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#1061520 - 02/12/23 08:05 AM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 13521
Regarding the Quinault and Queets, according to a member of the Quinault Fisheries Committee, "they never heard back from the State." So the Tribe went ahead with its management plan, and they assume the State went ahead with its plan. That the two plans are different may be due to not closing the communications loop.

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#1061521 - 02/12/23 12:57 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Lifter99 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 386
Looks like the State's plan was to close the season completely on the Humptulips and Chehalis seasons. If what Salmo says is true then it is another example of total mismanagement by WDFW.

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#1061523 - 02/12/23 01:56 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: Krijack]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 5074
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
Originally Posted By: Krijack
The tribe is requiring catch cards this year, so it would easy to see what they took this year, but for some reason I doubt we will ever hear the numbers.


WDFW requires punch cards and the punch cards are suppose to be returned but last time I checked, return of punch cards was in the 40% range. So I'd say the QIN return, of punch cards, would be about the same.
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#1061524 - 02/12/23 03:12 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: Krijack]
Tug 3 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/06/14
Posts: 260
Loc: Tumwater
Of course!!! But if I mention it, then .......

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#1061525 - 02/13/23 09:19 AM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
20 Gage Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/15/21
Posts: 313
“ but last time I checked, return of punch cards was in the 40% range. So I'd say the QIN return, of punch cards, would be about the same. “

Hmm, maybe if the the punch cards were given to the tribe’s fishing clients to complete, and mail to the tribal punch card coordinator, you’d be correct.

Now if the tribe requires It’s own Tribal fisher folk to do the punch card shuffle themselves , maybe the punch card returns could be higher...



Edited by 20 Gage (02/13/23 09:20 AM)

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#1061526 - 02/13/23 10:35 AM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: Lifter99]
Rivrguy Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/03/09
Posts: 4394
Loc: Somewhere on the planet,I hope
The total collapse of conversation with the QIN goes back to the early 1980's but revolves around what locals called "gotcha management" for salmon. Which is by definition the comanagers (both) go about their business but if one of the comanagers makes an error the other sees an opening to screw the other.

When it really blew up it was about a salmon forecast way below what showed up so the Nation wanted to update and fish and WDF said nope and put the screws to the tribal fishers. Unless it has changed from the 2000's the QIN / State agreement still has in it NO IN SEASON ADJUSTMENTS to the preseason forecast in the agreement due to this.

Now the Nation remembered this on down the road and when they wanted to target Springers and WDF staffers DA & BE figured what the hell they would not get many, which is correct. Now the Nations real target was sturgeon and it was a slaughter. Management by gotcha!

Steelhead management is no different just what and why actions were taken is lost in the fog of time except for the fact that both sides more or less detest each other but politely.



_________________________
Dazed and confused.............the fog is closing in

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#1061527 - 02/13/23 10:51 AM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Lifter99 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 386
And because of this infighting between the two sides, the recs suffer because of it. Unless I read the QIN website wrong, it looks like the QIN is not netting the Chehalis this winter.

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#1061528 - 02/13/23 10:56 AM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Lifter99 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/01/18
Posts: 386
The QIN website says the last day of netting on the Chehalis was 12/14/22.

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#1061529 - 02/13/23 11:14 AM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Another aspect was in the early 80s when QIN was expected to achieve SH catch and close. WDG set a closure for 9AM and the Nation for Noon. WDG went in and busted netters. Not only did WDG lose in court but the lost the ability of the state (WDF and WDG) to impose conservation closures on any Boldt Case Area Tribe.

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#1061530 - 02/13/23 02:00 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
DrifterWA Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 04/25/00
Posts: 5074
Loc: East of Aberdeen, West of Mont...
02/13/2023

WDFW needs to "pull head out of butt", and its way of doing business.

1. Over all ability's to deal with tribes, for a long time, act like "we big boys on the block". Just a comment on Wynoochee Mtigation. example of nothing getting done for, now over 30 years....

2. Meetings with the public need to get at levels before covid. WDFW now dictates what they want to do......grrrrrr REMEMBER, WDFW works for us!!!!

3. Sturgeon, fishery allow on Columbia River for sports, tribe, and NT. Chehalis River, NO sports fishery, tribe and NT fishery allow, well for sure Tribe, watched pull set net.

4. Smelt, how could a State department allow what used to be a year around fishery to get to a level where its down to "maybe a 1 day sport fishery", but allow commercial "test fisheries". How about pull commercial nets, allow sports to do the "test fishery".

5. Buy back commercial license.....persons that head that program, should be fired, $14 million spent and not much got done, or getting done.
_________________________
"Worse day sport fishing, still better than the best day working"

"I thought growing older, would take longer"

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#1061531 - 02/13/23 02:21 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
And it keeps coming back to the demonstrable fact that people keep supporting them by buying licenses. People (here and other forums) complain but still support them.

We're well trained; they have learned that what they do to the users has no consequences for them.

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#1061532 - 02/14/23 07:05 AM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
fishbreath Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 01/21/00
Posts: 270
Loc: Bellingham,WA
Not completely true Carcassman. I was by definition a die hard fisherman for almost forty years owning 3 drift boats and 3 sleds over the years. I fished eleven months each year with over half of that time having pretty damn good fishing. I've hooked and landed lots of fish over the years with at least 3 Steelhead over 20 and largest at 28.5 pounds on the Quinault. One of my best days was hooking 18 summer runs on the South Fork Nooksack, all catch and release. Now all of that is gone and likely never to return in my life or anybody elses. I've got tons of fishing gear but have not wetting a line nor bought a fishing license in over five years. Other friends have put their rods away too and what has happened during that time? Fishing has gotten worse and now in my neck of the woods the tribe has enough clout they even close the Skagit down for rec's while they net it at certain times of the year. How did that ever happen?

