I'm retired, and not well off, so a guided trip is a luxury. Therefore I'm in agreement w/ Salmo G. If the guide thinks his service is above and beyond then he should charge more or write it off as return engagements. Why don't the guides buy eggs from hatcheries like Ammerman does?

Good thread.....

I am not a guide and have never hired a guide but admit upfront I have a problem tipping, even in restaurants although I do usually tip the waitresses unless they are totally incompetent.

Guides are a different issue. I figure I work my arse off for my customers, can tell stories with best of em and am available to them almost 24-7 when they have questions or issues.

I go the extra mile to insure they have the right product at the right time and a fair price. The way the last year has gone I have spent many, many extra hours accomplishing this for my customers. With the outstanding runs we have had this last year, sourcing product has been a nightmare and I will warn everyone, it is looking like this season is going to be as bad or worse.

I figure I this is what I get paid to do and a tip is not expected. That is how I look at guides. They get paid to work their arses off (remember boys, it IS a job and I don't imagine anyone is forcing you to make this your carreer... )

The egg issue is a tricky one..... it is pretty well understood down here that eggs stay with the boat. My thoughts are it should be negotiated up front and a 50-50 split makes sense unless a client uses more eggs than usual.

If the guide is spending roughly $12 an hour on expenses then he needs to get out of the business.

Please explain to me how a guide would be spending $12/hr on expenses. Quality rods and reels should last awhile and therefore the initial cost would be spread out over a long period of time. Boat costs? Same. Not to mention all of these items fall under business expenses and get written off. Of course, I am not a tax consultant so please contact yours to find out more information.

That $18.75 figure also only accounts for the days when the guide takes just one person in their boat. How about the 2, 3, maybe 4 person days? Yeah, they're humping out there getting all of them rigged, baited, etc. but multiply that out (click Start->Run and then type Calc and press Enter) and that's damned good money.

If they're losing $12 in expenses an hour then maybe they need to start buying Vision Hooks .

I would think that with all the preparation and transportation, a guide would probably have invested at least 12 hours in order to provide 8 hours of fishing - that's a long day. I love to fish, but after doing that day after day, it would start to feel like work.

I ALWAYS tip, appropriately of course. I've been out enough times on charters and with guides to know how to let them know that I'm not just a guy who doesn't really fish and just wants to see what it's all about, versus a corporate schmuck kind of guy that would rather be golfing.

I think that guides appreciate sharing tips with those that are truly interested. Those that do share are tipped accordingly. Those that don't, are tipped too. It's up to you, but I like to feel descent when I walk away, and know that if I call to book another trip, I'll be remembered and appreciated.

Some guides just don't have customer appreciation skills and they won't get any future business from me, but I still tip anyway.

I've tipped anywhere from $5 to $50 bucks depending...you make the call.

I ALWAYS tip, appropriately of course. I've been out enough times on charters and with guides to know how to let them know that I'm not just a guy who doesn't really fish and just wants to see what it's all about, versus a corporate schmuck kind of guy that would rather be golfing.

I think that guides appreciate sharing tips with those that are truly interested. Those that do share are tipped accordingly. Those that don't, are tipped too. It's up to you, but I like to feel descent when I walk away, and know that if I call to book another trip, I'll be remembered and appreciated.

Some guides just don't have customer appreciation skills and they won't get any future business from me, but I still tip anyway.

I've tipped anywhere from $5 to $50 bucks depending...you make the call.

I'm not a guide - but I've hired guides about 5 times (not counting 2 charter fishing trips).

Worst trip - Jet sled 1 mile down the Sky, anchor the boat, drop some plugs, and sit and BS all day trying to keep warm in front of the propane heater. Occassionally jumping up (if it's your turn) to crank in a chum on that 25lb cable. Woohoo. I think we moved about 20ft all day. My dad had fun, and 2 out of 3 clients got their 2 chum limmit - but I would never do that again.
I don't think I tipped - but it was my first trip, and I didn't really think about it (plus I was paying my dad's way as well).

Best trips - fly fishing for salmon/steelhead on the NF Stilly, Sky, and an OP zipperlip. We floated in personal pontoon boats (awesome way to go), and learned a heck of a lot about reading the water, fishing under differnt conditions, choosing the right equimpment, and tons more. 2 trips I ended up with sore arms from all the fish, 2 trips we got skunked. He worked hard each time, shared 'secret' guide tricks/locations/flies etc, made us laugh, and taught us a lot. He got a tip every time.

If you can afford it, and he wasn't a complete looser - a little tip seems pretty reasonable to me.

why do people deem tipping necessary. I have a job, i picked that job, its my choice to go to work every day and when i do a good job, bust my butt and don't even take a break sometimes nobody feels the need to tip me. if i'm quoted a price for the services someone is willing to provide then why do i need to give more? if they thought their services were so much better than the next guys then maybe they should have charged more.
When you go to the store and the cashier hurries to get you through the line do tip her?
Here's a tip "Don't eat yellow snow"

Why?

What goes around comes around dude...think about it. It's part of that business. I don't get tipped for my work, but I'm not in a tipping business.

