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#132819 - 12/31/01 01:24 PM Re: Illegal boat search?
pathfinder Offline
Alevin

Registered: 12/25/01
Posts: 11
Loc: Whatcom County
Dang WesH, for a dude that didn't do any reseach, you posted alot of research! Great info, I'm copy/pasting for future reference.

G-Man, great point. I am a very staunch believer in the US Constitution and I've worked within the law enforcement comunity. I saw and heard lots of stuff that goes beyond the scope of the law, all because the copper felt it would make his job (tossing crooks in jail) easier, making the streets safer for old ladies and little children, bla, bla, bla...

Problem is that more coppers/wardens/etc...forget that law enforcement isn't black and white and it's about more than criminal law. The laws of this country were never intended to be enforced by the letter. Rather it is supposed to be enforced to the spirit of the law. This is some thing that has stuck with me since my first class on criminal law.

It is up to us, the citizen, to make sure that our rights, whether US Constitutional, State Constitutional/etc... are not stepped on.

Anytime I have to deal with lawmen, I always cooperate and stay friendly. But I also question them anytime I feel they wish to overstep their authority. I don't recomend this to everyone but being a former copper myself, I have a hard time staying quiet when I know I'm being dumped on.

Just another guy's .02 cents worth. cool
_________________________
"Only God can forgive Osama Bin-Ladin"
"It's our job to arrange the meeting"
UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS

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#132821 - 12/31/01 03:55 PM Re: Illegal boat search?
Hey Yall Watch This Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/05/01
Posts: 452
Loc: Olympia....beeyotch
WesH-
Quote:
I ask why not? Why not inspect the film canister or the fishing vest or the tackle box or whatever? Picking on the aforementioned film canister, while it certainly won't contain a fish, perhaps it may contain - eggs? After all by the scenario you set forth we are fishing in a selective gear rules area, no bait allowed.


WesH, this may not be the norm, but I know to be considered hunting, the gun does not have to be loaded, but rather bullets in possession and a firearm (unloaded) is still considered hunting. I understand this because "hunting" is final. Not too many shoot and release hunters out there that carry loaded firearms.

Now, like or unlike most people, I carry with me many different types of lures, hooks, baits, etc. with me while I am out fishing. Am I breaking the law by having a container of eggs on my boat just because I didn't clean out the boat from the last trip? If that's the case, if I'm fishing with barbless hooks, but possess barbed hooks that have not been clipped, am I breaking the law?

[You] are a fish and game cop. Concentrate on fish and game related offenses. I have several good stories of illegal search and seizures that have happened to me in the past. They will probably happen in the future. I have worked for 2 different police depts. in one form or fashion and I know firsthand as a victim and as an enforcer, COPS CAN DO DAMN WELL WHAT THEY PLEASE.

Think I'm joking? Get smart with one when you are in the confines of the law and you are without witness or video camera. Then we'll talk.

Cops deal with criminals on a daily basis so I can understand some of the frustration, but to treat everyone like a criminal until proven innocent is wrong. Not all are like this, granted.

The last time I heard, a game and fish officer has the same authority as a U.S. Marshal, but with state boundaries being more of the gray area. That means they can kick down your door or search whatever they want, AAAAAAAAAAAAND seize what they want, whenever they want.

For anyone to NOT think a police officer's testimony holds more weight in front of a judge than that of the defendant's should really sit in on some courtroom drama.

I personally would like to see at least 2 officers at the scene of any license check, search, etc. It raises the level of accountability and accuracy. Plus, it's hard to fight 2 witnesses in a court of law that have been given authority by the law to enforce the law.

They shouldn't be given MORE power. They should be given MORE people.
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#132822 - 12/31/01 06:52 PM Re: Illegal boat search?
G-MAN Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/23/01
Posts: 403
Loc: BELLINGHAM / EVERSON
Another good point, the eggs. It's not illegal to have eggs in your boat, it would be illegal to use them. And how would they know you had eggs unless they violated your Constitional Rights by performing an illegal search? So you don't stand up for your Constitional Rights and you get a ticket. Sure you would have to take time off work to go to court explain to the judge you were not using eggs, the game warden would admit he did'nt actually see you use eggs, {because he does'nt want to mention the "Illegal Search" part} the judge would throw it out. Just like what happened to LittleZoZo. In the meantime you lost a days wages proving your innocent and wasted the courts time all because he has a badge and stepped over the line.
_________________________
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#132823 - 12/31/01 06:56 PM Re: Illegal boat search?
pathfinder Offline
Alevin

Registered: 12/25/01
Posts: 11
Loc: Whatcom County
Hey HYWT!

