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#1058675 - 01/06/22 04:43 PM Re: Native Steelhead hatcheries [Re: Smalma]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4394
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
damn good rant!
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Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1058676 - 01/06/22 06:19 PM Re: Native Steelhead hatcheries [Re: Salman]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Double Damn Good Rant!
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#1058677 - 01/06/22 06:51 PM Re: Native Steelhead hatcheries [Re: Smalma]
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 17149
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Originally Posted By: Smalma
CM has it exactly right. Just a year to two before Todd was catching his first steelhead the three legs of Washington steelhead was a fish was a fish (hatchery and wild fish were the same), sport fishing was incapable of overfishing steelhead and escapement needs were only a redd/mile. Just 5 short years after Todd had caught that first steelhead a cadre of young fisheries biologist (nearly all coming to the agency in the 1970s) had changed that management paradigm in significant was: The first hatchery/wild steelhead studies were under way (Kalama River), basic wild steelhead studies underway on Snow Creek (the creek CM referred to); basic steelhead inventories under way in key basins, large scale creel surveys to sample the recreational steelhead catch, estimate angler effort, etc. were under way, mark selective fishing (folks remember those dread "fin cards") was being implemented, hatchery spawning protocols were being altered to reduce potential hatchery/wild interactions, spawning escapement goals being established, basin wide spawning surveys were under way to measure the escapement and management was adjusted to assure that meeting those spawning objectives were being met with wild steelhead spawners all the while generally meeting the newly federal mandated catch sharing.

Many of that cadre of young biologist were certifiable steelhead nuts, most not afraid to work long hours (60-hour weeks not uncommon) many willing to donate their weekends (and fishing) to assure so the tasks dedicated by the above changes were being full filled. All this was accomplished with little public support including the steelheaders themselves. Remember many hotly contested public meetings discussing such things like mark selective fishing, escapement goals, etc. that would be heavily attended with few "friendly faces" in the crowd. I remember well (and probably still have some of the well-earned scars obtained at these meetings) discussing the implementation of those previously mentioned fin cards on the Snohomish system that was attended by more than 300 folks where I could have easily counted the idea supporters on my two hands.

Of that cadre of young biologists that are still with us are now all retired drawing their "rocking chair" money now. With a doubt there were many mistakes made; they after all were inventing a new paradigm but there can be no denying their passion and the positive steelhead responses to those changes. Clearly my bias shows but my opinion is they collective advanced the science of steelhead management and significantly improved the status of the resource. Further it remains my opinion is we society not those biologists that failed the resource. Collective society as a whole has been unable or perhaps incapable to protect the needed fresh and marine waters ecosystems essential to support the 1980s steelhead abundance levels. It was and remains the responsibility of society not those biologists to provide that habitat protection.

End of the rant; not sorry about it.

Curt

Curt


_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#1058680 - 01/06/22 07:43 PM Re: Native Steelhead hatcheries [Re: Salman]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Originally Posted By: Smalma
CM has it exactly right. Just a year to two before Todd was catching his first steelhead the three legs of Washington steelhead was a fish was a fish (hatchery and wild fish were the same), sport fishing was incapable of overfishing steelhead and escapement needs were only a redd/mile. Just 5 short years after Todd had caught that first steelhead a cadre of young fisheries biologist (nearly all coming to the agency in the 1970s) had changed that management paradigm in significant was: The first hatchery/wild steelhead studies were under way (Kalama River), basic wild steelhead studies underway on Snow Creek (the creek CM referred to); basic steelhead inventories under way in key basins, large scale creel surveys to sample the recreational steelhead catch, estimate angler effort, etc. were under way, mark selective fishing (folks remember those dread "fin cards") was being implemented, hatchery spawning protocols were being altered to reduce potential hatchery/wild interactions, spawning escapement goals being established, basin wide spawning surveys were under way to measure the escapement and management was adjusted to assure that meeting those spawning objectives were being met with wild steelhead spawners all the while generally meeting the newly federal mandated catch sharing.