If you don't want to don't. Simple as that.

Dave Jackson, figure in cancelled trips (usually half a days wage) and blown out rivers. A lost anchor, 30 to 50 bucks. An accidental broken rod, reel, and heaven forbid your boats main powerplant takes a dive. Does this stuff happen all the time? No. But it does seem like it's always something...

But again, those items will be prorated over their lifetime. And as long as you're buying quality stuff with a good warranty then that's not a problem. Especially since it's all written off at the end of the year (please see my previous "IANATA" comment).

Cancelled trips happen. It's part of the business. But when you have 3+ trips a week of 3+ anglers in the boat, that tends to make up for it.

If it wasn't such good work that paid respectably well there wouldn't be so damned many of them.

Some things never change. Some of us don't understand why tipping is common in the fishing guide industry, and some of us think it's natural as can be. Some claim that guiding isn't a "service industry." I don't get that. By definition, it's a service industry because the product is a service, not a commodity. Or maybe like computer software, it's "intellectual property." (LOL)

Although I haven't ever hired a guide for freshwater fishing, I know a little about it because I did it in a lifetime long ago. A tip was nice, but I didn't understand it any better then than I do now. We set our own rates to cover the cost of our direct and indirect expenses and our perceived value for our time. It was very hard work, as we did multi-day float trips, setting up new camps every night, so work days were from 7 am to 10 or 11 pm. But if I had thought I wasn't being paid enough for my time or expenses, I would have charged more. Since we were fly fishing, nobody was interested in eggs.

That was my point in this thread last year. Guides are independent businessmen who set their own rates, just as the carpenter and plumber does who work on my house. I don't tip them because of their personality or the good jokes they tell. A key difference tho, is I don't spend the entire day with them, either.

I think it comes down to traditional practices that vary from one society to the next. Here we tip waiters and waitresses, haircutters, baggage handlers, taxi drivers, baristas and fishing guides. And apparently we don't tip carpenters, plumbers, grocery clerks, dentists, or investment bankers. Almost random?

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Salmo g. .. I enjoy all of your posts whether I agree with them or not. This time I do but also understand the guides need for eggs(and my own- but not completly necessary).
Your posts are very to the point and succinct. Keep on posting!! [email]greenwaters[/email]

I have no problem tipping. But with some of the comments made, that if its in there boat, its their eggs at the end of the day. Maybe us clients should just give back what we used. If i use 1 skien of eggs then i keep the other 3. Or maybe the eggs should be the tip. Since it will cost us money to buy eggs. You don't want us to buy eggs from the indians do ya.
Just my .02. You don't like it I'll invest my money in another guide. theres plenty of good ones out there.

Ok.......for all of you that say you don't know why they should get tipped because you don't get tipped??? What about all your year end bonus's and for a most companies nowaday's profit sharing. You say you aren't rewarded for working your arse off but think about next time you get a 2 or 3 hundred dollar bonus for profit sharing. I personally know a few guides, Johnny Coho, having worked for him in AK this last summer, and Dennis Dickson, and I know how much work behind the scenes goes into it all. Whenever I am over at Dennis's house he is always tying up flies, every time I am over there he's either at the bench or emailing clients. And for the gear guides, start adding up the costs of 25,000 dollar sleds, 7 or 8K drift boats, 10 rod and reel combos @300 each, and it starts adding up. Heck.........take the cost of corkies and slinkies. A jar or shot cost 8-10 bucks and granted they buy corkies in bulk, but start adding up losing 30-50 a day which is commin when side drifting and it starts to add up.
Yes if they weren't covering costs they would raise there rates, but wouldn't you rather them charge a little less, and give you the option of tipping than raise there raits. I know these guys and the industry fairly well and lets just say that these guys are in it for the love of the game and to see that smile on the person's face as they land their first steelhead. They are not going to retire rich anytime soon.

One important element that seems to be missing and keeps coming to mind when I read all the reasons such as high boat and gear costs and the hours these guys have to put in as justification for needing to be tipped.

No one is making them be guides. If it is so cost prohibative and over work/under pay, why are so many doing it? Is there someone we don't know about forcing them to enter or stay in this line of work????

Straydog,

I think the point people are making about Guides costs are that they aren't getting rich. A good guide can make a good living though. And you are right that they can certainly do something else. A good guide loves his/her job.(Or at least most of the time)
One note that I mentioned earlier and some other people have also mentioned is a guide making an extra effort. For example I have a good friend who guides up in Hells Canyon in a jetboat. On slow days I have seen him burn over twice the normal fuel running around working his butt off hitting every little spot he knows to get a few fish. At the same time I have seen some of his competitors working the same tired old spot all day and saving fuel and not catching fish. Now my friend doesn't expect a tip because of this, he works hard at it because he wants to get his clients into fish. However, to me that extra effort sets him apart and in my mind as a client he has earned a tip from me. People have used the example of not tipping the plumber etc, but that is not always true. I go to college and do electrial work on the side. When I do work for these people I make a point of doing very nice work and as fast as I can. The last three jobs I have did, when I got paid my customer had added an extra $50 or so because of the "great job" I had did. Do I expect it? No, but I am always appreciative. And as someone mentioned above in most businesses extra effort results in bonuses and promotions.
One last note, people always talk about guides fishing all the time. In reality, most guides help other people catch fish all the time. Spend all day running a tiller while watching people miss strikes, foul up gear, and treat high dollar equipment like garbage. Yes it's all part of the job, but seeing it gave me an appreciation of the effort it takes sometimes.
Sorry such a long post.
Tom

I agree with the what has been stated several times. If you don't want to tip - don't.
For most of us, we've saved up some extra money for our trip, and tipping is not in the budget. No one will mind.