That's just what I was gonna add to my post 'till I forgot it...well said.

Keep it going, this is a very good thread! laugh laugh
_________________________
"Only God can forgive Osama Bin-Ladin"
"It's our job to arrange the meeting"
UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS

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#132824 - 12/31/01 07:44 PM Re: Illegal boat search?
Todd Offline
Bumpin the 6X9's

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 25251
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Good points, guys.

Here's some more, Wes...

Game warden sees, or hears of, you using eggs in a closed area. He'd probably ask, and assuming you'd say you weren't using eggs, then he'd likely search you, your gear, and your boat, looking anywhere you could hide eggs. Finding them would not be proof that you were fishing illegally (not illegal to have eggs, just incredibly stupid), but combined with his other evidence that you were using eggs, and that you lied about having them, you'd be popped.

Also, anything illegal found during this search would be admissible to prosecute you for that additional crime, i.e., searching a small plastic box for eggs and finding pot.

If the only infraction that he has any evidence about is keeping a fish, then he can only look where a fish could be. Opening the film canister would lead to an arrest and hassle if it had pot in it, but the pot itself would probably be rendered inadmissible and the prosecutor would either not charge you or would drop the charges when it became clear that the warden was searching a film canister for a fish.

The important aspect of how these types of laws get interpreted is that the final word on interpretation comes from the Supreme Court. The case gets there when someone who has been searched, and busted, appeals it up. The court will always try to find a way to protect us from unreasonable searches, while allowing the cops to do their job effectively. I think the above rule does so very well.

To accept otherwise would lead to having your entire car searched when you are pulled over for running a stop sign, or having your pockets turned out for jaywalking. There just has to be a reasonable connection between the search and the reason for the search. The standard is quite lax, with a fellow fisherman's statement that you were fishing bait being sufficient evidence to search you for it.

It's not really a matter of what interpretation we choose to accept, or whether we choose to accept this kind of search while fishing, but not this kind of search while driving, or whatever.
It's a matter of what the legal doctrine truly is.

In your post above you noted that the warden must have "reason to believe" that the search will turn up evidence of a crime. That reason to believe is the evidence he has about a specific infraction you may have committed. That is the reasonable connection between the search and the reason for it.

Also, none of this has any impact on what the warden may ask you permission to do, and if you say yes, then anything can be searched. If you're legal, then I'd encourage everyone to be as cooperative as possible.

I promise, Wes, that you haven't done anything to offend me in the least. These types of conversations is why we should be on these BB's.

Fish on...

Todd

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#132825 - 12/31/01 11:50 PM Re: Illegal boat search?
LittleZoZo Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 430
Loc: Rochester, WA USA
"if you just bend over and spread your cheeks for us sir, this will all go a lot easier". When they ask permission to search, I tell them no. Why should I give them permission to search? Why? What makes them so important that I should just roll over and present myself for them to have their way with. Ya know, just because an individual doesn't feel like submitting to an illegal search doesn't automatically mean he's guilty of some crime. We'll take the Film canister scenario, it seems to be the most popular one to use. How could a fish cop, in a million years think that you'd store a spare bait of eggs in a film canister? I wouldn't think that the fish cop could use "probable cause" as a valid reason for searching the film canister. Also, If the fish cop got an "Annonymos tip" that I was usuing eggs in a no bait area, but it wasn't against the law to have eggs in the boat, well then what's wrong with lying to him? What's If its not illegal to have the eggs in the first place, then what business is it of his weather or not you have eggs on board..... Look, I 'm not saying that we should hassle law enforcment officers, I'm just trying to remind everybody out there that they're just human beings like us, and as such, they deserve no kind of special treatment. Just because they have the badge doesn't somehow make them better or any more special then you or me
_________________________
If you get home and I'm not there, don't eat it.

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#132826 - 01/01/02 03:17 PM Re: Illegal boat search?
WesH Offline
Fry

Registered: 12/31/00
Posts: 20
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Ok Guys (and Gals),

I hope this comes across as an intelligent and non-aggressive discussion of some of the points being brought up here. I am not targeting any individual, only responding to comments in this thread.

