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#1058692 - 01/07/22 11:43 AM Hatchery Escapement report
steelhead59 Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 01/09/07
Posts: 152
Loc: Olympia, WA
The current Hatchery Escapement report shows 29 wild steelhead were released into landlocked lakes out of the Forks Creek Hatchery . WTF

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#1058693 - 01/07/22 12:08 PM Re: Hatchery Escapement report [Re: steelhead59]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28154
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
That's weird, I saw that this morning, too.

One wild fish caught at the Wynoochee trap was shipped to the Lake Aberdeen hatchery, too.

Anyone have any ideas?

Fish on...

Todd
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Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#1058695 - 01/07/22 12:50 PM Re: Hatchery Escapement report [Re: Todd]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4047
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
They take some wild brood to the Aberdeen Lake Hatchery for genetics in the dam mitigation production. They pass many up stream of the dam both hatchery and wild. DW has tracked it for years so I imagine he can fill in the blanks.
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Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1058696 - 01/07/22 01:41 PM Re: Hatchery Escapement report [Re: steelhead59]
On The Swing Offline
Spawner

Registered: 02/06/03
Posts: 769
Saw that as well, figured that any steelhead they can get ahold of this year over egg take will go the same way. Why release hatchery fish above the lake, or any area where we cant get after them? Put them in lakes and conquer the arguement of passing on the genetics AND providing some lucky angler with what's gonna be a hell of a fight...
I would assume we'll save a bit of money on those operations trucking those fish around as well...the skookumchuck comes to mind where some fish take the ride 4 times.
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Fish gills are like diesel engines, don't run them out of fuel!

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#1058697 - 01/07/22 02:12 PM Re: Hatchery Escapement report [Re: steelhead59]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28154
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
The original question, though...

29 wild steelhead taken out of the Forks Creek trap and put into a "landlocked lake".

Why?

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#1058705 - 01/07/22 03:48 PM Re: Hatchery Escapement report [Re: Todd]
darth baiter Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 149
Loc: United States
I contacted WDFW regarding the escapement report. The wild Willapa fish were released back into the river above the trap. It was a inadvertent carry over on what was done with the released hatchery fish. The comment on the wilds is being corrected.

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#1058706 - 01/07/22 04:22 PM Re: Hatchery Escapement report [Re: darth baiter]
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28154
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Originally Posted By: darth baiter
I contacted WDFW regarding the escapement report. The wild Willapa fish were released back into the river above the trap. It was a inadvertent carry over on what was done with the released hatchery fish. The comment on the wilds is being corrected.


That makes good sense...thanks for the follow up!

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


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#1058724 - 01/08/22 12:12 PM Re: Hatchery Escapement report [Re: steelhead59]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 4963
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
01/08/2022

Wynoochee River/Wynoochee Lets talk WDFW/TCL fish management on this excellent Grays Harbor River..

I've been getting the "trap report" since the middle 80's. There are 3 places that fish are placed when the fish are removed from the trap.

1. Above the Dam, North end of lake...about 4 miles of spawning water, then a fall stop movement

2. Above the man made small dam to the base of Wynoochee Dam, about 2 miles of river, used for spawning of Chinook, Coho and steelhead

3. Lake Aberdeen hatchery, used for brood stock

Trap is operated 7 months a year, October 1 - April 30. Fish that show at the trap are, Chinook, Wild Coho (no hatchery WDFW Choice), wild and hatchery steelhead and some summer run steelhead.

I'll use 2020 - 2021 for this posting

Coho, adult..................656, placed above Dam Jack 21......Above Dam
Coho, adult ...................53, between dams
Chinook, 1 above Dam....29 between dams

Steelhead, Native/wild.......72 above Dam, 57 Lake Aberdeen Hatchery
Steelhead Hatchery...........559 above the dam, 166 Lake Aberdeen Hatchery

Recycled Steelhead.....57, don't know what these are

No way for the adult fish to get past the Wynoochee Lake Dam, so all steelhead and salmon die. Also spawning area 4 miles, for 656 Coho and 631 steelhead.

Any smolt out go, have to go thru the dam.....depends on who you talk to, different smolt kill numbers.

Tacoma City Light does their job....trucking fish above dams. WDFW uses fish from the trap to be used as brood.

Many sportsmen don't think ANY wild steelhead should be trucked above the dam. problem is what to do with them?????
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"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#1058725 - 01/08/22 01:16 PM Re: Hatchery Escapement report [Re: steelhead59]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 6754
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
If you release the wild steelhead below the trap they will likely go find somewhere else to spawn. Plenty of time steelhead have been seen to enter one stream, leave, and go to another. Even separate watersheds.

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#1058726 - 01/08/22 01:18 PM Re: Hatchery Escapement report [Re: steelhead59]
Krijack Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/03/06
Posts: 1453
Loc: Tacoma
what would the odds be that these wild fish would spawn below the trap if they were simply recycled down stream. Seems like a better idea than simply putting them above the dam if the smolt will not survive anyways. In the past, I thought some hatcheries would simply shut the gate to the entrance, forcing the fish to find somewhere to spawn below it.

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#1058728 - 01/08/22 01:49 PM Re: Hatchery Escapement report [Re: Krijack]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4047
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
Releasing any fish below the trap does little as they simply will line up in the trap again. Many have advocated shutting the trap once brood numbers for the mitigation are taken but then you have the mitigation fish spawning with wild. I remember one gentlemen in a meeting climbing right in the deputy directors face with " just what the hell do you think they do when put above the trap" By the way they could use 100% wild brood every year and pass clipped up which would go a long ways toward ending genetic degradation.