As for me, I like to be a 'good customer', especially if I ever plan on using their services again. When you care about the little details - fresh eggs, the best fly, finding the best 'taking' water, getting feedback on your presentation, a nice streamside lunch, and going the extra mile in general - you want them to consider you a good customer. If you are an a$$ at Denny's, you can expect a loogie (sp?) in your hamburger. If you are a bad customer on the river (tipping is definately not the only factor here, mainly it's your overall attitude), then you'll get what you paid for - probably nothing more.
I tip the lady who deep cleans our house once a month, and you can tell she appreciates by the effort she gives it every time. I tipped a guy who washed the outside of our windows and skylights because he was meticulous and didn't let a single streak go un-noticed. And I don't mind tipping a guide if I think he deserves it.

Another point - guides need to keep their base rate competivive to attract new clients. Cleary some guides are worth way more than others who charge roughly the same rates. When you find the good one, and you plan to use him again, I would advise becoming one of his 'good customers' - whether it's just being friendly and sharing some jokes, helping take down the equimpment at the end of the day, not being pi$$ed because you may have gotten skunked, or maybe you leave a small tip...

i am a south west wa.fishing guide.tipping to me is not at all expected but greatly appreciated.a few examples of a day on the river.you go out with your clients have a great day,get your limits early,the clients think your great,give you a generous tip,easy day for me and got a nice tip.then theirs the days when the fish aren,t co-operating,you fish for hours without a strike,clients are wondering whats the matter with this guy and your fishing your arse off. somtimes,but not often you get skunked.some clients leave dissapointed no tip given.worked twice as hard as the other example,but we all know thats fishing.i will keep fishing till dark or they tell me to go home if nesesary to get my clients some fish,not because i want a tip but i want them too come back.that is far more important to me than a tip.most of the time my day runs about 12 to 14 hrs.i also enjoy it very much,enjoy meeting new people, and if i was in it for the money i would try something else. scott
http://www.scottguides.com

Salmo;

Since you have given your opinion on tipping, I'll jump in and tell our board my fillings concerning this issue, and few others. As you know Salmo, I too was a guide for about tens years. When I was guiding, I did not expect any other payment other then my original service fee. At that time, I charged $100 per person. If I took 3 people out, I made pretty good money that day.

My operating cost at that time for licenses and insurance ran about $1800 yearly. I spent about another twenty five to three thousand dollars on fishing tackle each year. The fuel for my truck and boat costs me about another $3000 each year (and I mainly fished the Cowlitz). So that's about $7,800 each year just for normal expenses right off the top. That also meant that I had to take at lease 78 people out fishing just to break even. Now that doesn't cover any motor, truck or other tackle repairs. Drift boat guides may get by a little bit cheaper because they don't have to feed the jet sled and its associated costs to keep it running, but if you have both, raise the costs even more (trailer and other license taxes, etc.).

So are most guides getting rich from fishing? No. A tip was always appreciated, but never expected. The only time that I felt that a tip was expected, was when I stayed out fishing for another 2 or 3 hours longer then the normal eight hour fishing trip (8 hours). I always told my clients that my $100 fee was for eight hours of fishing, or until they caught their legal limits of fish. Legally, they could not continue fishing after they had caught their limits.

As far as the egg thing goes, I always told my clients before fishing "the eggs were going to stay with the boat", before we went fishing". I explained to them that the bait that they are using today was the bait caught from the fish the day before. If I was not using "eggs" for that days fishing, I didn't mind giving them the eggs that were caught during that day fishing. Either way, if they really wanted the eggs I would let them have them. I just tried to let them know that their eggs would be used to help the next clients enjoy their tip, just as they have done. Almost never did my clients bark about the eggs after explaining why I needed their eggs.

Moral of this story; if you're not a full time guide willing to fight and put up with all the elements of nature, day in and day out, and you don't have the patience to deal with all types of personalities, seasons closers, and all the other "crap" that the average fishermen never sees or has to deal with, don't do it!

You will save yourself a lot of money, and enjoy your fishing much, much more. Just remember this, when fishing becomes work, fishing is no longer "the fun thing" that we all love to do. If you feel that your guide gave you more then what you had paid for, then by all means, tip him what ever you think it is worth. There is no set price for tipping a guide! There are lots of want-to-b's guides out there, but when you fish with a professional, you will know it.

Well, that's my 2 cents worth!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????