Many of that cadre of young biologist were certifiable steelhead nuts, most not afraid to work long hours (60-hour weeks not uncommon) many willing to donate their weekends (and fishing) to assure so the tasks dedicated by the above changes were being full filled. All this was accomplished with little public support including the steelheaders themselves. Remember many hotly contested public meetings discussing such things like mark selective fishing, escapement goals, etc. that would be heavily attended with few "friendly faces" in the crowd. I remember well (and probably still have some of the well-earned scars obtained at these meetings) discussing the implementation of those previously mentioned fin cards on the Snohomish system that was attended by more than 300 folks where I could have easily counted the idea supporters on my two hands.

Of that cadre of young biologists that are still with us are now all retired drawing their "rocking chair" money now. With a doubt there were many mistakes made; they after all were inventing a new paradigm but there can be no denying their passion and the positive steelhead responses to those changes. Clearly my bias shows but my opinion is they collective advanced the science of steelhead management and significantly improved the status of the resource. Further it remains my opinion is we society not those biologists that failed the resource. Collective society as a whole has been unable or perhaps incapable to protect the needed fresh and marine waters ecosystems essential to support the 1980s steelhead abundance levels. It was and remains the responsibility of society not those biologists to provide that habitat protection.

End of the rant; not sorry about it.

Curt

Curt

OK... fair enough, but I'm NOT buying all of it. It could have been done better. The necessary tasks required for meaningful steelhead conservation are simply too fragmented among too many agencies.

The diffusion of responsibility for protecting the viability of the species has been both a blessing and a curse. A blessing in that no single agency/entity could be expected to shoulder the breadth, depth, and complexity of habitat protection, hatchery production, AND harvest management... so the load of responsibility is split among multiple disciplines of expertise.

At the same time, it's a curse in that without a single authority to accountably coordinate these activities everywhere steelhead live, their meaningful execution becomes mission impossible. The same can be said for the rest of the salmonid family.

Biggest failure by far is on the habitat protection side of the equation... far too many uncoordinated cooks with their hands in the broth, too often at odds with one another. Human encroachment and overpopulation, particularly in Puget Sound, has "reclaimed" and altered habitat for human conveniences at the expense of the wild creatures that depend on the same real estate and the waters flowing thru it. Abundant populations of anadromous salmonids are simply incapable of co-existing with the environmental assault of millions of people.

The collective "WE" is the ultimate enemy.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1058681 - 01/06/22 08:03 PM Re: Native Steelhead hatcheries [Re: Salman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
'Bout covers it, Smalma. Tried to change the world.

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#1058684 - 01/06/22 10:21 PM Re: Native Steelhead hatcheries [Re: Salman]
On The Swing Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 783
Remember, to make sure it was gonna be extra hard the state decided that TWO sperate departments was the way to go in management...which of course had opposing viewpoints on a multitude of issues from harvest to..well, a S ton of things. Wildlife running steelhead and fisheries running the rest? It was doomed from the get go.
_________________________
Fish gills are like diesel engines, don't run them out of fuel!

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#1058686 - 01/07/22 07:42 AM Re: Native Steelhead hatcheries [Re: Salman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
It was not "The State" that decided two separate agencies were needed; it was the voters who did so by Initiative. They created two agencies. Essentially one for sport on one for commercial. "The State" had created a single agency. If memory serves, it was the Sporties who drove the change.

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#1058687 - 01/07/22 08:04 AM Re: Native Steelhead hatcheries [Re: Salman]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
An initiative sponsored by sportsman in 1932 separated the food fish (managed by the Department of fisheries whose director was appointed by the Governor) and game fish (managed by department of game with the director appointed by a 6 member commission).

In 1987 the Department of Game the Department of Wildlife formalizing an increased focus on non-game critters.

In 1994 things swung full circle with the two agencies being replaced by a single agency - today's Department of fish and wildlife. The two component agencies have two very different cultures with Fisheries with a heavy centralized structure and Game a much more regional/local structure. In regard to the anadromous salmonids the two agencies also have very different philosophies.

Curt

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#1058688 - 01/07/22 08:07 AM Re: Native Steelhead hatcheries [Re: Salman]
cohoangler Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 12/29/99
Posts: 1611
Loc: Vancouver, Washington
Those fish biologists from the 1970’s were doing the best they could under the circumstances they found themselves in. But one thing I’ve learned over that same time span is that we don’t need to manage these fish for them to survive. We need to manage the people and their impacts on the landscape.

