Here's a press release from the WDFW dated July 13, 2001: (this is from their website)

Sockeye numbers too low for fishing

OLYMPIA – State and tribal fish managers agreed today that a sockeye salmon fishery in Lake Washington will not occur this year because there are not enough returning fish.

Biologists and fish managers with the Washington Department of Fish and Wildlife (WDFW) and the Muckleshoot, Tulalip and Suquamish tribes reached the decision after reviewing the number of adult sockeye which have returned to the lake through the Hiram Chittenden Locks in Ballard.

Scientists agree that at least 350,000 fish must survive to spawn so that future runs are strong enough to support fisheries. As of July 13, the number of fish was below 350,000.

Last year, a returning run of over 400,000 fish provided an early July fishery that drew some 75,000 recreational anglers to the lake over a 10-day period, and also provided a tribal net fishery.


Alot of e-mail energy went into a recent thread on this topic that Big Bob was kind enough to close out. Much of that misunderstanding could have been avoided. Perhaps next time some of the more vocal participants in that thread could get all the facts before stating their strongly held opinions. I don't mean to imply that anyone should change their views but if you're going to have an intelligent discussion, it should be supported by good information. That one wasn't.....

When you live by a reservation, then you have pretty much all the information you need to hold a debate like some of us were doing before it got out of hand, although I'm just gonna say, I can see where they are coming from

They'll still get to net, if they haven't already. If not, then there's no telling how many fish they have taken doing this thing called a "Test Netting." Now that's BS!!!!!

I think the Navy has sonar that could pretty much count the individual fish. Why can't the tribes get something like that, instead of using test netting, which by the way, doesn't count towards their quota.

Cohoangler: For starters, When I first started the thread about the tribes getting to net the Lake Washington Sockeye, the information that you just posted wasn't even out yet. As of the time of my origional posting the Tribes still had every intention of nettinfg that run of fish. When I first posted on this subject, I was simply asking a question, not trying to create a forum or a platform for people to air their "Racist" views. I tried to do my best to insure that things didn't go the "racist" route, unfortunately, I do not have control over what others decided to post. I think that the whole issue of Tribal netting is very touchy, and since the whole debate is actually centered around "Race", it's next to impossible for the subject of "Race" not to get brought up. It was unfortunate that certain people thought it would be cool to start suggesting things like the genocide of the Native Americans. I dont' agree with that view point, and it's too bad that people don't know what thoughts are acceptable in a public forum, and which thoughts should remain private.... That being said, I'm glad that the Tribes don't get to net the Sockeye.

BAN ALL NETS.
Good luck,
STRIKE ZONE

Coho angler you are either a tribal member, work for the tribes or work for the state who basically works for the tribes. I live very close to a reservation. I have lots of native americans who are friends, They do not hold any thing against me for my opinions towards there practices. They don't like what I have to say alot of the times, but that is my opinion. And if you think that they have not netted any sockeye out of the lake you are high as a mother****er, How stoned are you?????
They not only do test nettings, but they will still net a few thousand fish for there so called "rite of passage" stuff or for there ceremonial use. at a buck a pound it does not seem so ceremonial to me.
Obviously you have never seen some of the waste that goes on when they are gillnetting. Well e-mail me in a month or so and I will show you first hand.
Peace Superfly

If this debate is going to continue, you might as well have the facts. Some number of fish equalling less than 3000 will be/have been netted from the ship canal for the tribal ceremonial/substance fisheries. This information was obtained from the Muckleshoot tribe. The Muckleshoots took around 800 of the 1000 they were allocated and the 2 other tribes with treaty rights each get up to 1000 as well. What I have been told is that these fish get distributed to tribal members. I do not know if any were sold, I have had nobody give me any reason to believe that they were. Except for biological study, there is no reason to conduct a test fishery for Sockeye as the counts through the locks are the agreed method of management.

Superfly,
You forgot to add personal relations director
to your epitaph..

