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#138132 - 01/30/02 10:56 AM This is just too good ! (nfr)
Anonymous
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#138133 - 01/30/02 11:19 AM Re: This is just too good ! (nfr)
Straydog Offline
Parr

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 43
Loc: Grants Pass, Or.
Excellent piece...... thanks for sharing!
I will have fun sharing with others.
_________________________
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#138134 - 01/30/02 11:38 AM Re: This is just too good ! (nfr)
Dave Jackson Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/18/01
Posts: 861
Loc: Milwaukie, OR
rolleyes

In coutries where terrorism happens more often, it's not the airline industry or any other privatized group that is trusted with airline security. Guess who it is? Don't think on it too long.

The horror of it is that if someone wanted to do an act of terrorism, they could do it. There are too many people in the mix to keep terrorists from succeeding in bringing down an airliner. If they want to do it, it will happen. No matter who is in charge of security. At least when it is federalized they will likely get better wages and benefits which usually brings out a higher-level of recruiting. When you're sharing the same job pool as McDonald's and most of the time LOSING to them it's not what I like to call a "good thing".

Admittedly, the FAA had horrible security testing guidelines prior to 9-11. If they were going to test airport security they had specific guidelines as to how the fake bomb was supposed to look. They would also alert the airport security company ahead of time that they were coming through. Apparently we did not have the same kind of working relationship with Al Quida.

If you want to suggest that racial profiling is the way to go, then let's examine a few things here:

On April 19, 1995, at around 9:03am, the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma City, OK had half of itself blown sky high in the now second largest act of domestic terrorism by:

a) dead horses
b) cougars trying to find dead horses
c) Muslim male extremists mostly between the ages of 17 and 40.
d) angry redneck honkey's mostly between the ages of 17 and 45.

Can't forget that one. I remember a lot of people assuming that this was the act of foreign terrorists when it first happened, and when it was disclosed that these were our own boys it really hit home.

Another thing...what does a "Muslim male extremist" look like, anyway? Do you really feel like you know? Heck, the events from last week show that they don't even have to be male. Whatever the case, go take this FBI test and see how well you score. Sure, it's parody. But it goes farther than that, I think.
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#138135 - 01/30/02 12:10 PM Re: This is just too good ! (nfr)
Anonymous
Unregistered


DJ, remember I didn't write the piece above - it was NL's Larry Simoneaux. But I figure "you" means 'anyone' in your reply. But I have to agree with what Simoneaux is inferring - they need to take a closer look at middle eastern looking males between 17 to 40. Maybe between 10 to 80? Those people know that being searched in high security risk places like airports is forever more what 9/11/01 and mid-east terrorits have brought on in this country and elsewhere. Nothing personal! In fact, if I was an innocent person of mid-east decent I would appreciate them searching me and other profiled people for my own safety and peace of mind before I climbed on the plane. I say to anyone offended by that to really think it over. As for the white domestic terrorists, fortunately their numbers and resolve to destroy this country don't amount to a fraction of the mid-east terrorists bent on bringing down our country. Just a fact. Anyone of eastern decent reading this, please excuse the reality check; and know it's nothing personal. ... I love it when entities such as NL catch absurdities such as this one.

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#138136 - 01/30/02 12:37 PM Re: This is just too good ! (nfr)
flyrod Offline
Alevin

Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 16
Loc: Renton
This is a very tough situation but I think we need to look at history to make sure that we don't make the same mistake again.

In WWII Japanese Americans were put in 'Internment' Camps by our government. Why? Because the 'Looked' like the enemy. They were forced and told to go to these camps for 'their' safety. Funny how when they got there that the guns of the guards were pointed IN at the camp. After stripping them of all their belongings including houses and businesses, The young sons of these 'campers' were then sent off to war to fight for America in the worst of situations. One of the sons that is still alive today mentioned that when he visited a POW camp in Europe, all the buildings, fences, etc. were identical as the internment camp that he had come from, including the guards and the direction the guns were pointed. After the war they we're allowed to leave camp but when they arrived back to where they came from, all their possesions had been taken. And I don't have to tell you by whom.

One of the questions that I have from this tragedy is why were the Japanese Americans singled out? Why not the caucasians of German descent? Obviously it was out of fear and racism. The only reason I bring this up is that my wife is Japanese. Her Grand parents and her parents lived through this ordeal and I know how hard it was on them.

I don't claim to have the answer to this problem but please, before we make another mistake we all need to control our fears and ignorance as these are the roots of racism, and learn from our history and come together with a solution that will reduce terrorism without putting innocent Middle Eastern Americans in a situation like we did with the Japanese Americans. Remember this is a free country for ALL its citizens and no one should be singled out because of color or creed no matter how tempting.