I do not see any "bright" future for rec fisherman or the fish. I have come to the very sad conclusion that the fishing I once loved and enjoyed is done. I have replace my love of fishing with hiking but I sure miss stomping around on the rivers this time of year.

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#1061545 - 02/14/23 08:18 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Bent Metal Offline
Carcass

Registered: 01/09/14
Posts: 2312
Loc: Sky River(WA) Clearwater(Id)
It's a tough pill to swallow and I agree with Fishbreath that it is indeed over. "Over" being the operative word, to some, the tiny bits of opportunity are great and they will downplay it because they weren't around fishing 30+ yrs ago to make an apt comparison. I'm not going to go around touting all the great planter lake trout, warm water, and other misc time killing fishing that so many enjoy, I'll learn to adapt and do less fishing, more traveling to destination [Bleeeeep!]. I don't care how good Idaho, Oregon, Great Lakes , etc....WA State will always be the King, it just so happens he has been dead for awhile.

Yours truly,

Disgruntled Fisherman
_________________________




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#1061553 - 02/16/23 08:00 AM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
This is referred to as shifting baselines. The longer one has been doing something the further back they remember the past. Some here go back to pre-Boldt when "sharing" was 100-0. Given what I hear from my steel heading buddies, somebody beginning today might not find the fishing "poor". Work hard, get a fish or two on. To somebody who never fished streams that have been closed for 20 years, there is no loss to them.

Now, add in managers who have the same experiences; few waters open and modest catches. A little up-tick looks great.

It is the same with hunting. Last house I lived in in Sacramento was built in fields that I pheasant-hunted a few years prior. That was 50 years ago. I doubt anybody living in that neighborhood now even knows that hunting grounds. And, the hunters see no problem in driving a couple hours to hunt not knowing that where their house is now used to be prime hunting area.

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#1061555 - 02/16/23 11:11 AM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
Shifting baseline is a very real phenomenon in my profession as well.

My predecessor used to get paid ~ $3500 for a cataract surgery in his prime. He decided to retire when Medicare cut the fee to ~ $1300. "NOT sustainable" is what he figured, so he sold out to some hungry young buck almost 30 years ago that would do it for the discounted rate.

And now as my career is winding down after 5 presidential administrations that have taken seemingly innocuous "little" bites out of our fees every year, Medicare has continued to erode the value of my services. Even though I deliver a better more elegant faster-healing visually superior cataract operation than 30 years ago, they only pay about ~ $500 for what is often life-changing micro-surgery for the patient.

Some young buck is gonna take over at some point thinking the $500 cataract is "normal"... cuz they haven't ever experienced anything better. If Medicare suddenly decided to throw them a $600 bone to keep their loyalty, they'd be thinking they got a 20% raise, "Hell yeah... sign me up!"

_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1061556 - 02/16/23 11:33 AM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
Ain't that the truth. My (since retired) Internist said that Medicare payments were so bad locally that the docs were going to not treat Medicare patients for a week (emergencies excepted).

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#1061567 - 02/16/23 07:58 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
eyeFISH Offline
Ornamental Rice Bowl

Registered: 11/24/03
Posts: 12766
According to NerdWallet, that "unsustainable" $1300 I started out with in 1994, compounded annually at a measly 3% inflation would be $3155 today.

Medicare now pays me 1/6th of that. Talk about shifting baselines!
_________________________
"Let every angler who loves to fish think what it would mean to him to find the fish were gone." (Zane Grey)

"If you don't kill them, they will spawn." (Carcassman)


The Keen Eye MD
Long Live the Kings!

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#1061568 - 02/16/23 08:08 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
Carcassman Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/21/07
Posts: 7413
Loc: Olema,California,Planet Earth
My Internist also told me that the medical community in WA, at least years ago, was way more efficient at delivering services. So WA started out getting less than other areas. Skill sometimes screws you.

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#1061574 - 02/17/23 03:43 PM Re: Are OP steel headed for ESA listing? [Re: eyeFISH]
cohoangler Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 12/29/99
Posts: 1611
Loc: Vancouver, Washington
FishDoc - I won't quibble about eye surgery or Medicare payments, but your second post in the thread needs some clarification.

You stated that "Treaty right to fish pre-dates and therefor supersedes ESA."

That's not quite right. Tribal treaty rights are the "law of the land" but so is the ESA. The Federal agencies (National Marine Fisheries Service and the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service) have stated many times that their job is to uphold both Tribal Treaty Rights and Federal law (e.g., the ESA). Neither supersedes the other.

This is the operating principle under the U.S. v Oregon and U.S. v Washington Fisheries Management Agreements. The Tribes would certainly prefer to have their Treaty rights supersede other Federal laws (the ESA and beyond), but they are cautious about trying to test that in court. I don't blame them. An adverse ruling might have serious repercussions for Tribal rights nationwide. So the States, the Tribes, and the Feds try to work together to avoid lawsuit where, in most instances, someone wins and someone loses.

The steelhead situation on the OP appears dire, and likely falls squarely within the ESA. Ideally, the Tribes, WDFW, and NMFS can reach agreement on how to proceed if an ESA listing is warranted. That might be possible given the recreational harvest restrictions implemented by WDFW, and low incidence of steelhead mortality in the State-sanctioned commercial fisheries.


Edited by cohoangler (02/17/23 03:43 PM)

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