmon (except sockeye/kokanee) will be gone.

It is interesting that while most of the rivers in WA are closed for winter steelhead the rivers in Oregon remain open. I have it from reliable sources in Oregon that fishing had been quite good and is expected to be better this next month. Their fish seem to survive in the ocean quite well. So, do their fish inhabit the same part of the ocean as our WA steelhead or are we here in WA just more concerned with saving the wild steelhead? CM? Salmo? Smalma?

It is also quite interesting ,that here in WA, the Quinault (restricted) , Queets and Chehalis system are closed for winters but yet the Forks streams are open and said to be making escapement. Don't the steelhead from all those systems inhabit the same parts of the ocean? I can think of a few reasons but I would like to hear yours. Thanks.

There are some basic differences that may play into it. The OR fish don't have the Salish Sea, they go straight to the ocean similar to ort north coast stocks. In conversations with their bios, at least some of the streams are naturally productive due to the base rock, which makes them less dependent on salmon to deliver nutrients. I am not sure if OR had the massive Chambers Creek style management with the really high harvest rates and genetic influences. I don't think that OR has the intensive net fisheries on all the steelhead systems. Lastly, further conversations with bios down there indicates that repeat spawners are more abundant in OR than WA.

One might also want to look at the amount of effort, the amount of development and size of communities, and such.

First, I don't know all that much about OR rivers and fish stocks. Steelhead from the OR north coast rivers have roughly the same ocean migration path as WA coastal (and PS) rivers. Southern OR steelhead have a migration path that is more similar to the norther CA river systems. That difference in ocean migration coincides with the occurrence of "half-pounder" steelhead.

Second, has winter steelhead fishing been quite good across the board, or more narrowly, among your reliable sources? Sample size and type can account for a lot of variation. As for fishing ". . . expected to be better next month." is little more than conjecture, I hope you realize. It's not the same as a solid fact.

There is a lot of variation in WA rivers too, and it doesn't always vary in the same direction, either. Only two Forks area river systems are open, and we won't know until after the end of the season whether that is a good decision. In PS, the Snoqualmie, and to a lesser extent the Sky, are experiencing better than expected fishing on hatchery winter runs. Meanwhile, the Nooksack is closed and not expected to meet brood escapement needs, even though the Nooksack smots have a straighter shot to the open ocean than do the Snohomish basin smolts. Sometimes variation is not easy to explain.

Thanks CM and Salmo for your thoughts. Some of your thoughts were the same as mine. I am thinking that predation (marine mammals etc.) might be worse on some river systems than others. On the Chehalis system this might be true. The smolts from the tribs (Satsop, Wynooche. Skookunchuck etc.) have to migrate through the Chehalis and Grays harbor to get to the ocean. I know there is quite a large seal and sea lion problem in that system that the smolts (and the adult fish in the fall and winter) have to navigate. I don't know how those predator numbers compare to the other systems however. I would think that there is more tribal netting (for adults of course) in WA than OR. Just some thoughts.

Remember that netting, of any flavor (I or NI) does not have to be directed at steelhead to hammer steelhead. A Spring Chinook fishery has the potential (and has) hammered kelts. These fish aren't sold, so there is little record, but they don't repeat spawn. Chum fisheries, even "normal timed" will run into some steelhead. With marine net fisheries at least formerly running into late November there is the chance to hit steelies.

Based on my years in harvest management, I think we would be amazed if every single fish that was killed was counted. And I mean every fish caught by everybody. And accurately reported as to when and where. Too many times talking to netters, sporties, Enforcement, and so I was made aware of uncounted fish. Management is only as good as the numbers used. Models are only as good as the input.

I remember talking to an alaska commercial netter. He claimed that a big salmon run up there could spell doom for area steelhead, as they would take quite a few in the nets.
With so many expanded fisheries, it does not take long for a few fish here and there to cause some real trouble. One year I was talking to a tribal friend who was working on a boat that was taking whiting off the coast. I asked about by catch and he stated it was quite low. They were taking a 3 or 4 chinook a night, out of several metric tons of fish. The problem I saw, was that they were one of 3 or 4 four boats that were going to fish for over a month. (The Makah's alone were taking up to 25000 metric tons a year). That would mean their by catch, though small, could be up to 3 - 4 hundred fish. The entire sports fishery for area four was 350 fish.
Imagine how how many steelhead could be taking in herring fisheries, shrimp, all the draggers, purse seiners and others mining the ocean. Just a few per season per boat would probably doom many of our seasons. As one of them and they would say, it was tiny, less than 1/1000th of a percent of their catch. Keep pounding away and in the end, nothing is left. *** just for an added note, it looks like up to a high of 450,000 metric tons of whiting a year have been taken lately. Imagine if they took just one by-catch fish per ton.

That argument about minuscule bycatch is what has, I have heard, hammered the Yukon Chinook. I forget which fishery it is, by the Chinook bycatch is something like 00.01%; way too small to close the fishery. Unfortunately, that minuscule number is most of the run.