Well guys, no more second-guessing what the game laws are anymore! After reading all the different opinions that were given to my thread "Should fishing guides be allowed to hook your limits?" the need was shown to give us the real answers about these gray and ambiguous fishing rules. Thanks to the Chief of Enforcement, Bruce Bjork, we now have a better understanding of some uncertain and unclear fishing regulation.

Basically, 5 specific questions were asked for legal interruptions. The 5 questions and the answers from the Chief of Enforcements (Bruce Bjork) are listed below. I am sure that both sport fishermen and fishing guides will now think twice about what is or isn't legal to do when fishing in freshwater. Mr. Bjork also stated this "Thank you for your letter dated July 2, 200 1. I appreciate the opportunity to respond to your questions about our fishing regulations. The answers are based on the Revised Code of Washington (RCW) Title 77, Department rules, and the Washington Administrative Code (WAC) Chapters 220 and 232. Bear in mind that our Enforcement Officers have some discretion in how they handle violations. Therefore, no absolute answers can be given to some of your questions. However, I have attempted to provide you with reasonable answers based on your specific scenarios. Other situations may be handled differently" It may be a good idea for you to make a copy of his replies to the 5 questions. Someday, It may save you money in court!

What do you guys think about his answers?

Question 1) Is it legal for a licensed freshwater sport-fishing guide to fish for, or hook fish for his clients on his personal fishing rod so that his client can "land the fish"? Could both the client and the guide be citied if the act was illegal, or would just one party be citied? If the act were an illegal one, what would the maximum fine or penalty be for such an offense?

Answer: This may or may not be a violation. At the time the client takes the guide's pole, if the client has another line in the water, that would definitely violate WAC 220.56.115(l) for food fish or WAC 232.12.147(l) for garnefish, which generally limit each fisher to one line (pole). Yes, both could be cited, the client under RCW 77.15.380 (I) b, Unlawful Recreational Fishing - 2nd Degree, for using more than one line, and the guide for RCW 9A.76.090(l), Rendering Criminal Assistance - 3rd Degree. Both violations are misdemeanors, and therefore the maximum penalty is a $1000 fine, and 90 days in jail. However, bail amounts for these violations are usually $100 and: $250 respectively. If these individuals paid this bail amount to the court within 15 days, they would not have to appear. The Department considers this the equivalent of a guilty plea. If the client and the guide periodically trade gear and neither has caught a limit, there would be no violation"

Question 2) Your pamphlet states "You May Not: Fish with a rod not under your immediate control". Does that mean that by handing your fishing rod off to someone else, after you have hooked a fish, that your rod is no longer under "your immediate control" and that the person who is the now "holding the rod" is one in the "immediate control"? Or does it mean something completely different? Is it referring to a certain act, or i.e. the distance to be away from your rod, or does it refer to the possession of, or custody of the rod? As examples, if 5 persons were all fishing in a 20-foot guide boat, and all five
persons had fishing rods in the water, how would this rule apply, would it apply only to the person who is holding the rod, or could that person hand his rod off to another person who also was fishing with a rod? If two (2) fishermen were both fishing, and both parties had their fishing rods with their lines in the water, could they let someone else pick up their rod and bring in their fish? When does the term "immediate control" take place in a freshwater fishery and for how long is your fishing rod under "immediate control"? Once a fish is "hooked" by one person can that person legally release his "control" to another person in a freshwater fishery?

Question 3) Depending on what your interpretation is on question 2, does that also mean that the same interpretation applies to all licensed fresh water sport fishermen?


Answers to questions 2&3: "Response to Questions 2 and 3: The major part of these questions deal with using a second pole and relate back to question 1. WAC 220.56.115(3) for foodfish, and WAC 232.12.147(l) for gamefish require a fisher to keep his angling gear under his immediate control. The intent of these rules is to keep fishers close enough to their gear so that they can quickly notice when they have a fish on, and can pick up their pole and play the fish. Also, if a fisher is too far from his gear, it may appear that someone else is fishing with multiple lines. There is no specific maximum distance from pole to fisher; it depends on the situation. The fisher could be cited under RCW77.15.380 (1) b, Unlawful Recreational Fishing-2nd Degree, usually a $100 bail.