Preface - along with all the other things that I stated I'm not, some one made the statement - 'You are a game cop' or something like that. I'm not sure if that statement was tendered in the impersonal or personal sense. Just to clarify, I'm not a game enforcement officer, I don't work for any government agency, even by contract. I'm just a tired old hacker who likes to fish.

I don't know, I guess I'm getting old enough that I'm a little slow. It took me a while to make the connections on some of responses.

I'll also admit that some of you have me at a disadvantage.

The two most important ones are -

(1) I only fly fish.

I don't share this to say that my way is better than your way, or that I'm superior or anything of the like. In my opinion you can fish any way you like as long as it's legal. I just (perhaps) fish using a different technique and that's it.

I share it because I don't understand the fishing techniques for using bait, or gear, etc. The last time I had a gear rod in my hand was a 51/2 ft. ultralight rig for trout about 9 years ago. So I don't know how many eggs it takes to adequately fish for steelhead using them. You would have to educate me on this, perhaps a film canister or canisters wouldn't hold enough eggs to make it worth while to attempt to circumvent the rules by storing eggs there.

Because I only fly fish, it's very seldom that I would in the course of an ordinary days fishing for me, cross into an area where its different regulations would affect me. Such as a guy bait fishing moving into an area where bait is not permitted. I wasn't being cognitive of this while I was writing my last post here. So while it would be extremely difficult for me to be searched, (ie. vest, fly boxes, raft, pontoon boat, etc.) and have a fish and wildlife officer find anything out of order, my example about finding eggs in a film canister was quite narrow in making the assumption that just because you had eggs on you in a no bait area, necessarily meant that you were guilty of a wrongdoing. This covers all the other aspects of gear and different regulations as well.

2) I don't use drugs. (or smoke, or drink excessively or chase other women or party or ... , shucks, looking at this way I have a pretty boring life.)

So I'll admit that I didn't understand the significance of using a film canister analogy. Todd really threw me for a while with his reference to pot until I did a search and found way back in the archives the story of the search, the film canister and the pot.


That being said, I still stick to my assertation I made in my last response on this thread -

Most of the various complaints that I see concerning searches seem to distill into one of two basics groupings, equipment damage and loss of privacy.

Equipment damage, during an inspection, in my opinion is pretty much a moot point. It would be really bad to have it happen. It is quite rare for it to happen, and in the event it did happen there are mechanisms in place to deal with it, and most of us don't seem to be as worried about it as we are about the loss of privacy.

Now this is where I think we are into the crux of this whole issue. Our (perceived?) loss of privacy in being searched while fishing.

As I stated above, I don't do a lot of things, so it never occured to me that I should be sensitive about having someone inspect/search myself or my equipment while fishing with concern for what they might discover.

I'll probably draw a lot of heat for this, but I'm going to say it anyway. Guys and Gals, if it isn't legal, notice I didn't say right, you shouldn't be doing it, whether it snagging fish or smoking pot or whatever. And no I'm not lilly white either, I done my share of boneheaded things in the past.

I don't want to abrogate anyones right against unlawful search and seizure.

I don't advocate legally prescribing greater power to our fish and wildlife officers.

I don't want to get involved in what you do in the privacy of your home, it's none of my business and generally what you do at home really doesn't have the opportunity to affect me directly.

But, what you do on the water can.

So, turning this whole thing back to the issue of fish and wildlife officers searching for violations and how far they can go.

I can't get inside the head of any fish and wildlife officer so I can't say with a certainty what is motivating them. I know that they are only human with all the faults and shortcomings and aspirations as the rest of us. And I know that some of them will abuse their authority and leave us with a bad memory or even worse. But, I have to assume that some of them at least, are out there because they care about the resource.

However, from the context of ensuring the protection of a sport that I and my family dearly love, and from all indications most of you hold dear, I challenge you to consider -

Using just one focal point for the sake of discussion, If we are true sportsmen (and women) then why not leave the item, that we don't want found, home when we go fishing.

I've never tried pot, and I'm not likely to, but I've known some people who used it. I don't see where you are going to become a better angler because you are using pot, and I don't understand how fishing could make using pot better, so just do one or the other.

Now if we have left the item home, and we are on the water, and we have the dubious pleasure of being inspected or searched and we have been fishing by the rules, then there is nothing to become excited about, we can help the fish and wildlife officers conclude their business with us in as rapid manner as possible and get on with our lives.