These fish have been around for thousands of years. They don’t need us to ‘manage’ them to survive. In fact, they will do quite well without us. They just need us to get out of their way. They’ll be fine if we do that. But it seems like we just can’t.

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#1058691 - 01/07/22 10:57 AM Re: Native Steelhead hatcheries [Re: Salman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
My undergraduate eddication was not in WA, so I may have learned some different stuff. But my fish management prof, who also happened to be running CDFG's Inland Fish program, emphasized that resource management was people management first and foremost. That may have been the ultimate disconnect; agencies never educated the public as to what the resources needs were (exploitation, habitat, the whole enchilada) and the public was not all too clear about what it wanted (jobs, dead fish in the boat, McMansions).

Management of most everything has done a good job of siloing tasks so that they don't communicate amongst themselves.

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#1058698 - 01/07/22 02:12 PM Re: Native Steelhead hatcheries [Re: Carcassman]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Originally Posted By: Carcassman

Management of most everything has done a good job of siloing tasks so that they don't communicate amongst themselves.


Give that man a GOLD star.

This is the inescapable reality of bureaucratic diffusion of responsibility. Spreading the burden of accountability ultimately diminishes ANY accountability at all. Just encourages finger-pointing between the "siloed" agencies.... and nothing of meaningful benefit ever gets accomplished.
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1058699 - 01/07/22 02:14 PM Re: Native Steelhead hatcheries [Re: Salman]
No More Ice Fishin Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 417
Thanks for all the great information and historical perspective on here. It's super interesting.

I haven't looked at the plants or returns for the Skykomish lately, but my understanding is that the lack of plants from the Wild Fish Conservancy lawsuits would no longer be impacting this. Not sure if that info is right or not...but I thought I've seen talk of the SAR being abysmal all over Washington (including the Sky buy also on the OP). Meaning it's not just a Puget Sound thing or greater metro area development within watersheds or a tribal harvest thing...but that something is happening out in the ocean as the common denominator. I know, death by a thousand cuts, but interested in more details around the deepest cuts.

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#1058701 - 01/07/22 02:36 PM Re: Native Steelhead hatcheries [Re: No More Ice Fishin]
Bent Metal Offline
Carcass

Registered: 01/09/14
Posts: 2312
Loc: Sky River(WA) Clearwater(Id)
Originally Posted By: No More Ice Fishin
Thanks for all the great information and historical perspective on here. It's super interesting.

I haven't looked at the plants or returns for the Skykomish lately, but my understanding is that the lack of plants from the Wild Fish Conservancy lawsuits would no longer be impacting this. Not sure if that info is right or not...but I thought I've seen talk of the SAR being abysmal all over Washington (including the Sky buy also on the OP). Meaning it's not just a Puget Sound thing or greater metro area development within watersheds or a tribal harvest thing...but that something is happening out in the ocean as the common denominator. I know, death by a thousand cuts, but interested in more details around the deepest cuts.


I was looking at escarpment reports today and noticed it's business as usual for returns on Puget sound systems with fish on hand numbering 50-300 per hatchery facility, but what caught my attention was the Bogachiel had collected over 2,000 fish. Plant numbers were around 100k for the Bogey and the Sky, yet the coastal fish are doing better. The main obstacle being Puget sound and why folks here are basically saying it doesn't matter how many you plant, nothing will return. Perhaps we're better off planting more on the coast where the fish have a better chance at survival and eliminating hatchery fish in Puget sound?
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#1058702 - 01/07/22 03:25 PM Re: Native Steelhead hatcheries [Re: Bent Metal]
No More Ice Fishin Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/05/09
Posts: 417
What's the return ratio for the Sky these days compared to just a decade ago?

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#1058704 - 01/07/22 03:34 PM Re: Native Steelhead hatcheries [Re: Bent Metal]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Originally Posted By: Bent Metal
Originally Posted By: No More Ice Fishin
Thanks for all the great information and historical perspective on here. It's super interesting.