Question 4) Can a freshwater sport-fishing guide, or his clients, or any group of sport fishermen be allowed to continue fishing in a boat on a fresh water river until "the entire boat" achieves it's "full limits" for all their clients? As example, It is common practice for a fish guide, and a party of 4 fishermen (clients) to keep fishing with all 5 fishing rods, even those 2 of the clients may have already landed there limits, with the goal of filling out limits for all 4 clients. If this is not legal, is everyone in the boat participating in a commission of a violation of the fishing laws? Would both the guide and the client(s) get citied? Many people are under the belief that just because the saltwater charters boat are legally allowed to fish until the "boat" gets its full limits for everyone, that its also legal to do the same in a freshwater guides boat fishery. If the act were illegal, what would the maximum fine or penalty be for such an offense?

Answer: This also refers back to question 1. No, in general, the common practice that you describe is unlawful in freshwater. A new WAC 220.56.115(4), effective May 1, 2001, made it lawful to take boat limits for foodfish and shellfish only in those areas where a saltwater license is valid. This could include a few freshwater areas, like the mouth of the Columbia River, where either a Freshwater or Saltwater fishing license is valid. In all other freshwater areas and whenever fishing for gamefish, this practice is unlawful. Similarly to the question I response, both guide and clients could be cited, depending on -the circumstances.

Question 5) Finally, is it illegal for a license-fishing guide to allow others parties in his boat to participate in, or attempt to catch more then their personal daily bag legal limit of fish, or someone else's daily bag limit of fish? If the act is illegal, what is the maximum fine or penalty?

Answer: Yes, a licensed fishing guide or any boat owner or operator could be charged with a violation of RCW9A.76.090 (l), Rendering Criminal Assistance - 3rd Degree if he facilitates the violation of a law in RCW Title 77 by any fisher on that boat. The severity of the penalty would probably depend on the severity of the RCW Title 77 violations".

Well, guys what do you think, any surprises?


Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Thanks for the follow-up. There is still the mention of that "d" word, discretion, so it sounds like it is better to be safe than sorry. Since this is their interpretation it would be nice to know if preferrence points could be granted for people who report fishing violations, not just hunting violations. I'll check on that. Moose hunt, here I come!

One thing that wasn't touched on was fishing with minors and the assistance that is given to them. I take my 5 year old out all the time and I make sure that he has a quality time, mostly at my expense. What can I do, and more importantly, not to to help my little guy catch fish?

Thanks again for your research. Andy

Cowlitz - Thanks for the information and all the effort that it takes to get it.

I don't mean to be critical but I found the answers clearer than the questions. Mr. Bjork's responses were focused on the intent of the regulations rather than a specific yes/no answer to a complex question/situation. To me that indicates there's considerable flexibility in some of the regs. That's encouraging. Overall, I didn't see any surprises. I was discussing the "boat limit" issue with a friend this morning and Mr. Bjork's answer is clear. It's okay in saltwater (that is, where a saltwater license is valid) but not in freshwater. But I'm still left wondering why is that? Seems to me that if you've reached your two-fish limit you should be done fishing, regardless of whether you're in salt or freshwater. But that's not the case......

Cohoangler,

Thanks for the reply!

My questions were deliberately done in that fashion to get WDFW to give us an answer that we can understand and take to the courts! As you can see, WDFW has cleverly already side-stepped the issue about handing off a rod to somebody else that doesn't have a line in the water (second question) i.e. "If 2 fishermen were both fishing, and both parties had their fishing rods with their lines in the water, could "they let" "someone else" (that means neither of them) pick up their rod in bring in the fish. This is a pretty simple question, and deserves a simple answer! It doesn't matter if there were 20 fishermen with their rods and lines in the water fishing. The point was, could you let someone else bring in a fish that was hooked on your rod? I did not say that the "other" person was also fishing, or had a line in the water. I just asked, could they hand off a FISH that THAT WAS HOOKED on YOUR ROD TO SOMEONE ELSE?

No real answer yet to that part of the question.

There are more questionable answers in WDFW reply. Has anybody else seen them yet?

Come on Andy, you got an eye for this kind of stuff, what else do you see?

Cowlitzfisherman,

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

I don't get why you're making such a big deal out of such a small, small issue. Who cares if an experienced guide helps a person with no fishing experience catch a fish? If I was visiting people who wanted to take me steelhead fishing, and if I had very little fishing experience, my main goal would be to play a fish. After all, when it comes to fishing, that's the funnest part. Someone who has little or no fishing experience would most likely be wasting their time out with a guide if the guide couldn't hook a fish for them. Also, what about disabled people? I find it rediculous that you're making such a big deal of this when there are much more important issues we could be focusing on.

Hi Jacob,

It is certainly easier to ***** about something than to come up with a solution. Some of us are trying to clarify issues that will benefit many. It may seem small, until YOU get that ticket for $100-250.