How many fish the Tribe get to have, or where they wind up is inmaterial. The fact they they get to net ANY is what bothers me. These treaties are outdated and obsolete. They need to be re-negotiated. If the Constitution of the United States can be re-interpreted over and over, then so can the Treaties. The Tribes know this, and so should you. When these Treaties were first drafted, the fish runs were much more abundant, not so anymore. It's time to take another look at what we ar allowing the Tribes to get away with, and to start electing Congressmen with the Balls to address this issue.

I will try not to sound defensive however....

Superfly is incorrect. I'm not a tribal member, I do not work for the tribes, nor do I work for any state. In fact, whom I work for is irrelevant. I happen to be an avid angler (like alot of folks on this BB) from Vancouver, WA. I simply posted the press release from the WDFW. I also took the opportunity to point out that the civility of the discourse on this issue had decreased considerably. And with the right information, it could have been avoided.

But ZoZo is quite correct in pointing out that this information was unavailable when he first posted his question; and that he is certainly not responsible for posts other than his own.

I believe we can and should continue to debate the issues while also expressing our own views on various subjects, regardless of how strongly we hold those opinions. However, without good information on exactly what is happening, debates can turn into brawls. Big Bob was right to call a time-out. We can all do better. I'm sure Big Bob agrees and expects us to treat his BB with a bit more respect.

Cohoangler: I don't think that anyone here is doing anything to intentionally disrespect this BB. I think that the subject of Tribal Netting is very volital at best, and sometimes, a subject as touchy as this can bring out the worst in people. That being said, if you don't agree with the statements that have been made regarding Tribal Greed and waste, then please, E-mail me (I believe that Superfly also made this offer) and accept my offer to take you fishing on the Skokomish River this fall. Or, better yet, Allow me to take you to Hoodsport when the Chum are in. I promise that you will come away with a whole new appreciation of just how badly the Tribes are abusing their "Treaty Rights". I'm not kidding, get a hold of me and I will take you out so that you can see first hand just why we are all so passionate when it comes to our distaste for Tribal harvest practices.E-mail me.

Hi Coho,

One practice that I personally witnessed on Hood Canal that was disturbing was that many of the Skokomish tribal members were netting Chum salmon. They would let the dead bucks fall to the bottom, not even bothering to boat them, just untangle them from there nets and then let them fall. All hens were immediately stripped of their eggs and then tossed overboard, wasting all of the meat. The reason that they only wanted to save the eggs was because that was where all of the money was. These eggs were being sold to the asian market. I know because I helped them handle part of the transaction as a business banker. It personally made me sick, but I can't choose my client's lines of work.

The good news is that this year, buyers will be required to purchase the carcass as well as the eggs. If they can't account for the carcass/egg match up, they face fines and prosecution.

I have no problem with the tribes fishing for subsistence purposes, even for their extended families, but traditionally salmon and shellfish were not a large part of their trade between tribes. I feel that if they wish to fish commercially that they get a license like all of the other commercial fishers.

I have talked with many tribal members from the Skok, Nisqually, Chehalis, and Squaxin tribes as a part of business. Mostly fishermen, and one thing that I ask them about is species targeted. They target the species that bring them the most money with the least amount of effort. There are many divers who go after goeducks, and they quite openly state that they sort underwater. This leads to a lot of wastage, as once a goeduck is dug up it becomes vulnerable to predation unless replanted. Few say that they replant.

The unfortunate part of it is that I can't report the issue because of client confidentiality. It sucks.

Those are some of the facts as I have seen them firsthand, or been told firsthand by those who commit these offenses.

Andy

Dogfish,

I sure hope this is true.

I also heard that there is now a federal agent that is being placed in forks, permanently this summer, to monitor over netting, netting outside permitted times, etc. I heard that fines will be administered, and if there are too many violations, a possible loss of netting rights. The agent will also be present during the winter steelhead netting season.

If there wasn't illegal activity going on, the federal government, wouldn't find it necessary to place an agent to montior activities.