JH

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#138137 - 01/30/02 12:44 PM Re: This is just too good ! (nfr)
Dave Jackson Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/18/01
Posts: 861
Loc: Milwaukie, OR
Of course I know you didn't write that. Those annoying-as-Hell carats at the beginning gave you away. This is why most of the people who forward me stuff in email avoid sending me anything politically-charged, as I'm the kind of guy who will call them on it. They hate that.

It is a fact that the 19 men involved in the 9-11 attacks were Muslim's from several different countries. Asking airport security to somehow be able to identify people who are "Muslim-looking" and thereby subject them to additional scrutiny is very naive. Somali's generally do not fit the normal bill of light-brown skin, for example, and a large percentage of them are Muslims who are decidedly anti-American. Does this mean that we have to scrutinize all people of dark skin? Don't think for a minute that there are not white bread American sympathizers for the Taliban, because there are. One of them (16, wasn't he?) crashed a single engine plane into the B of A tower a couple weeks ago back East.

And several documents that were written for Taliban terrorists openly instruct their terrorists to shave their beards off, buy the American clothing, do whatever it takes to blend in. This goes against their religion, but as they were given permission by their leader for the purpose of a greater cause they can do it.

My wife is Portugese, which gives her a lovely light shade of olive skin and dark hair. Might this look "Muslim" to someone? Possibly.

I'm certainly as freaked out as most anyone else about airport security and being safe. I just don't want a situation like this to become the fertile grounds that bigotry can grow and thrive in.
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#138138 - 01/30/02 12:55 PM Re: This is just too good ! (nfr)
Dances Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/01/01
Posts: 286
Loc: Clarkston Wa
Hey DJ
I didnt know Hey_Yall was involved in the Oklahoma bombing rolleyesJk. remember it is a joke and it is ment to be taken light heartedly ok.
RT
Where do you find stuff like that or who finds that stuff for you? Good stuff man made me laugh
Dances Out
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Doug Richert
www.Hellscanyonsportfishing.com

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#138139 - 01/30/02 01:13 PM Re: This is just too good ! (nfr)
Dave Jackson Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/18/01
Posts: 861
Loc: Milwaukie, OR
Ya see, this wasn't a joke, per se. It was social commentary with a tinge of humor. The difference is that usually the person who passes it along generally agrees with the premise of what is being said. And the premise of the piece was "Don't give airport security to the inept US government, and racial profiling is 'common sense'".

Kind of like how you tend to hear more foul-mouthed jokes from people who usually talk like that, or more racially-biased jokes from bigots. What comes out of the spigot is generally what is at the source of the well.
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#138140 - 01/30/02 03:54 PM Re: This is just too good ! (nfr)
Anonymous
Unregistered


Flyrod, I agree it was wrong for what happened to Japanese Americans during WWII. I feel badly for them. My wife worked a few years for a great boss and person who was interned as a Japanese American. But the NL piece didn't even hint at internment camps for Muslim Americans! NL's Simoneaux implied it would probably be a good idea to do a few more searches of those that fit a terrorist profile - both as a precaution and a deterant. And what are they put through? Have to walk thru a metal detector, open a bag, and maybe have their shoe looked at for a few seconds; before they get on a commerial airliner.

Now the following analogy is lighthearted too, so please accept it in that vain. ... If Ted Lewzinski (unibomber) placed an extremely powerful bomb into a mallard duck and put it into a big city park pond with a few other ducks, then called in the legit bomb threat to the police ... hmmm, "We're really sorry to inconvenience you ducks here, but one of you has a bomb inside of you set to go off before we can evacuate the park and the grade school next door. So, do you mind if we briefly look under your feathers here? It won't take long or hurt at all. But if we don't find that bomb, it's gonna hurt everyone real bad - and worse". ... OK, not the best of analogies. But if you look thru the feathers you should see a little bit of a point there? confused ... wink

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#138141 - 01/30/02 04:28 PM Re: This is just too good ! (nfr)
Dave Jackson Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/18/01
Posts: 861
Loc: Milwaukie, OR
Ted Lewzinski? If that's a mutation of Monica and Ted I'd hate to see what the bomb delivery method is. eek
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#138142 - 01/30/02 04:35 PM Re: This is just too good ! (nfr)
Firma LaDuce Offline
Alevin

Registered: 11/08/01
Posts: 16
Loc: NW rivers
Dave do you think that guys who keep snagged salmon also generally break a lot of other laws? Thats what can happen when you generalize. You condem National Lampoon for generalizing and then you make your own generalizations in this same topic. Its to bad how all our lives have changed. Its not just muslims or light brown people that have to go through inconveniants we all have been change by the economy and lost jobs and lots of killed people and being afraid of this type of thing happening again. Those are a lot tougher than having to be searched for a minute along with other types of people being searched. Get real
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#138143 - 01/30/02 04:51 PM Re: This is just too good ! (nfr)
Dave Jackson Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/18/01
Posts: 861
Loc: Milwaukie, OR
Firma:

Please help me in identifying the generalization that I used in my post. I'm missing it, I guess.
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#138144 - 01/30/02 05:09 PM Re: This is just too good ! (nfr)
Anonymous
Unregistered


I just found it DJ.

