My post in his thread on ifish:

Welcome to the growing world of NW fishing websites Byron [Edit: Emmette O'Connell]. I am so glad to see an Indian fisheries official join in this informative venue!

I am quite sure you are aware of the controversies of the Indian netting of fish runs, particularly in the Columbia River and the rivers of the Oly Pen. I am glad to see an upper management person involved in one of the better managed tribal fisheries up there willing to post on a site of sportfishers.

To that end, allow me first to quote you:



If that quoted plan is working appropriately, then it must be properly adhering to the Judge Boldt decision to split fish deemed harvestable evenly between Indian and non-Indian fishers. Can you tell the thousands of fishers that read here what is entailed in seeing that this Federal Court review mandate is adhered to?

Do you have or will you obtain information as to why is it so common to hear and read wittnessed reports of other Oly Pen tribal gillnet fisheries taking well over their mandated 50% share of the fish runs? How are these other tribal fisheries observed and supervised by tribal and non-tribal game enforcement agencies to ensure compliance with the 50/50 even split of fish mandated? Is it working? Or are the Indian fisheries taking more than their legally mandated share?

Can you also address the many eyewittness complaints of very wasteful Indian gillnet fisheries on many Hood's Canal rivers where eggs are taken out of the female fish and their carcasses and male carcasses are just piled up on the banks to rot (particularly the chum runs)?

Will you address the many credible complaints by Washington sportfishers that Indian gillnetters treat them abusively, including coming right into holes the sportsfishermen are already rightfully fishing in and spread their nets all the way across the river in that fishing hole. Then they tell the sporties to leave. I believe it's the law to not strech the nets all the way across the entire width of the river. I have taken picture's of Indian nets and netters doing this with Superfly's camera. For his safety I won't reveal what river this occured on late this summer/early fall. It is more evidense that has been complied via pictures and reports others have taken.

Thanks for your patience 'under fire', and your willingness to address these issues; that you may not have anything to do with directly. Your answers, and mentioning these things to other tribe's fishing managers, could go a long way toward healing a growing groundswell of sportfisher upheaval and rebellion concerning the illegal and unethical activites going on.

Steve Hanson

[ 10-04-2001: Message edited by: RT 1 ]

First off, I need to apologize, my name's Emmett O'Connell, I am the Hood Canal/SJD info officer with the Northwest Indian Fisheries Commission. I posted Byron's letter here because we wanted to get the word out before the Oct. 16 opening and I knew this would be a great place, since a lot of anglers surf here.

I can address the stripping issue right now, the other questions, can you give me a call? I can call your right back to save you on long distance, and we can go over all your quesitons. I'm at 360-297-6546. If anyone else has any questions on tribal fisheries, I can either answer them for you or find out for you.

On stripping: What must be kept in mind are the market forces that draw tribal fisherman to strip eggs from salmon carcasses. When fish buyers pay only a fraction for fish meat compared to what they pay for eggs it leaves little to wonder about why tribal fisherman would leave carcasses in exchange for their eggs. Currently, buyers are paying only up to 40 cents a pound for any type of salmon, but up to 5 dollars a pound for eggs. Salmon eggs are particularly desirable in the caviar market for their naturally occurring oils, large size and ability to retain their shape as an attractive market product.

Unfortunately, despite the tribes’ desire to donate excess salmon carcasses to food banks and other worthy causes, doing so is often beyond their resources. While they have donated carcasses to the public and to food banks and shelters locally, wider distribution is a much more difficult task. There is a high cost to process and keep fish fresh for human consumption.

If you have any suggestions for other sources we might tap to dispose of salmon, we would be more than happy to hear them. We always welcome suggestions that make tribal fisheries more effective.

Lastly, it is illegal under tribal regulations to dispose of a salmon carcass without recording that catch. Dumping in areas and in amounts that might cause pollution is also prohibited. This year, instead of being left on stream banks, many of the carcasses are being dumped out in the Hood Canal.

Tribes take their responsibility to regulate fisheries very seriously and fishing violations are not condoned. Tribal fisherman who violate regulations appear in tribal courts, where they face stiff fines, loss of fishing privileges and even jail time.

It sounds to me like you are saying it is O.K. to strip eggs and leave carcasses because salmon are only worth 40 cents a pound.Thats some serious greed going on.At 40cents if they get 100 pounds thats $40.I know thats a half days wages for a lot of people.A whole days wages for lots more.From what I hear 100 pounds is not close to the actually daily harvest.

Its not realy a waste to throw the dead fish on the banks, beter there than selling to the fish markets.

