Considering there are hundreds of millions of Muslim adults around the world, and there are hundreds of millions of Anglo-American adults around the world, splitting fractions of fractions of percentages between the number of people involved in the WTC attack and the OKC attack is silly, so justifying profiling based upon those numbers is flimsy at best.

I used Angry White Men not because I have some sort of "issues". It was a way to identify the two men who were identified to be involved in the OKC attack, simply because it hurts too much to call them Americans. My point on them is the same as the Muslims. What does an Angry White Man capable of doing such atrocities look like? What does a Muslim person capable of doing such atrocities look like?

You don't know, do you?

Guess what? Neither do I. But I sure as Hell am not going to accept a blanket "Be wary of all Muslims" statement, because the next step is bigotry. And bigotry's biggest fertilizer is ignorance.

DJ-
I couldn't agree more. The power of positive thinking is the key.

What if Martin Luther King Jr. had started his great speech "I have a problem" instead of "I have a dream." would anyone have listened?

Aunty- just messing with you, I agree with your first post and I prefer analogies to generalizations in discussion any time.

I'm with Dave.

McVeigh was a professed Christian. Anti-abortionists who bomb clinics are, without exception that I am aware of, professed Christians. By the logic suggested for airline security above, all Christians are possible bombers. And should be search without probably cause, well, just because.

Now, I actually occupy some middle ground. I think the current stance of the government is a little PC'd, in that they are denying that they are profiling, while they in fact are. Which to a degree, I'm fine with. But I think and hope that the profile is a lot more sophisticated than searching anyone who might have ever worn a beard and a turban.

And the danger is that we as a society start to engage in the behavior that happened on some flights right after 9-11, where the passengers decided that they didn't want to fly with some people of middle eastern descent, and asked them to be removed from the plane. These folks were law abiding american CITIZENs.

Most of us have some degree of black/polish/german/irish/catholic/protestant/jewish/japanese/chinese or other non upper class english aristocratic heritage in us. All of those groups were treated like this at some time. The great part about this country is that we have generally decided that that ain't cool.

Let me demonstrate how irrational simple profiling is. We have to remember that the terrorists are individuals, who hate us, who happen to MOSTLY be muslim. If there are 100,000 of them in the world, which probably overstates their numbers by at least a factor of 2, then that means that the next muslim you meet has about 1 chance in 70,000 of being a terrorist. At best. Sound pretty bad? Well, let's scale it a little bit. How do we compare to that number. There were 60,000 murders in the united states last year. Assuming that this rate continues next year, this implies that the next American you meet has about a 1 chance in 4,666 of being a murderer (making some simplifiying assumptions about 1 murder per murderer, 280,000,000 americans, etc). That includes you. So, YOU, are more than ten times more likely to be a murderer, than the next muslim you meet is of being a terrorist.

So, since you're likely to be a criminal, how do you feel about being strip searched? How about being thrown off a plane? Sound like a good thing to improve public safety? Yeah, I don't think so either. I'd rather the law enforcement boys have good reason to give me the full body probe.

Now, there are more powerful ways of doing the profiling, and I happen to think the FBI is capable of doing good work in this area. I hope they continue to do it. Let's let them do it, however, and not let our compassion and fellowship towards our fellow man wither at this trying time.

Im with you Dave Jackson, MLK said it best, and the quote you posted was right on.

Human nature in security officers is going to dictate that Middle eastern lookin men are going to be looked at more suspicously. Are liberal panty wastes going to like it? Probably not. Potential to save some lives? Possibly. Sometimes you have to draw the line with PC thinking. If I have recourse if I am wronged and if it could save some lives I am willing to have my civil rights tread on. We are not talking about having to sit on the back of the bus or drinking from separate fountains here, allready.

I don't think the problem is with profiling in theory, but how it is done. To ignore the fact that 10,000 plus men of middle east men have been terrorist trained and we are their #1 target is ludicrous. As an analogy, you don't fish the entire river, you profile the river and pick the best holding water. But to use profiling as a punitive measure is morally wrong. The stories of passangers refusing to board planes that happen to a middle east(or Indian, or latino, or whoever has dark skin) passanger is just overt racism. The main question in my mind is whether the security agencys are using statistics in increase the odds of catching the bad guys or whether they are justifing their wrong actions with statistics.

I'll type it slower this time, because it doesn't seem to be sticking for some reason.

What...does...a...Muslim...person...look...like?

Turbin and flying carpet? Cmon, I thought this was going to be a simple question.

Or is it that nobody wants to admit that pretty much anyone other than Pastey White Boy over there can be Muslim? And wouldn't it be interesting if Pastey White Boy WAS a Muslim? Betcha he could be. That 16 year old white-breaded American who nosed his plane into the B of A building wasn't, but he was a Taliban supporter according to his suicide note.

Folks, I'm not against tight security. We NEED it to make us feel better. But it should include EVERYONE. Anglos, blacks, latinos, Asians, fly-whippers, bait tossers, and hardware flingers (yes, ESPECIALLY them). And everyone equally. Inconvenience all of them. Embarrass all of them in front of their families EQUALLY.