The fish and wildlife officers on the other hand are working with someone who is making their life a little easier, they can get done with us faster, and get on to the next guy (or gals) and just maybe they can catch some of the people who aren't playing by the rules and therefore decrease the number of people who are harming our sport.

As I stated a long time ago now, I personally don't have a lot of trouble with allowing a broad interpreation of the authority of fish and wildlife officers with regards to searching myself and my equipment while I am fishing. Because of the way I fish, (not gear or technique) I don't have to look over my shoulder to see who might be watching.

If voluntarily conceeding some of my constitutional right against search and siezure while in the field will help to remove some of the unlawful sportmen and women out there then I for one am all for it.

How about you, which is more important, the pot (or whatever) or the sport?

If we remove the element of discovery of whatever we don't want found, don't we remove the reluctance to co-operate with a search?

Cordially and respectfully,

Wes

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#132827 - 01/01/02 07:32 PM Re: Illegal boat search?
cowlitzfisherman Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/14/00
Posts: 1866
Loc: Toledo, Washington
LittleZoZo, and
Hey Yall Watch This

You guys are right on!

It's real simple; if a Fish & Game officer wants to come aboard my boat, or check my vehicle or whatever, he owes it to me or you or to anyone else to "FIRST" state his reason for his search. Is he searching for "wild fish", or is he searching for drugs? Is he searching for anything that's illegal or jush searching?

Most of these guys earn their money! But it is the way of life that they have chosen! So why not tell us why we are being put through such a search? They know that if we are told what they are searching for, and something else is found, then it will most likely not be allowed in any court of law. Fair is fair, for both the game warden and the suspect. That way, if we ask them what they expect to fine in the "film container" and they tell us "wild fish" or whatever, then we now know that we are being screwed! Game violations searches should not be an "open opportunity" for searches, even those every game "rookie" wants to make his future position better. If I have nothing to hide, then its only fair that the officer hides nothing either!

Wes,

You need to go fishing more, or give up your badge (jk) smile and become a prosecutor!(Nk)

What are we becoming? What's next? Do they start cutting our boots looking for barbless hook? When is enough enough?

The entire key to this thread is "what's your reason" for your search? It must past mustard first, and then become part of the searching officer's record before he can search! Fair is fair!!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

[ 01-01-2002: Message edited by: cowlitzfisherman ]

[ 01-01-2002: Message edited by: cowlitzfisherman ]
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Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

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#132828 - 01/01/02 08:28 PM Re: Illegal boat search?
pathfinder Offline
Alevin

Registered: 12/25/01
Posts: 11
Loc: Whatcom County
Wes, I been writin' a novel for the last year or so and I can't spit out near as many words as you can in this current thread! I could be done and published by now!! rolleyes

Your posts are very articulate and well written and make a good point. Though...giving up any Constitutional right just to rid our sport of some dirtbags is just not a good idea. It's like the elephant and the tent. Once the tip of the trunk gets under the tent flap, it's impossible to stop the rest of him from entering.

Your (our) Constitutional Rights are WAY more important than ANY sport or any one person. Guard them with passion, 'cause the moment you don't, someone will try and take them away. It's in the history and history will repeat itself if we failed to learn from it.
_________________________
"Only God can forgive Osama Bin-Ladin"
"It's our job to arrange the meeting"
UNITED STATES MARINE CORPS

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#132829 - 01/01/02 08:51 PM Re: Illegal boat search?
LittleZoZo Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 430
Loc: Rochester, WA USA
Pathfinder: Very well put, I couldn't have said it better myself..... It has nothing to do with what the fish cop may or may not find..... It has everything to do with ethics and not allowing those in positions of authority to abuse a constitution that so many men have given their lives trying to defend.... It is simply a matter of principle.
_________________________
If you get home and I'm not there, don't eat it.

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#132830 - 01/01/02 09:03 PM Re: Illegal boat search?
G-MAN Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 12/23/01
Posts: 403
Loc: BELLINGHAM / EVERSON
Exactly right Pathfinder, If I allow a game warden to violate my Constitional Rights what is he going to do to the guy behind me coming off the water? Then the next, ect. ect? WesH, this topic is about "Search And Seizures" You being the Fish Cop was just an example that's all. At your age, I bet you don't even know what pot is? laugh
_________________________
"Life is tough!, it's tougher when your STUPID!!
"What don't kill you, will only make you Stronger!'

