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#1061070 - 11/29/22 05:17 PM The Paradox of Salmon Hatcheries
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
This 4-part series takes an in-depth "no BS" look at the full history of artificial propagation of Pacific salmon... the good, the bad, and the ugly. Lots of winter-time reading material here to pass the time during unfishable river conditions. Each article is written in a highly informative style to maintain your interest, but sorry... no "easy button" 4th grade level sound-bytes here. It's actually gonna take some effort to fully digest the material to arrive at a truly informed opinion.


The Paradox of Salmon Hatcheries


https://hakaimagazine.com/features/the-hatchery-crutch-how-we-got-here/


https://hakaimagazine.com/features/too-many-pinks-in-the-pacific/


https://hakaimagazine.com/features/the-hail-mary-hatcheries/


https://hakaimagazine.com/features/tribal-hatcheries-and-the-road-to-restoration/
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"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1061072 - 11/29/22 07:08 PM Re: The Paradox of Salmon Hatcheries [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Hatcheries have a long and interesting history. Will make for good reading.

From the beginnings of hatcheries in the dim past they were primarily intended to replace lost habitat AND replace management based on what nature gives us. Humans can always do better than nature. Nature is wasteful in that few of the eggs make it to fish we can put on our tables.

Is there any natural resource that we harvest commercially (or even for subsistence) that is managed solely on natural ecosystems? Not only things like fish and game but timber, food plants/fruits. There are simply too many people to lie solely off of natural ecostsystems.

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#1061079 - 11/30/22 01:41 PM Re: The Paradox of Salmon Hatcheries [Re: eyeFISH]
eddie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 2432
Loc: Valencia, Negros Oriental, Phi...
Thanks Doctor!
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"You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman"

R.P. McMurphy - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest

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#1061090 - 12/01/22 09:44 AM Re: The Paradox of Salmon Hatcheries [Re: eyeFISH]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
I wish I could get my hands on the data for a fifth article on hatcheries in WA state. I would like to see an audit, hatchery by hatchery, of how many $$ it costs to return one Chinook and one coho salmon the the WA recreational creel, contrasted against how many Chinook and coho from that hatchery accrue to Canadian, Alaskan, WA commercial troll, and WA treaty fisheries.

What, exactly, are WA taxpayers and license buyers getting by way of return on investment (ROI) from WA state's salmon hatcheries? Are they getting a reasonable ROI? Or are they getting fleeced? And if it's the latter, why are we giving WDFW this money to spend this way?

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#1061093 - 12/01/22 11:56 AM Re: The Paradox of Salmon Hatcheries [Re: eyeFISH]
eddie Offline
Carcass

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 2432
Loc: Valencia, Negros Oriental, Phi...
Fair questions Steve!
_________________________
"You're not a g*dda*n looney Martini, you're a fisherman"

R.P. McMurphy - One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest

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#1061098 - 12/01/22 01:32 PM Re: The Paradox of Salmon Hatcheries [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Salmo, back in the 90s or early 00s WDFW did have an analysis of cost to put fish into creel. Some Chinook stocks were over $100/fish. They know.....

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#1061099 - 12/01/22 04:53 PM Re: The Paradox of Salmon Hatcheries [Re: Salmo g.]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4393
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
WA recreational creel? I am sure some hatcheries exist from old game that are Rec driven but WDFW is about marine harvest. Under Anderson the cost benefit ratio went down the tubes with production cut backs but staffing and operating cost stayed static . If Chinook to correctly gage the end benefit AK & BC must be calculated in. WA coast and terminal fisheries are just cleaning up left overs.

Even when you have a good year WDFW finds a way to screw it up as this year on the Chehalis.
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#1061101 - 12/01/22 06:19 PM Re: The Paradox of Salmon Hatcheries [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Hatcheries can be "profitable". The purpose of Opening Day for trout was a ginormous fund raiser. License sales supported the agency; they worked very hard to get people to buy licenses. So, the hatcheries were "profitable".

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#1061103 - 12/02/22 10:18 AM Re: The Paradox of Salmon Hatcheries [Re: Salmo g.]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
Salmo,

Not state funded but many Mitchell Act stations are run by WDFW. In a gross sense, it looks like for the Mitchell Act programs, there is a 2-3.5x economic impact for the hatchery production (Chinook, coho, steelhead). So MA funds $15-25M/year and the econ benefit is roughly $53M (2009 $). Obviously not all of this accrues to the local fisheries or economy but much of it does.

https://media.fisheries.noaa.gov/2022-03/mitchell-act-fact-sheet.pdf

Again, not state funded programs and not at the station-level but the only recent reference I could easily find regarding your question...