My question has always been how many juveniles survive the out migration? We were told by staff that the lake is to cold to rear Coho in net pens and get them up to size so how do Steelhead prosper? The lake is a very sterile lake so just are these juveniles foraging on? The list goes on and on with more questions than answers.
_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1058729 - 01/08/22 02:10 PM Re: Hatchery Escapement report [Re: steelhead59]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 6754
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
IF you are consistently getting back X wild fish, and putting X wild fish up there, then it is working. If it wasn't working, they would go extinct. If they are strays, they why are they being passed?

Up there being between the dams; putting anadromous above the big dam is nice for nutrients but crap for production.

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#1058732 - 01/08/22 05:28 PM Re: Hatchery Escapement report [Re: steelhead59]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 4963
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
01/08/2022

I'm glad some retired WDFW are following this thread....

I have a question...... Creek/small river flows into the lake....its about 4 miles in length, then there is a "falls" that stop fish from going further.

Question......with 656 Coho and then about 600 w/H steelhead, is there enough spawning area????

I remember 1 year, long time ago, there was 5500+ Coho trucked over the Dam.

Reason I don't want Wild steelhead trucked up over the Dam, they can't get out....these are the very same fish we are shut down because the numbers are so low...
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#1058733 - 01/08/22 08:05 PM Re: Hatchery Escapement report [Re: steelhead59]
seabeckraised Online   content
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/12/21
Posts: 139
Loc: Mason County
Making sure that Iím following this correctly. The steelhead (including native) that are released above the dam/lake to spawn have no way to make it back downstream after spawning?

Iím fully aware not all steelhead choose to spawn in headwaters, as Iíve caught several from crossover down in late January, no eggs remaining, and barely a lick of color of them. I truly believe some fish choose to get in and get out ASAP, maybe as an adaption to the rivers blowing out so frequently now. Why risk staying in the river for 3-5 months while contending with several major rain, silt, and debris events when there may be good side channels in the lower river to spawn?

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#1058735 - 01/08/22 09:21 PM Re: Hatchery Escapement report [Re: seabeckraised]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 4963
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Originally Posted By: seabeckraised
Making sure that Iím following this correctly. The steelhead (including native) that are released above the dam/lake to spawn have no way to make it back downstream after spawning?



That is my understanding..........

Just a comment on the "spawn out steelhead".....Because of where I live, its easy to drive to the Black Ck. boat launch, when we had seasons, get there about 2:30, hang around an hour or more as the drift and jet boats were coming in....saw bright fish, dark fish, ugly fish.....lots of the ugly fish in December, January were summer run or the very early winter run.
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#1058738 - 01/08/22 10:22 PM Re: Hatchery Escapement report [Re: steelhead59]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 6754
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
To run some calculations, with 4 miles of river is, say, 6000m. say a 10m width (at slf) that gives 60,000 sq m. At 2 kg/sq m that would be 120,000 kg of coho. say the average coho was 4 kg. That gives 30,000 spawners. So, 600 is next to nothing. Both coho and steelhead are spawn high/rear lower fish. The fry seed downstream and the tendency is to have more spawners higher up so the fry can, in theory, move downstream, into and thorough the lake, and seed lower down.

Speaking of kelts, we handled a lot through our trap. On more than a few occasions we got females that were spawned out, chrome bright, and recovering condition nicely as they were gorging on Carpenter Ants. We also got some fungus-up fish that probably screamed really loudly when they hit the salt.

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#1058740 - 01/09/22 07:32 AM Re: Hatchery Escapement report [Re: DrifterWA]
seabeckraised Online   content
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/12/21
Posts: 139
Loc: Mason County
Originally Posted By: DrifterWA
Originally Posted By: seabeckraised
Making sure that Iím following this correctly. The steelhead (including native) that are released above the dam/lake to spawn have no way to make it back downstream after spawning?



That is my understanding..........

Just a comment on the "spawn out steelhead".....Because of where I live, its easy to drive to the Black Ck. boat launch, when we had seasons, get there about 2:30, hang around an hour or more as the drift and jet boats were coming in....saw bright fish, dark fish, ugly fish.....lots of the ugly fish in December, January were summer run or the very early winter run.



Definitely some late summer spawners around that time of year. Caught a summer run last December on that same drift. Super colored up, VERY skinny. Obviously hatchery clipped as well. My initial comment is regarding unclipped fish in specific. Based on the size and color, 99% sure they arenít summer run fish.

Still amazes me that thereís no chance for natives to repeat spawn if they go above the dam. Not sure how it would even work if they attempted to outmigrate after spawning. Would they just get to the base of the reservoir and then get caught in the turbine system?

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#1058741 - 01/09/22 08:36 AM Re: Hatchery Escapement report [Re: steelhead59]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 6754
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Yeah, they'd get retained in the reservoirs. One possibility, if there was a fish-based forage base, is that they would remain in the lake, recover, and then spawn again. The drive to survive and spawn is strong.

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#1058743 - 01/09/22 08:44 AM Re: Hatchery Escapement report [Re: Carcassman]
seabeckraised Online   content
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 05/12/21
Posts: 139
Loc: Mason County
Good point. Iím sure thereís more than one anecdote of very large ďrainbowsĒ being caught in the lake. Imagine THAT on a trout setup to an unsuspecting angler!

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#1058744 - 01/09/22 08:57 AM Re: Hatchery Escapement report [Re: steelhead59]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 6754
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Just ask Rivrguy........... Big fish, "trout" gear.

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