Take care, Andy

Jacobf

You are missing the point! Washington Fish Guides are no different then any other Washington sport fishermen. The only different is that they are making a business out of fishing! The guides have to go by the same laws and regulations that you and I do, so don't you think that you would want to know if you are breaking the Washington game laws? You ask, "Who cares if an experienced guide helps a person with no fishing experience catch a fish? You need to ask WDFW that question! Violating the game codes don't address if the issue of you having little or no fishing experiences" It's the guy that doesn't have the "experience" who will really benefit from this posting. Do you really think that WDFW gives a dam if you are from out of state, or not experience fishermen? Their laws apply to everyone who is fishing in the waters of Washington State. You may find it "ridiculous" but think of the hundreds of fishermen that get sited every year because no one had the balls to address this issue before.

All this thread does is to attempt to educate YOU, and others about the Washington State fish & game laws. If you don't like what you read, then go out and do your thing, but don't come back crying that WDFW is picking on you when you get cited because YOU THINK that YOU were in the right! Why put yourself or anyone else at risk because you think that it's ok to show a client or somebody else a 'good time"? You asked "What about disabled people?" If you had taken the time to read the rules, the answer is simple! To assist disabled fishermen, the disabled fishermen must first hold a special issued "Designated Harvest Card". Then and only then, can you assist him in their fishing efforts?


Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

I think I got it. You can help (and/or hands on instruct) someone else if you take your line out of the water first. However, you can't take control of the persons pole that you're helping if you've already caught your limit (freshwater).

The real world is just a few hours from Wally-World.

Ok, here is a situation: Springer fishing at the Wind, I have my limit, but my buddy has one to go. Strictly speaking (not opinions, legalities) why can't I continue to fish for other species. Lots of other things are open at the time (bass, NPMs,walleye) and they are all known to strike a trolled plug.

Obviously I got popped this spring for not knowing the regs, but I really think this is a valid argument. I bought a fishing licence, not a Spring chinook licence, right???

Hi Bellinghamster,

Your best argument in that situation would have been to have a steelhead, a walleye, or some other species already in the boat. If you were really intent on catching some other species, you should have switched to a bottom walking worm rig or something else that would have strengthened your case. Not the lure of the day for the primary species being targeted by the majority.

I don't mean to upset you, but your argument seems about as plausible as me saying that I heard that large rainbow trout in Lake Washington will hit a single red hook on a short leader behind flasher off of a downrigger at 45' in July. I can understand why you got the ticket. I am glad that you now understand the regs better.

Take care, Andy

Cohoangler,
All you have to do to see why its legal for charter boats to limit the boat in saltwater,is look at the associations they belong to.How much time and money they spend lobbying for their members.Its the same with gill netters.Money talks.Especially if you have the people involved to push an issue to benefit your cause.

A little more information on the "boat limit" issue. That rule was actually only changed recently. In spite of the fact that the standard practice on charter boats was to continue fishing until there were enough fish aboard to provide a limit for everyone, it was not actually legal to do so. In spite of this the practice was routinely ignored by WDF and, more recently, WDFW. The change in the regulation came about through heavy lobbying by charter boat and associated interests, and was only written into law in the current regulation cycle

Reading Mr. Bjork's answers, it is clear to me that if a guide hooks a fish he can hand that rod off to a client AFTER the client reels in his line out of the water first. That's how it is now legally accetped in Oregon. It's also clear that when any angler tags out his limit of salmon and/or steelhead (which is to be done immediately after bonking a fish) they have to put their rod down and quit fishing for anything. If you want to help your friend get his springer limit after you have gotten your limit by "fishing for bass or whatever" you will be illegal. If you are intent on fishing for the other species (ya, right) then only bonk one salmon or steelhead and fish with more proper gear for the other fish! Not intentionally try to sidestep the intent of the law while continuing to target salmon after tagging your limit. Technically this would apply to young children also. If Dad has tagged his limit he cannot legally help a child land another fish by essentially controlling the rod - although I bet many gammies would not cite Dad, by using his discretion. The correct way to do this if Dad just can't release fish after catching one salmon or steelhead is for him to give verbal instruction while holding onto a thin rope tied around the reel seat in case a rare child hooked salmon or steelhead pulls the rod out of the child's hands, so you won't lose a rod. In my opinion, any dad or mom that keeps a small child out long enough to help take home extra limits of fish by having the kid essentially be an extra organic rod holder and tag slots (which is often the case), is not properly parenting in this instance. Make the fishing experience enjoyable for young children by not keeping them out too long - and teaching them the value of conservation by not being a slob hog in taking a bunch of salmon/steelhead home (during what will be a very long day to most kids). ... My $0.02 worth.