Terrorists don't have a dress code, nor are they exclusive to a particular global region. And the MINUTE that we start profiling one group more than the rest is the moment that the other group takes advantage of it. Maybe not for the same cause, but certainly for the same result.

Dave, it is not muslims, it is 18-40 year old men from the middle east. Maybe you need to read a little slower?

Are they branded as to where they're from? The passport of the guy who tried to light his shoe explosive said he was from the UK, so that won't work. And they sure don't carry "Made in" labels on them so don't think about looking for those.

Dave,
Read my post above about getting 'profiled' at an Air Force base, yup, a red blooded bunch of US soldiers got 'wanded' and 'patted down', and none of us were 18-40 and from a middle eastern country. You seem to be a little hot over this issue.

Being a minority, I am glad to see that there are Caucasians that can see from the other side. Dave, you sound like my kinda guy. I wish I had a zipperlip to tell you about cuz you deserve it!

I understand why racical profiling seems like a good idea but honestly, have any of you been racially profiled before? Do you have any idea what it feels like? Are there ANY minorities here that have been and felt good about it? Until you have been, you really can't say. Like Dave said, ignorance is the root of racism. Do you all feel the Washington Redskins is a racial name? You know, if the Native Americans didn't think so then it wouldn't be, but they do. The point I'm trying to make is that if the group of people feel it is racist, then it is. If Caucasians felt that calling them 'White' is racist, then guess what? It is racist. Remember that it is really up to the citizen of Middle Eastern descend that has the right to claim whether it is racist or not. The problem is that they are most likely to concerned for their families to speak out. What a shame that we live in a world where we are not all equal, especially in this day and age.

Too much PC will kill a government, and it is slowly working. Yes, you can be overly politically-correct.

I have flown 2 separate occasions since the attacks, and both times I got searched and my suitcase tossed. Note I said suitcase. I asked why, and if they would have told me that I looked like an angry redneck, then next time I would have worn a smile. And I would have been fine with it.

The fact is, your largest concentration of Muslim people are of Middle-Eastern descent, regardless if they look like extremists or not. I say you stop every one of them and check them......PLUS carry on with your random checks. Note I said EVERYONE of them.

This is a war, people. **** being politically correct in this case. I do not find myself much of a racist. Just know, when those Muslim-extremists are targeting Christians, do you honestly think they would let a white American go through their security screening processes, at an airport, unchecked?

I didn't think so.

When you are playing the odds, you go for the best chances of winning....in this case catching. If that means looking for a characteristic that is easy to spot such as tan skin with Middle-Eastern accents, then I say do it.

We are dealing with time and money as big factors, so naturally the airport security screeners aren't going to be able to stop every man, woman, and child to have a heartful one-on-one to find out this person's character.

And if Somali Muslim-extremists attack us, move on down the line. Aunty said it best as "a necessary evil" in this case.

If I offended someone, I apologize, but get real.

haverod:

Bravo that they searched you guys. They should search everyone equally. Black, white, yellow, green, grey, search them all equally. That white guy could be Muslim, could be an anarchist, could be a Husky. Can't tell accurately enough by looking at them.

Search them all. Equally.

The day we all wake up and realize that we are all of the same HUMAN race is the day that we've made great strides towards equality.

Wow-
I guess it's time for me to be offended, I got the search of a lifetime on both of my recent flights. And I look like a white-supremist. (bald head and a goatee) You are all missing the point...it was that security was being turned over to an entity that has failed miserably at everything it has attempted other than war for over 60 years. I don't mind the search or the lines much but I would prefer that us federally background checked (not just state) people be allowed to carry firearms on the plane with us. I promise that if my plane was being threatened by a boxknife weilding group of thugs we would land safely and more than likely on time. I've never met anyone who would not like the opportunity to defend themselves.
As to profiling, I'm all for it. I've been profiled and it didn't hurt a bit. I don't care what the criteria are. Send your whitebread suburbian teenager out to hilltop Tacoma in the Volvo some friday night and see if he gets pulled over by cops looking for drugs. Looking out of place happens to everyone. Skin color, eye shape, hair color, hair texture, accent, clothing or demeanor are but a few telling characteristics that could lead to better security. My view is that the only time we can prevent such things is during the planning stages. The CIA, FBI and Secret Service are the only security force that have a chance with this group. Hell, they couldn't stop Ted Kuzynski, Tim McVeigh or the Columbine kids. Well, I'm off to catch a flight to Vegas for the weekend. SHOT show 2002 here I come!

Dave, I totally agree with you, but until we get the x-ray machines from "Total Recall", it ain't going to happen. What's up with that? Why can't we have x-ray machines like that?

wit45cal - If I am not mistaken, I thought everyone who buys a firearm from a dealer has to be federally approved.

Keep the firearms off of the plane, unless you are some sort of law enforcement designated to carry a firearm on your person at all times. You think you could take the boxcutter guy out in front of you, but what happens when the guy sitting behind you whips his out and slits your throat? The terrorists would then have a firearm.

A bullet hole in a pressurized cabin at 30,000 feet is a bad, bad thing. But what if they have a gun? Bum rush his ass! Eventually he'll have to reload.