I haven't looked at the plants or returns for the Skykomish lately, but my understanding is that the lack of plants from the Wild Fish Conservancy lawsuits would no longer be impacting this. Not sure if that info is right or not...but I thought I've seen talk of the SAR being abysmal all over Washington (including the Sky buy also on the OP). Meaning it's not just a Puget Sound thing or greater metro area development within watersheds or a tribal harvest thing...but that something is happening out in the ocean as the common denominator. I know, death by a thousand cuts, but interested in more details around the deepest cuts.


I was looking at escarpment reports today and noticed it's business as usual for returns on Puget sound systems with fish on hand numbering 50-300 per hatchery facility, but what caught my attention was the Bogachiel had collected over 2,000 fish. Plant numbers were around 100k for the Bogey and the Sky, yet the coastal fish are doing better. The main obstacle being Puget sound and why folks here are basically saying it doesn't matter how many you plant, nothing will return. Perhaps we're better off planting more on the coast where the fish have a better chance at survival and eliminating hatchery fish in Puget sound?


Was happy to see that. Water/weather conditions so far made it tough to capitalize on it though. I'm sure those that caught the windows of opportunity did well.

As far as PS returns, keep in mind the Sky is the only system with any decent plant numbers and, correct me if I'm wrong, the only PS river with a completed HGMP that allows those planted numbers. The reason for poor survival has been IMO predation. I think the largest culprit, but hardly emphasized as a PS problem by anyone. I'll say it again, it's the easiest/quickest problem to change but the public and government does not have the stomach for it!
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#1058707 - 01/07/22 04:39 PM Re: Native Steelhead hatcheries [Re: Salman]
Bent Metal Offline
Carcass

Registered: 01/09/14
Posts: 2312
Loc: Sky River(WA) Clearwater(Id)
Agree RnG on the predators. They planted around 100k for the Sky(numbers similar to the Bogey).
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#1058708 - 01/07/22 04:41 PM Re: Native Steelhead hatcheries [Re: Salman]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
One of the surprises from the steelhead information collected in the 1980s was that Puget Sound hatchery steelhead consistently returned at less than 1/2 of the rates seen on the coast (same stocks). At the same time Puget Sound coho were returning at least 3 times the rate seen on coast coho.

Different fish preform differently in different habitats.

Curt

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#1058715 - 01/08/22 08:10 AM Re: Native Steelhead hatcheries [Re: Salman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
I think that the PS cutties had better "marine" survivals than the ocean-run stocks. So true, Smalma, how the species and stocks do the same thing differently.

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#1058716 - 01/08/22 08:17 AM Re: Native Steelhead hatcheries [Re: Smalma]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Originally Posted By: Smalma
One of the surprises from the steelhead information collected in the 1980s was that Puget Sound hatchery steelhead consistently returned at less than 1/2 of the rates seen on the coast (same stocks). At the same time Puget Sound coho were returning at least 3 times the rate seen on coast coho.

Different fish preform differently in different habitats.

Curt


The 80's was at the beginning of the increase in predator populations. i.e. cormorants and seals. Especially in PS. Over the years to today those population increases are in direct proportion to the decline in salmonid returns. The one factor that favors fish and fluctuates return success is turbid water conditions during inward or outward migration. Those predators have to see to hunt. The fish don't to migrate.


The ability is here now to at least tackle the cormorant issue. It's a fairly new ruling out since last Feb.

https://www.federalregister.gov/document...sted-cormorants

Since this ruling. Michigan has already begun to implement cormorant removal for the protection of their fishery stocks and benefit of the sportsman.

https://mucc.org/lethal-cormorant-contro...ement-strategy/

If the State won't, maybe the Tribes will make it happen!


Edited by RUNnGUN (01/08/22 08:47 AM)
_________________________
"Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while, you could miss it.” – Ferris Bueller.
Don't let the old man in!

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#1058721 - 01/08/22 11:19 AM Re: Native Steelhead hatcheries [Re: Salman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
You might get some level of predator control if the results were eaten. But kill and waste will be a public relations nightmare not only amongst the non-hunters/fishers but within those groups, too.

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