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#132831 - 01/01/02 10:23 PM Re: Illegal boat search?
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 15582
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
pathfinder said it very well. We have a Constitution that specifically prohibits illegal search and seizure for a reason. The reasoning that if you're not doing anything wrong, you shouldn't worry is goofy. So what if we put a "governmaent agent" in your house and your business and your car to watch your every move because after all, "if you're not doing anything wrong........."

We all want to protect fish, but I don't want that protection to come at the expense of my rights. I don't want a State Trooper looking through my trunk without probable cause, I don't want the Lacey Police looking through my house without probable cause, and I don't want a Game Warden looking through every nook and cranny in my boat without probable cause. Want to check my hooks and license.......fine, but look in my tackle box?..........why? It has nothing to do with whether or not I have anything to hide in my trunk, house, or boat/tackle box. It has everything to do with my rights not to be searched unless I give somebody a reason for doing so.

It's not like there aren't a zillion game violations that could be written up out there every season that would require no search whatsoever.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#132832 - 01/02/02 08:33 AM Re: Illegal boat search?
Anonymous
Unregistered


Really interesting subject and posts! It's a matter of keeping both the police and citizens within the law. That will never be easy; likely impossible.

I want there to be stronger enforcement afield to help deter snagging, litering, poaching, private property abuse, etc. etc. But I want it done properly and ethically. I think most law officers abide. But there are many who do not.

I know from personal experience. Back in my young twenties I was bank fishing the Kalama River, alone. I was working my way up high on the river. At one point I unknowingly passed into either a no bait zone or flyfishing only zone - I can't remember which. Of course it's my responsibility to know the regs. However, the first place I stopped I got out and went down to the river with my corky and a partial egg cluster still on my hook from the previous hole down river. A fisherman near river side there told me it was a no bait (or fly only) zone, so I immediately went back to the car to go back down river - it was definitley not my intention to break the rules! And I didn't because of the luck of running into the other informative fisherman. When I got back to my car there was a WA game officer, by himself, awaiting my return. He asked me if I knew this was a no bait zone. I said yes, that I had just found out from another fisherman before I fished down there. This was the truth. I hadn't fished. The officer promptly told me he had wittnessed me fishing in the no bait zone. I repeated that I hadn't - knowing he just tried a bluff lie on me because I didn't fish there; and he hadn't even had the time to get out and watch me. But I didn't reveal that because I didn't want to piss him off and possibly incure worse rath. He ticketed me for fishing bait in a no bait zone despite my protest. I pleaded not guilty by mail, and showed up for trial in the Longview Courthouse. I explained my version to the judge. When the officer took his oath, the judge asked the officer if he had wittnessed me fish in that zone. Well, to my suprise, he admitted to the judge that he did not. I did notice he gave the courtroom a once over look before he approached the stand. Was he looking for a prospective wittness I might have brought? The guy that informed me I was in a no bait zone? I don't know. But I am sure more than a few times the cops will lie in court to get a conviction on someone they either think is guilty or just didn't like their attitude (challenged their authority). In this case it was the former, he thought I was guilty - but I was not! He contended that my moist 'schmegg' on my hook was indication to him that I had fished illegally. Not enough for the judge. He dismissed the case on lack of evidence. If I had been a little older and less intimidated by this scenario in court, I would have informed the judge, AFTER his ruling, that the officer lied to me afield, bearing false wittness and thus possible false citation. I don't know if that would have gotten the cop a lecture from the judge or not. But it opened my eyes to how the "system" can work sometimes; and sometimes not.

RT

[ 01-02-2002: Message edited by: RT ]

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#132833 - 01/02/02 10:44 AM Re: Illegal boat search?
bobbersdown Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 10/17/01
Posts: 102
Loc: Bellevue Washington
Wow! This has been an informative post. I have to admit that I have had my good and bad experiences with the law. Mostly good. As an example:

This year fishing for chum on Hood Canal near the hatchery - on the day that the snow hit really hard - I was standing in snow on the bank of the canal with a fish that I had forgotten to mark on my catch record. The fishing was really great and I did forget. Along comes the game warden and his partner. They checked my license ( which I promptly gave him) looked at my gear and told me that I had not marked my catch. He asked me if I knew that. I informed him that I was sorry and that I had forgotten to mark the card and that I did know the regulations. I don't know if it was that I looked honest, that he saw the other salmon that I had marked on my card or that he took pity on a stupid fisherman who would come out in 12 inches of snow just to catch some chums. He told me to mark it, not do it again and have a nice day. I was polite to them, they were polite to me.