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#1061104 - 12/02/22 10:20 AM Re: The Paradox of Salmon Hatcheries [Re: Carcassman]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
Agree with Carc.

The state's trout and kokanee programs are by far the best value for the license dollar.

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#1061105 - 12/02/22 10:29 AM Re: The Paradox of Salmon Hatcheries [Re: Rivrguy]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
Originally Posted By: Rivrguy
WA recreational creel? I am sure some hatcheries exist from old game that are Rec driven but WDFW is about marine harvest. Under Anderson the cost benefit ratio went down the tubes with production cut backs but staffing and operating cost stayed static . If Chinook to correctly gage the end benefit AK & BC must be calculated in. WA coast and terminal fisheries are just cleaning up left overs.

Even when you have a good year WDFW finds a way to screw it up as this year on the Chehalis.


Yes, WDFW (the Washington Department of Salmon) is about marine harvest. My point however, is that salmon harvests in AK and BC are not benefits to WA taxpayers. And hatchery salmon harvested in commercial fishing in WA are more of a direct economic subsidy (welfare) than a legitimate ROI to WA taxpayers. It's even a bit of a stretch to call the recreational creel a ROI, but I'll take it since that's how we calculate the benefit of the trout hatchery program, which does seem to pay its way.

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#1061106 - 12/02/22 10:33 AM Re: The Paradox of Salmon Hatcheries [Re: eyeFISH]
Salmo g. Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13520
JustBecause,

Mitchell Act hatcheries need to be considered differently because they are federally funded and not just by WA state taxpayers. Those Mitchell Act hatcheries provide more benefits to BC and AK than to WA, but they are necessary mitigation for the federal dams on the Columbia and Snake Rivers.

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#1061107 - 12/02/22 11:26 AM Re: The Paradox of Salmon Hatcheries [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7411
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Again working back into the dim past it was obvious to me (from the inside) that WDG and WDF both managed fisheries for what they as individuals enjoyed fishing for (how and where). When I came to WDF most of the fish folks owned boats and fished marine waters. I had a damn hard time getting a freshwater salmon fishery even considered.

Look at it now. How many walk and wade fisheries are there? WA does have some pretty good boat based fisheries in fresh and salt. I suspect that in addition to being the way "they" like to fish it is also the fishery that has the highest economic benefit. As we have always argued, whey chase something around the ocean when it is going to come home to the river? Because we make more money chasing them.

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#1061108 - 12/02/22 11:32 AM Re: The Paradox of Salmon Hatcheries [Re: eyeFISH]
cohoangler Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 12/29/99
Posts: 1611
Loc: Vancouver, Washington
As usual, Salmo g is asking good questions. Here are a few observations and opinions.

Much of the fisheries in SE AK are not composed of commercial folks from AK. Many of them are based in Seattle. Ideally, it would be better if those folks to wait for the salmon to migrate south to WA waters before harvesting them, but that’s not what they do. Low-holing them in SE AK seems to be preferred. Nevertheless, if we want to consider ROI, the origin of the fleet (e.g., Seattle) that is catching those fish should be considered.

Over the past two years, the Canadians have almost eliminated commercial harvest of Chinook off the BC coast. The intent is to help feed orcas (SRKW). This had the unintended benefit of putting a lot more fall Chinook into the Columbia River this past year. So, the ROI for Columbia River fall Chinook this past year would likely be considerably different than in years past.

Ditto for the fisheries off Sekiu. There was likely a lot more salmon originating from WA State hatcheries this past year because of the reduction in BC harvest.

As Carcassman has suggested, WDFW seems to have determined that fall Chinook salmon have the highest ROI. That should not be surprising. Fall Chinook can be raised by the millions for pennies. They have a sub-yearling life history, so the adults spawn in Sept/Oct, the fry hatch in winter, become smolt in early spring, and are released in April/May. So there is very little need to feed them before they are released. And they don’t spend the summer in the hatchery so densities are not an issue. Again, without the concern for fish feed or density-dependent issues (warm water/disease), fall Chinook are cheap and easy to raise.