Several contributors to this thread (Superfly, Dogfish) have offered to show me the problems with Tribal netting at Hoodsport and elsewhere. Although I appreciate their generous offer, I am unable to take them up on it. Not because I’m not interested but life at home keeps me busier than I’d like to be. As I write this post, my eight-month-old is pulling at my leg and my two-year old is trying to jam a crayon into my zip drive. My weekends are spent trying to give my stay-at-home wife a break from the kids. In fact, the only time I get a chance to fish is between 5:00am and 8:00am on Saturday mornings before they get up. So, a trip to Hoodsport isn’t possible.

That’s not to say that I don’t believe what you’ve seen isn’t happening. I believe it is. I will agree that, at times, the Tribes take more salmon than they should and they waste a lot of fish, particularly if they’re only after the eggs. This is unacceptable and seeing lots of dead fish scattered across the river contributes to the hard feelings and strong opinions expressed on this BB.

However, our different experiences contribute to our different opinions. Here’s what I deal with every day - BPA eliminates spill for their hydropower projects on the Lower Snake River and mainstem Columbia River this summer and possibly the fall. The central Washington PUD’s eliminate spill on the Mid-Columbia hydropower projects thereby sending all the fish through the turbines. Puget Sound Energy (PSE) runs their turbines full bore on the Baker River project all spring and summer thereby emptying the reservoir. When they ran out of water, the Baker River and half the Skagit River went dry. In each of these instances, salmon were, and are, being killed by the millions. Millions! And for what? So they can send power to California and make hundreds of millions of dollars. So someone in Malibu can heat their hot tub and the CEO of PSE can buy another yacht. Where is the outrage?

The tribal folks, many of whom live below the poverty line, fish to supplement their income. Although I’d like to think they use the money for heating bills and food, I suspect too much of it goes into less noble expenses like a few cases of beer. Be that as it may, how many of them are buying yachts or big houses on Lake Washington? Not many. The collective decisions by the power companies to maximize their profits will kill more salmon in a week than the tribes kill all year.

Some folks see the Indians netting hundreds and perhaps thousands of salmon and get upset and enraged. Their reaction is clearly justified and appropriate. However, I see power companies getting rich, power being wasted, and our salmon dying by the millions and millions. That gets me quite upset. Perhaps I’ve gotten too jaded but after dealing with power companies all day long, hearing about the tribes netting a few thousand salmon doesn’t seem quite so bad.......

We see different things and have different opinions. That's okay. I'm done for this thread. Good luck on the water, hope the summer runs have been hitting.

Coho,

I hear what you're saying and understand what you are trying get across. My issue is that there is not a dam on every river, but there are nets on most. I would like to see all players, tribes, sports, commercial, and power companies, play the game from the same rule book. That is not currently the case.

If you look at the folks who generally contribute the least amount for what they take, the tribes top the list. There are some tribes who do have hatchery programs, and I support them in their efforts, but entitlements are something that should be done away with. We get half of the fish, if that, but we pay more than half of the bill.

Most of the folks would probably agree that the tribes need to stop playing the victim. They now have the scales tipped towards them, what with Bolt and subsequent rulings, and the fact that our government pays a substantial amount to their sovriegn nations, and that our dollars go to pay for their attorneys. We just want the same playing field.

As for the power companies, they have to make business decisions that benefit their shareholders, and that keep them out of trouble with the Federal goverment, but they also contribute a lot to restoration of salmon runs, and associated programs. Power is a necessary evil, and hydro power is cheap. Do they need to improve their practices, sure they do. All parties do.

I feel your pain on the anklebiter issue, too. Luckily for you it won't be too long until you can get them out fishing with you. My five year old has caught salmon, and steelhead. That is something that we should all be focused on. The legacy we leave for our kids. Hopefully we get there together.

Take care, Andy

[ 07-23-2001: Message edited by: Dogfish ]

Wow! Big Ditto on what Andy had to say! I couldn't have put it any better myself. For the record: I too understand your plight with the whole family thing. I have three daughters at home, ages 6, 3, & 1-1/2. Boy, aren't they a handfull/committment. That being said, I still manage to find the time to fish, (often at the expense of my wife)Though not nearly as often as I'd like.... I am also familiar with the whole "Crayon in the zip drive" thing. Good luck with the fishing/Fathering.