Our rivers lack the nutrients of dead fish now due to overharvest. These fish are mostly hatchery fish anyways so if they dont spawn than good and if they end up gutted and thrown on the river banks than the rivers win anyways.

More dead fish in our rivers and beaches = more wild smolt.

Go to alaska on a Humpie year and you will see what I mean. two feet deep of dead humpies on all the river banks and beaches near river mouths. When is the last time you saw that down here. that is what it is suposed to be like.

So even if it seems like the indians are doing the wrong thing really they are helping wild fish production out even if it seems wrong.

Ok... one question is: In the Elliot Bay fishery why did the indians get to harvest over 9000 and only 2400 were sport caught?

second... stripping salmon of their eggs is BS. I saw it on the skok this year. A 20-25 lbs chrome King had it's belly cut open. Talk about a waste..

Hey everyone, lets keep this thread a nice and informitive Q and A one because with these guys joining in on our disscussions we can get alot accomplished together. I welcome you guys here and think it is great that you are willing to take the time to address some of these issues.
If everyone stays civil this can be the start to the healing process that has Had the tribes and the sportsmen at each others throats for years. It will not happen overnight , but at least this will help us get started off of the right foot. I hope you guys have a thick skin because there will be people who will lash out at you and display there anger over this board because of things they have seen. But I applaud you for taking the chance and getting it started. I would love to sit down over lunch or coffee sometime and here what the future holds for all of us. Until then take care and thanks.
Peace Superfly

treatyfishery,

This simply goes without saying that the stripping of eggs and wasting the remainder is wrong. Selling eggs to the Far East is not a part of indian 'heritage'. Quite the opposite. They used every bit of the fish - nothing was wasted out of respect for the fish. Now greed runs your harvest tactics and 98% of the fish is wasted. What a joke.

Steve

Good post Joe (Superfly). I would love to join you in buying Mr. O'Connell lunch and discuss some of these issues in a civil and productive manner (hope you don't mind me inviting myself along too ). My questions here were hard questions, and contained accusations of wrong doing on the part of tribal fishers. It was criticized as being confrontational by Marty M. on the same thead on ifish. If it was taken that way accept my appology. Also know that we have on both fishing websites been addressing wrong doings by sportfishers too (snagging and litering), just as aggressively as wrong doings by some Indian fishers. My questions were posted because a representative of NW Washington Indian fisheries is here to communicate. I would still like to get the answers to how the gillnetting is monitored and harvest numbers recorded; and how those counts compare to sportfish harvest. That is the big question, and I do not see it as being confrontational. In fact, it is information that should be our right to know, given that we pay for most of the fish harvested and are 50% of the Treaty and Fed. Court equation. It needs and deserves answering for the future prospects of the two sides of that issue to get along better! Just as with the issue of unlawful sportfisher actions getting proper resolution suggestions here, so too would it be good for information and solution suggestions to come from all sides of the Treaty fishing matter; to come to a healthier fishing community of all factions involved.

Mr. O'Connell, I hope you will reconsider answering at least the main question above for us here. And also hope you will accept having lunch with Joe and I - or fishng with us and have a good healthy discussion and a fun time while we are at it . If felt appropriate by both parties, I will have the communication involved published in STS magazine (where I am a columnist), which reaches the region's sportfishing community. You can e-mail either of us via the icon at the top of the post boxes. BTW, my AOL addy there will soon be canceled and my current newer addy is reeltruth1@home.com

Thanks so much for your time and consideration. Take care. - Steve

[ 10-04-2001: Message edited by: RT 1 ]

Think that Rich has the right idea. Realistically we are not going to change the fact that egging is going to occur, but I'd rather see the carcasses in the upper portion of the rivers that on the side of the road in the ditch .

Tight lines

Kevin

Treatyfishery - Welcome to the BB. You're prescence is certainly welcome, as are your views on the various issues. Too often we anglers complain about tribal fishery issues without the benefit of hearing the tribal side of the story. I'm not implying that you can speak for all tribal fisheries or are an expert all such subjects. But a different viewpoint from within your area of jurisdiction (NWIFC) would help balance some of the vitriolic diatribe that somethings pervades our discussions. But be aware, you may need a "thick hide" to withstand the flack.

As for the egging issue, it is not, in my view, wrong for the tribes to be doing this for two reasons. One, every fish taken counts against their alloted quota. So taking just the eggs doesn't result in taking of additional fish above their limit. Two, discarding the carcasses back into the river adds marine dervied nutrients to the river system. This is exactly as nature intends. This is far better than removing the entire fish from the watershed, as I always do in those fortunate instances where I can actually hook and land one.