And since fall Chinook are the target of the marine fisheries off the coast of WA, they have the highest contribution to the economy of coastal Washington communities. There is lots of $$’s wrapped up in boats, fuel, tackle, hotels, etc in this fishery. Not so much for bank anglers (such as I) who fish locally without spending much time or money doing it.


Edited by cohoangler (12/02/22 12:01 PM)

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#1061109 - 12/02/22 11:45 AM Re: The Paradox of Salmon Hatcheries [Re: Salmo g.]
JustBecause Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 07/18/08
Posts: 237
Yes, I disclaimed as such, re WA taxpayers. The numbers disagree with your statement about where the benefits accrue, with 2/3 of the harvest-related benefits accruing in the Columbia basin, which don't even account for the portion of the Puget Sound/Pacific ocean catch that occurs in our waters.

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#1061120 - 12/03/22 11:58 AM Re: The Paradox of Salmon Hatcheries [Re: cohoangler]
darth baiter Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 04/04/10
Posts: 199
Loc: United States
Originally Posted By: cohoangler
As usual, Salmo g is asking good questions. Here are a few observations and opinions.

Much of the fisheries in SE AK are not composed of commercial folks from AK. Many of them are based in Seattle. Ideally, it would be better if those folks to wait for the salmon to migrate south to WA waters before harvesting them, but that’s not what they do. Low-holing them in SE AK seems to be preferred. Nevertheless, if we want to consider ROI, the origin of the fleet (e.g., Seattle) that is catching those fish should be considered.

Over the past two years, the Canadians have almost eliminated commercial harvest of Chinook off the BC coast. The intent is to help feed orcas (SRKW). This had the unintended benefit of putting a lot more fall Chinook into the Columbia River this past year. So, the ROI for Columbia River fall Chinook this past year would likely be considerably different than in years past.

Ditto for the fisheries off Sekiu. There was likely a lot more salmon originating from WA State hatcheries this past year because of the reduction in BC harvest.

As Carcassman has suggested, WDFW seems to have determined that fall Chinook salmon have the highest ROI. That should not be surprising. Fall Chinook can be raised by the millions for pennies. They have a sub-yearling life history, so the adults spawn in Sept/Oct, the fry hatch in winter, become smolt in early spring, and are released in April/May. So there is very little need to feed them before they are released. And they don’t spend the summer in the hatchery so densities are not an issue. Again, without the concern for fish feed or density-dependent issues (warm water/disease), fall Chinook are cheap and easy to raise.

And since fall Chinook are the target of the marine fisheries off the coast of WA, they have the highest contribution to the economy of coastal Washington communities. There is lots of $$’s wrapped up in boats, fuel, tackle, hotels, etc in this fishery. Not so much for bank anglers (such as I) who fish locally without spending much time or money doing it.


In terms of permit holders, only the Bristol Bay fishery has more nonresident than resident salmon permit holders. Permits for "power troll" in SEAK are held mostly by Alaska residents. Though it's unclear how the landings work out between nonresidents vs residents.


https://www.akleg.gov/basis/get_documents.asp?session=29&docid=64890

It's a bit of a stretch to say "Canadians have almost eliminated the commercial harvest of Chinook off the BC coast". Per the PSC Chinook Technical Committee report (TCCHINOOK-22-04.pdf) at least in 2021, the commercial Chinook catch was less than max allowable under the PST but definitely not eliminated. In 2021, the allowable sport and troll Chinook catch for Northern BC was 154K; actual catch was 91K with 65K in troll. For WCVI, the total allowable was 88K; the actual was 76K w 47K in troll. Per this report, season dates and areas were modified to reduce catch of "domestic stocks of concern"... notably WCVI and upper Fraser Chinook.

Canada did come out with News Release for 2022 describing season and area closures to help ORCAs. It was unclear to what extent these season restrictions would reduce overall catch though and what it would mean compared to what was done in 2021. Covid has messed things up from 2020 onward too.

https://www.psc.org/publications/technical-reports/technical-committee-reports/chinook/


Regarding WA coast. Yes, Chinook is clearly the focus of the commercial troll fishery. For sport, Chinook is focus in Area 3,4. As move south and the charter fleet builds, Area 2 sport is both Chinook and coho. Area 1 is clearly coho emphasis. The private boat fleet is mostly Chinook in all areas. For sport, Area 3, 4 probably doesn't need coho, Area 2 probably needs some coho, Area 1 has to have coho to be viable.

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