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#1059523 - 04/15/22 06:57 AM Lake Washington Sockeye origin
Salman Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 806
I read a couple articles stating Lake Washington’s Sockeye, Steelhead, and Chinook were all planted not of native origin. Can anyone confirm or deny this?
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#1059524 - 04/15/22 09:04 AM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye origin [Re: Salman]
RUNnGUN Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/06/07
Posts: 1382
Keep in mind the Cedar never entered Lk. WA. That was man made during the ship canal project 1912-16 ish. I believe the Cedar ran into what was the "Black River", now culverted in it's entirety. The Black drained the South Lk. Wa area, then ran into the Green R. Back then, I'm sure Salmon and Steelhead populated the Black and Cedar via the Green. Leave it up to man to f all that up.
The Sockeye were introduced in the 30's after the Cedar was diverted into Lk WA. Sockeye need a lake river system to survive. The success of the Lk. WA Sockeye was because of the fertile/polluted lake. The 90's into 2000 Lk WA was cleaned up such that the Sockeye food supply, zooplankton, diminished. This, along with an increase in predators has impacted the Sockeye population what it is today. Even with the hatchery in operation the numbers will never reach what they used to be. Either the 300k return threshold to sportfish for them in the lake needs to be reduced, or we will never fish for them again. Tribes are happy. They still get to harvest a historically introduced fish not native to the system. The introduced Sockeye was a good idea, but you need a dirty lake for them to thrive. My buddy grew up in Renton through the 50's and told me stories how their dad used to wash them off with a hose after swimming in the lake. That's how good it was for the Sockeye. Or, how bad it was for swimmers.


Edited by RUNnGUN (04/15/22 09:22 AM)
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#1059525 - 04/15/22 09:45 AM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye origin [Re: Salman]
GoPro Hero Offline
Smolt

Registered: 06/11/21
Posts: 82
With all the native fish gone the state should just plant millions of sockeye and make it a urban fishing destination for sporties. The state could also put lots of feed in their for them to grow them big. It could be like the old days. Could probably get some killer video footage bro!
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#1059527 - 04/15/22 10:08 AM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye origin [Re: Salman]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
Originally Posted By: Salman
I read a couple articles stating Lake Washington’s Sockeye, Steelhead, and Chinook were all planted not of native origin. Can anyone confirm or deny this?


I have a copy of the original US Fish & Wildlife Service report by the biologist who first planted Baker Lake origin sockeye in the Cedar River and also Issaquah Creek too, if I remember correctly. This occurred after the Cedar was diverted into Lake Washington from the Black River and the Lk WA outlet changed from the Black River to the Lake Union ship canal and the Ballard locks.

As far as I know, the Cedar had an endemic native run of both steelhead and Chinook. There is no logical reason why they wouldn't since the Cedar historically had ready access to anadromy.

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#1059528 - 04/15/22 10:10 AM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye origin [Re: GoPro Hero]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
Originally Posted By: GoPro Hero
With all the native fish gone the state should just plant millions of sockeye and make it a urban fishing destination for sporties. The state could also put lots of feed in their for them to grow them big. It could be like the old days. Could probably get some killer video footage bro!


The City of Seattle Water Department has been planting millions of sockeye for years now, and no urban fishing destination has materialized. The Water Depatment's hatchery came on line just as Lake Washington productivity was plummeting due to several factors that may not be able to be "fixed."

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#1059529 - 04/15/22 10:52 AM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye origin [Re: Salman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Genetic data suggests that sockeye were native to the system before the stocking of Baker fish. There were both native sockeye and kokanee. The sockeye were in north end (Big Bear) and Sammamish. The Baker stock, based one recent genetic studies, colonized the Cedar and the lacustrine spawners in the southern lake.

Steelhead and Chinook were both native, including a Spring run that was still marginally around in the 70s. Stocking, particularly at Issaquah and the UW, brought in lots of "foreign" stocks.

I have seen some thoughts that the original mykiss in the watershed ("original" being in the 50s) was primarily resident. Stocking of Chambers Creek fish enhanced an anadromous component but they likely had little genetic impact because Chambers fish tend to be reproductively incompetent. Mykiss tend to switch from anadromous to resident and back again depending on environmental conditions. I believe that one of the drivers of the anadromous crash in the system is that being anadromous, predation on juveniles and adults from the locks to the ocean and back again and the really poor situation of moving fresh/salt and salt to fresh (immediate rather than gradual) makes being resident and better life choice.

That said, changes in flow, temperatures, development, and so on suggest to me that walleye are a more likely choice for a dominant species in the watershed.

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#1059530 - 04/15/22 11:18 AM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye origin [Re: Salman]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 5074
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
04/15/2022

My junior high years, 1953-1955, were spent in Redmond. Bear Creek ran into the Sammamish Slough about where the golf course is. The Sammamish Slough ran into Lake Washington, around Bothell.