Now I realize that I was guilty of an infraction. I would have rightfully received a fine. I didn't. I got lucky I guess. But one thing I know for sure is that I would have deserved whatever I got because I got caught breaking a law. Wes and others have it right, it you are not doing anything wrong - then you have nothing to fear by a search of any kind. If you are doing something wrong - suck it up and take your punishment.

Does this mean that my constitutional rights should be walked on? No. But I will tell you that if I am standing there with no one else around and no camera and an officer comes up with a gun on his belt and asks me to do something, or submit to a search that I don't want, I will do it and then ***** about it later to the right people.

Certainly I would be upset if anyone were to search my boat/car, house etc without my permission. This is a basic crossing of personal boundaries. Does this mean that the Warden should not be able to search without permission? I don't think so. They have a very unpleasant job to do. Their job is not about walking around and smiling and making sure that everyone has a nice day. It is about catching people that are taking unfair advantage of others by breaking the laws. If there is probable cause to believe that I was fishing - it does not have to be illegal - and I am not standing near my boat, it is not reasonable for me to expect that the Warden just hang around and wait for me to come back to search it. However, if I come back and see him/her in my boat then I would expect some kind of explanation.

What this topic really boils down to is not the legal rights of an officer to do their job but how we feel about them doing it. A lot of this will be colored by past experience. If I had a bad run in as my only experience, I would not look too kindly on an officer no matter what they were doing.


In the mean time, I will do my best to abide by the law, and if I get caught doing something stupid then so be it.

Just my 2 cents worth.
_________________________
If I'm not fishing-I'm dreaming of fishing. If I'm not doing either I must be ...distracted.

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#132834 - 01/02/02 11:11 AM Re: Illegal boat search?
LittleZoZo Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/11/01
Posts: 430
Loc: Rochester, WA USA
Bobbersdown: I think you are entirely missing the point here. Sure, We want the poachers to get caught. Sure the Game Wardens, cops etc. have a very unpleasent job to do. A job, I might add, that they signed up to do, so let's not feel too sorry for them. I work in construction, in just a few short days I'll be working on a bridge job, in the cold, in the rain, getting my @ss soaked.... It will be very unpleasent, but I dont expect anyone to roll over and let me have my way with them just because my job is "unpleasent". Bottom line: there are a set of rules that Law enforcment officers must abide by. Law enforcement officers are no different than you or me, and the majority of them will try like hell to find the loophole in those rules so that they can accomplish their goals with a minimal amount of obsticals to overcome. That's fine.... Find the loophole, it's human nature to do so. But when they just flat out break the rules and violate my constitutional rights, that's where I draw the line. Personally, I feel that their is way too much authority given to law enforcment officers as it is, without allowing them to start searching people personal property whenever they want. "If you're not doing anything wrong, then you have nothing to hide" is a statement that was generated by weak willed people who would rather let their rights be violated, than to take a stand and risk having to endure a little hardship. The cops got badges and guns....So what? That doesn't somehow make them superior to the rest of us.... The same laws apply to them that apply to us. If I wanted to take a look in your boat, would I just have the right tojump on in and start snooping? Niether do they.
_________________________
If you get home and I'm not there, don't eat it.

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#132835 - 01/02/02 12:03 PM Re: Illegal boat search?
bobbersdown Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 10/17/01
Posts: 102
Loc: Bellevue Washington
Littlezozo - reread my post. I said that it was a basic violation of boundaries. This means that I do not just let people search my things. I also stated that I would be upset and expect an explanation - not lie down and whimper. I also stated that I would do what an armed person wanted - officer or not - when I am the only person around and make a stink late to the right sources. Only a fool will argue with an armed person.

On your point that this is their job and they do not deserve any pity. I would not call it pity, only compassion. I would think that if someone offered you a hot drink after spending a day out in the rain and wind in the winter working on that bridge you would appreciate it. Or would you appreciate it if someone just looked at you and basically had the attitude of 'tough luck, that it his problem because he chose to work construction'? I was only trying to get accross that we should think outside our little box once in a while. I was NOT referring to rolling over for anyone.