Quote:
the person who passes it along generally agrees with the premise
Hey, you "profiled" me DJ. So the new 'kinder gentler' RT will exit this thread before it becomes too political. I really did think it was a very funny piece of irony, and that's mainly why I posted it - the point made was secondary. That I can't help but understand the NL point ... ah, nevermind. smile

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#138145 - 01/30/02 05:33 PM Re: This is just too good ! (nfr)
Dave Jackson Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/18/01
Posts: 861
Loc: Milwaukie, OR
Sure I generalized in that instance, but it's a fairly safe generalization. I mean, you certainly wouldn't catch me passing along a piece promoting the agenda of the far-right unless it was some sort of parody of their group that was made by someone more towards my beliefs.

That sort of generalization is worlds different than the one that would require security officials to look for "Muslim-looking" people and check them out more than the others. I already went over the point that "radical Muslims" as they are called can look a number of different ways. They don't all walk around looking like the Arabians in the Bugs Bunny cartoons, ya know.
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#138146 - 01/30/02 05:59 PM Re: This is just too good ! (nfr)
flyrod Offline
Alevin

Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 16
Loc: Renton
RT,
I know that what you are saying isn't the same as internment camps but the idea is the same...as you said,'both as a precaution and a deterant'. These are the same reasons for the internment camps. I also realize that you posted this in good fun but at the same time I have to agree with what DJ had to say. As far as your duck story is concerned, it's all good and fine as long as ALL the ducks get checked. And this is what I have an issue with. And FirmaL, I do't have a problem of getting searched as long as everyone else has to go thru the same thing. Please don't have sommeone searched just because of their color. Look, I'm a minority (Not middle Eastern) and know what it feels like to be singled out. It especially hurts when I know I'm as innocent as the next person. Trust me, it's not a very good feeling. This might be hard to believe but it's already hard enough being a minority in this country. I've had to grow up with the bigotry all my life....and why? Because I don't look caucasian. I realize that 99.99999999999% of caucasian are good people, people I would stand up for. What you have to realize is that 99.9999999999% of Middle Easterners are good people as well.

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#138147 - 01/30/02 06:52 PM Re: This is just too good ! (nfr)
Chuck Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 03/12/99
Posts: 157
It's all good, airport security should be a little more suspicious of men of middle eastern descent. Aint gonna hurt and alot of inocent middle eastern people are probably excpecting it, hell probably inviting it.
_________________________
Chuck

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#138149 - 01/30/02 09:23 PM Re: This is just too good ! (nfr)
haverodwillfish Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 01/24/01
Posts: 168
Loc: Fort Lewis, WA
If little old ladys in their 80s bombed the world trade center and let's not forget about the pentagon, then American's would stereotype against 80 year old little old ladys. It is just proven, but here is an example of not getting "profiled". I am with my Military Police unit deploying to Kosovo in October. We are going through the entrance of the air force base, getting ready to board a plane for Kosovo, dressed in all our "battle rattle" complete with 9MM, M4 Carbine, bayonets, the whole works. Well guess who had to take all that off, and still get 'wanded' with the metal detector, and all our bags and stuff ran through the x ray machine, yup, you guessed it, ALL 60 OF US!!! That's right, the US ARMY, loaded for war, still got checked out at an Air Force terminal. So, to say that racial profiling is apparent, yeah, it is, but it is pretty broad based, as you can see from above.
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#138150 - 01/30/02 10:45 PM Re: This is just too good ! (nfr)
Dave Jackson Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/18/01
Posts: 861
Loc: Milwaukie, OR
Nobody has answered my question. What does a "Muslim Extremist" look like? And does that description include blacks? All of them, or can you differentiate between Muslim and non-Muslim blacks? There's a lot of black Muslims, you know.

And where's the interrogation of the angry white men? Why aren't they targets? Because that could be one of us? Not that we'd do anything, but how do they know? A lot of us would fall into similar profiles that Tim McVeigh did.
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#138151 - 01/30/02 10:47 PM Re: This is just too good ! (nfr)
Desertdog Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 01/09/00
Posts: 116
Loc: Winnemucca Nv
My Daughter just flew this week with 3 small boys ages 3 5 & 6. their luggage was selected for random search. rolleyes Kewl. no big deal. In her haste to leave her domestic situation she had pack some of the little ones soiled clothing in a tightly sealed plastic bag. The bag was opened.... ewwwww... eek
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#138153 - 01/30/02 11:37 PM Re: This is just too good ! (nfr)
elkrun Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/15/01
Posts: 783
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
AngryAunty-

"most WHITE men aren't THAT angry"? sort of generalizing that all white men are a little angry.... I prefer Euroamerican and I'm happy most of the time.

Besides, what did apples and oranges ever do to you?

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