Discarding salmon back into the river is never "pollution", but it is a source of important nutrients for future generations of Pacific salmon. I would also add that if the tribe is dumping dead fish into the Hood Canal, they might consider ending this practice. Leaving the carcasses in the river is a much better alternative, at least from the fish's point of view.

Good fishing <@)(((><

Cohoangler,

The main problem with "egging" in my view, is the fish NOT counting against the quota. Aren't quotas reached through reported sales to licensed fish buyers? How often are these fish not reported, and what's the motivation for them to be reported?

[ 10-04-2001: Message edited by: 4Salt ]

wow!!!! that realy opens my eyes I am a huge suporter of an indians right to fish.I have defended them on this web site many times and Im shure all indians dont have the same view point. I was raised you eat what you kill!!!!! and i think that if this is going on it it moraly and ethecly rong. I am sorry to be negative i think it is in our best intrest to work with them and viseversa.

Good point. If those egged fish don't count against their quota, then it's wrong. As I understand it, the tribes have limits and quotas that are set by their fishery management authorities. Presumably these limits are based on the best scientific information available. If these egged fish are above and beyond what they are authorized to take, it appears to me that they are simply poaching. That is wrong, no matter who is doing it.

Perhaps Treatyfishery can answer the question - Do "egged" fish count against the tribal quota?

If so, how do the fish get counted if the official counts are the number of fish sold to licensed dealers? If they don't count against the quota, how is this practice legal?

Coho angler,

your question was answered in the original post by treatyfishery.

"

On stripping: What must be kept in mind are the market forces that draw tribal fisherman to strip eggs from salmon carcasses. When fish buyers pay only a fraction for fish meat compared to what they pay for eggs it leaves little to wonder about why tribal fisherman would leave carcasses in exchange for their eggs. Currently, buyers are paying only up to 40 cents a pound for any type of salmon, but up to 5 dollars a pound for eggs. Salmon eggs are particularly desirable in the caviar market for their naturally occurring oils, large size and ability to retain their shape as an attractive market product.

Unfortunately, despite the tribes’ desire to donate excess salmon carcasses to food banks and other worthy causes, doing so is often beyond their resources. While they have donated carcasses to the public and to food banks and shelters locally, wider distribution is a much more difficult task. There is a high cost to process and keep fish fresh for human consumption.

If you have any suggestions for other sources we might tap to dispose of salmon, we would be more than happy to hear them. We always welcome suggestions that make tribal fisheries more effective.

Lastly, it is illegal under tribal regulations to dispose of a salmon carcass without recording that catch. Dumping in areas and in amounts that might cause pollution is also prohibited. This year, instead of being left on stream banks, many of the carcasses are being dumped out in the Hood Canal.

Tribes take their responsibility to regulate fisheries very seriously and fishing violations are not condoned. Tribal fisherman who violate regulations appear in tribal courts, where they face stiff fines, loss of fishing privileges and even jail time. "

If it is recorded it counts against the quota.

Are there any doubts that all of those dumped fish are duely recorded and added to the Indian 'quotas'? There is NO way to know how many are dumped! We ALL know the obvious answer! Besides, there is no evidence that suggests even close to an even split of fish (Treaty and Fed. mandated) has been ongoing in NW Washington anyway. Many reports to the contrary in favor of the tribes. ... On the Columbia scenario, there is clearclut written evidense of not staying within these laws! The states were lawsuit bullied by the Col. Tribal Comm. and NMFS to giving in to an Indian netting quota 6 1/2 times as large as non-Indians got (13%ESA impact to 2% sports and commercial allotment combined). You and I are friends Ramstrong, and I know you have the sense to understand that few of these "dumped fish" that can't be accounted for are getting tallied toward any Indian quotas! What possible motive is there for them to do so? We don't see any.

RT

Steve, I was in no way defending them. I was just reposting what was posted above to answer a question. I don't live in washington, I know very little about what they do as far as self regulation. If there really is a tribal justice system this would be the first I have heard about it. Also it is easy to account for the dumped fish. Count the egg skeins, If hens are sold deduct 2 skeins from the count per each fish sold, divide the remaining # by 2 and you know how many fish were chucked. Not that difficult, that is unless the fish harvested are almost gone and the eggs are all singled out.

Sounds reasonable Ryan. And they may actually do that with the eggs? Regardless, they don't account for the numerous bucks wasted.

How does that account for the hundreds if not thousands of male salmon that were thrown back?

If anyone has any questions on Treaty Fisheries, I can either answer them for you or put in contact with someone that can. You can reply to this email adress or my office number is (360)297-6546. To save you on long distance charges if you want to chat on the phone, you can email me a good time to call you, or you can call me and I'll call you right back.
Emmett