RT

[ 07-29-2001: Message edited by: RT 1 ]

RT,
That's the same way that I read Mr. Bjork's answer to my questions. It was also made clear to me, that you may hand off as many fish as you want to, provided that the person that you hand your fish off to is not fishing with a line in the water at the time you hand it off to him. It also means that YOU could not do that if YOU had already caught your limits of adult salmon or steelhead. Steel head are still a little gray issue here, because the game laws only address the issue that you must stop fishing when you get your limit of adult salmon (not steel head). I guess that the Officer could make the argument, that a steelhead is technically classified as a "salmonoid", so you must stop fishing for steelhead if you have your limit of salmon.

I think that the biggest "shocker" comes from Mr. Bjork's answer about the fact that "everybody" in the boat could possibly get cited under RCW 9A.76.090 (1) (Rendering Criminal Assistance). I know if I was still guiding, I would think twice now about letting a full boat full CEO's get cited for allowing someone in my boat to hand off his rod to another person, while that "other person" still had his line in the water. I know it wouldn't take to long before that guide name had gotten out, and was blacked balled by the guys that really spend the big bucks for a guided fishing trip.

One other thing that bothers me a little about Mr. Bjork's reply was the statement " Bear in mind that our Enforcement Officers have some discretion in how they handle violations". What I believe he is saying is that an officer can make a choice on the enforcement of a violation. That does not mean that if some else pushes the issue in the field, that the Game Warden doesn't have to cite the person who is being accused of commenting a game violation. It is my understanding that the game officers are bound under law the same way as peace officers are. RCW 77.12.055 (Enforcement authority of fish and wildlife officers), (2) states, " Fish and wildlife officers are peace officers." To me, that would means that go the same rules, unless the law says otherwise.

(1) Fish and wildlife officers and ex officio fish and wildlife officers shall enforce this title, rules of the department, and other statutes as prescribed by the legislature. However, when acting within the scope of these duties and when an offense occurs in the presence of the fish and wildlife officer who is not an ex officio fish and wildlife officer, the fish and wildlife officer may (key word is "may") enforce all criminal laws of the state. The fish and wildlife officer must have successfully completed the basic law enforcement academy course sponsored by the criminal justice training commission, or a course approved by the department and the criminal justice training commission and provided by the department or the criminal justice training commission, prior to enforcing the criminal laws of the state.

I wonder Just, which game laws are "ticketed ones" and which game laws violations that earn you a trip to jail, with all your equipment being confiscated? Is it only a Felony? Or is it for a first-degree or second-degree violation?

Does anyone out there know the answer?

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Cowtitz and RT that seems to be a reasonable intrepretation, but Mr Bjork started off his repsonse with these words:

"This may or may not be a violation. At the time the client takes the guide's pole, if the client has another line in the water, that would definitely violate WAC 220.56.115(l) for food fish or WAC 232.12.147(l) for garnefish, which generally limit each fisher to one line (pole). " Empahsis on this may or may not be a violation

He did not address the issue, which here in washington is the common practice, of switching rods. If the guide hooks a fish and then at the same time he hands his rod to the client the client either sets his rod down or hands it to the guide - is the client fishing with one rod??
he now only has one rod and the guide has one rod..

Hi RT,

Couldn't agree with you more on the kids issue. The longest my son and I go out for is about an hour or two. The only exception being Sockeye fishing on Lake Washington last year, but then he had his Papa Don there to play with. I always make sure that he gets to catch some fish, and he is a quick study. I can't tell you though how many fish I had bouncing on my rod that got off because I spent the time with him coaching him on his own fish.

Andy

In my boat, all fishers must reel in when a fish is hooked. We pull plugs and leaving the others out only promises the best multiline knot a steelhead is capable of. The bait pitchers on the cowlitz seem to do this most times unless they are fishing with aircraft cable and are able to horse the fish straight in. I also pass the rod with the fish off to the person with the least fish so as to keep the bags even as long as possible. It also tends to keep everyone happier. I think we all know the intent of the law and also see every trip the jerks who try to step around it. Like the bankies at blue creek that walk unrecorded fish to the car and come back in 20 minutes for another limit. I would LOVE to have a fish cop pull up next to my boat and check for fish and tags once in a while on the cowlitz. I get checked four out of five times I go over in Idaho and see far fewer scumbags breaking the law because of it.

(crash bang boom)
my soap box just broke