As far as the amount of authority given to officers - They should be held to a higher accountability of their actions. This applies to breaking constitutional rights and laws. In fact anyone in a position of authority over other people should be held to a higher standard. I don't think I missed the point at all.
_________________________
If I'm not fishing-I'm dreaming of fishing. If I'm not doing either I must be ...distracted.

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#132836 - 01/02/02 03:14 PM Re: Illegal boat search?
Dave Jackson Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/18/01
Posts: 861
Loc: Milwaukie, OR
Constitutional freedom fighters have a tough time of it when trying to explain to others why it is so important to stand up for what others may deem to be rediculous causes. In the technical sector such hot topics such as file sharing (a la "Napster" and others) and encryption cracking (DVD's, e-books, etc) often times meet with the same questions of validity and relevance.

What it comes down to is this: if you are not willing to fight for your rights, then you are not worthy of such rights. Intrusions into the privacy of private citizens without just cause cannot and should never be acceptable. This should not get in the way of enforcement agencies locating and arresting those who break the law. It should only require their doing a thorough and accurate investigation before searches are done. To me "thorough and accurate" investigations into game violations mean the game officer witnessing the violation first hand, or a witness willing to make a signed statement that they witnessed the violation take place, or enough visual evidence (carcass in whole or parts, blood, etc) to warrant a search.

Personally, I've written enough emails to Ron Wyden that his staff probably cringes everytime my email address comes up in the From field. I take my rights very seriously.
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#132837 - 01/02/02 05:19 PM Re: Illegal boat search?
Hey Yall Watch This Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/05/01
Posts: 452
Loc: Olympia....beeyotch
When I said [you], that was just an insert name here scenario.

Quote:
Only a fool will argue with an armed person.


And what makes these people fools? I have done it twice in my lifetime and I will do it again if I have to. It's called standing up for what I believe in, plus the fact that death is not to be feared. I will not die a chump. I will just die. Big deal. Life goes on with or without you.

I guess I find greater satisfaction than most in what goes around comes around. And, when it's your time to die, you can't hide from God.

This is about rights and accountability. You want to search give me the reason why, first, or tell me your "probable cause" or show me your warrant. I don't give 2 johnnys if I'm legal or not, but the person searching better be legal.

Littlezozo, I'd offer you coffee not because you work construction, but just because that's the kind of guy I am. Like you said, It is a job and you knew what to expect before you signed up!

But pretty much everyone here knows, you refuse a search, you raise a red flag to an officer and all your innocense is depleted. Because you are hiding something you are automatically guilty. I don't care if that's not how it is down on paper, that is how it is in real life.

Probable Cause is the loosest thing in the world, and I've seen some loose things in my lifetime. wink
A cop can make up probable cause, just give him 10 seconds to think.

If you think I am cop bashing, I am not. Hello, I have worked in that field, my brother is going into that field, a cousin is a judge, and a couple more are lawyers. I've seen it from all viewpoints.

I just commend those who do their jobs, right. When I say 'right' that does not necessarily mean by the book. And from me, they always get Yes Sir'd and No Sir'd. It comes down to respect of the law on both sides of the coin. It's just their side is up when you flip that coin.

I would love to continue on, but why beat a dead horse when you can make kung poi chicken?
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thefishinggoddess.com fan club

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#132838 - 01/02/02 07:04 PM Re: Illegal boat search?
cowlitzfisherman Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/14/00
Posts: 1866
Loc: Toledo, Washington
Hey Yall Watch

You and I both agree! laugh

Like I said earlier, "It's real simple; if a Fish & Game officer wants to come aboard my boat, or check my vehicle or whatever, he owes it to me or you or to anyone else to "FIRST" state his reason for his search. Is he searching for "wild fish", or is he searching for drugs? Is he searching for anything that's illegal or just searching?"

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????
_________________________
Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

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#132839 - 01/02/02 07:58 PM Re: Illegal boat search?
Hey Yall Watch This Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/05/01
Posts: 452
Loc: Olympia....beeyotch
Ed Zachary.

I wasn't debating with ya bro, I was right on'n ya. cool

anything new on the access problem you had earlier last year down on the Cow(01`)?

email me if ya like.
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thefishinggoddess.com fan club

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