Around the Avondale Road and the road going to Union Hill, in Bear Creek there was a weir. I do remember, "what seemed like to me" thousands of sockeye both in the weir and down stream. I also remember Bear Creek, above the weir, with thousands of spawned out, dead sockeye.

I have no idea if that weir is even there, would guess not because Redmond today, far cry from the Redmond of my youth.

Anyone know if sockeye still enter Bear Creek??????
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#1059531 - 04/15/22 11:33 AM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye origin [Re: Salman]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 5074
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
04/15/2022

The following is a interesting read:

https://www.webapps.nwfsc.noaa.gov/assets/25/5589_06172004_120234_sockeye.pdf


I learned quite a bit....
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"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

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#1059534 - 04/15/22 02:44 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye origin [Re: Carcassman]
Flatbrim Pescador Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 07/13/21
Posts: 413
Originally Posted By: Carcassman
That said, changes in flow, temperatures, development, and so on suggest to me that walleye are a more likely choice for a dominant species in the watershed.


Walleye fight like a wet sock, eating is OK, not really much of a sportfishery. Even the addicted bros don't even make walleye videos because nobody cares.

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#1059535 - 04/15/22 03:15 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye origin [Re: Salman]
5 * General Evo Offline
Lord of the Chums

Registered: 03/29/14
Posts: 6825
was just on Lake Wa today with my buddy, there is a fish trap at Carco park that lets hardly anything through, they got under 3k fish back last year.. the tribe operates that trap...

you can see the trap driving over the river on 405...
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#1059537 - 04/15/22 04:44 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye origin [Re: Salman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
That is the trap to collect broodstock for the sockeye hatchery. The sockeye run, even with the hatchery, kinda sucks now.

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#1059538 - 04/15/22 04:59 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye origin [Re: Carcassman]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
This time of year, it's likely the juvenile/smolt trap operation.

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#1059539 - 04/15/22 05:04 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye origin [Re: Salman]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
This is a little old but it's still probably the best review of status (at the time) and history of most West Coast Chinook salmon populations. It even has a pretty good historical look at the various hatchery stocks brought into different drainages. Warning, Big report!

https://www.webapps.nwfsc.noaa.gov/assets/25/7190_07042012_124647_Myers.et.al.1998-rev.pdf

There are others for the other species, including sockeye....I will look for them too.


Edited by JustBecause (04/15/22 05:06 PM)

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#1059540 - 04/15/22 05:19 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye origin [Re: JustBecause]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
Here's the sockeye report from 1997:

https://www.webapps.nwfsc.noaa.gov/assets/25/5589_06172004_120234_sockeye.pdf

Just search for Lake Washington, Cedar, and Big Bear Creek.

Happy reading!

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#1059541 - 04/15/22 06:03 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye origin [Re: Salman]
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
Surprising the Cedar River Chinook which is managed for a natural escapement is the most robust Chinook population in South Puget Sound and the only one with an average Recruits/spawner ration greater than 1 (actually replacing itself).

While the annual S/R is highly variable the average being above 1.0 makes it the only system outside of the Skagit and Snohomish basin meeting that minimal standard of productivity (note there were several PS systems where I could not find the S/R information).

curt

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#1059542 - 04/15/22 06:03 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye origin [Re: Salman]
5 * General Evo Offline
Lord of the Chums

Registered: 03/29/14
Posts: 6825
There was dead kings in it last year.. They were also using it in November and December of last year, how many sockeye are running then?

I'm kinda thinking zero..
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ANTIFA IS A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION


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#1059543 - 04/15/22 06:18 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye origin [Re: Salman]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Sockeye (did) move upstream into December and even January.

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#1059544 - 04/15/22 06:33 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye origin [Re: Salman]
Salman Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/07/12
Posts: 806
I think the state needs to step up and allow at least 1 Sockeye fishery a year on the lake. 1-5 days long. Longer with more fish. It’s just not right to be looking at that piece of water and no fishery for years on end.
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#1059545 - 04/15/22 06:58 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye origin [Re: Salman]
Flatbrim Pescador Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 07/13/21
Posts: 413
Right after they step up and open the Skok.

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#1059548 - 04/16/22 06:39 PM Re: Lake Washington Sockeye origin [Re: Salman]
milt roe Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/22/06
Posts: 925
Loc: tacoma
I think it would be safe assume that there were sockeye in Lake Washington historically, given the presence of Kokanee in the system and the availability of excellent habitat suitable to support rubust populations there. Many less optimal Puget Sound systems still have remnant populations or at least were known to have them. The White River has regular returns of a small number of adult sockeye. I have seen them in snorkel surveys near the Clearwater confluence. McCallister Creek had a decent and sustinable population of sockeye at the McCallister springs pond until they were deliberately extirpated by WDF to address presumed municipal water quality concerns. Kitsap Lake had a fairly big run until it was also intentionally extirpated. Skokomish tributaries, Elwha at Lake Sutherland, any number of streams with a lake and suitable habitat had them. It is safe to assume that historically, systems with suitable accessible habitat all supported sockeye to some degree.

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