This thread was sparked by the FlippingGenius thread, and hopefully will bring in some lively discussion.

The question: Should angling guides have to submit to more rigorous testing than what is currently required (is there any?) in order to accept passengers on their boats? If not, why? If so, what kind of testing?

It is interesting that we require all auto drivers to submit to driving tests before they get their license, but boaters can just hop in and motor off. Should ALL boaters of craft over x feet get a form of pilots license?

I look forward to the submissions.

Good question, as I have only oared once with no real hazards, I sill found it to be somewhat of a challenge. So my question is what regulations are in place for white water quides as this is a discussion on the skill of rowing a boat, should the guides be get certified in the same manner.

one other question to bring up is how do the new guys like myself. I can afford the boat, but I am not qualified to row it down any river without proper training.

Rowing a driftboat is extremely easy as I found out on my first float yesterday. I have rowed rafts before but a driftboat is much easier. From everything I have read and from all the people I have talked to driftboat accidents happen for 2 reasons the boater is either unprepared or lets his guard down. in most cases I believe it is the latter. I don't think more regulation is required i think more common sence is required

I am kinda leery of the State controlling who can and cannot be a guide.I mean they now controll who can drive and you have all seen your share of total idiots and incompetants on the highway.
Maybe a guide association.Completely voluntary,but having so much credibility that if you didn't belong,most people would shy away from you.
That would be some monumental task though to get enough of the top guides together and agreeing on anything.Just the nature of being a guide,I guess.
Maybe the State shold be involved.People's lives are at stake.But,of course,the State has, pretty much,fouled up everything they put their hands on.
It's a dilema.If I were hiring a guide,cold,without referances,I would like to know that he was more than just competant to make out a check.....Bigdog out.....

It dosent matter how good you are on the oars or at catching fish! If you dont know the correct path on the Calawah and the Solduc in many places you WILL have BIG problems! As far as the Oxbow goes, it takes a proper set up before the last corner and the ability to pull hard and get back away from that rock when you get there. Its a change of direction in heavy flowing water. Ive seen guys do 360's before the rock and make it (barely)...

Bob D

I would be afraid if the state had to do it. It woild turn into a money issue with no real improvment in the way things are now. I could see a guides lisence costing several hundred dollars. Plus there would be special taxes on guiding not to mention the required insurance which would be a special high risk high dollar policy. I can see guide fees doubling or trippling. I think a private group or membership program would be far more meaningful

Right now it costs $180 for a steelhead licence a year. It cost me about $200 a year for full covarage ins. on boat and lots of liability covarage on the passengers. I have a part time guide policy, I think its 500 a year or so for full time guiding. Rates vary and so does coverage. There isnt much in place for required coveage except if you get a park permit.
They have requirements.
As far as a group of private guides and or people giving there blessings...It wouldent work! These groups are not bias and want to keep the good guide lists as short as possible or would rather endorse friends without the same experience as the ones who really know there way around a particular area. Especially when big areas are closed early and the guides of that area have to seek out new water!

Bob D

BC's system seems reasonable where they limit the number of guides that can guide on a certain river or system.

One thing that I think would be a small help would be how long the aplicant has owned a licensed drift boat.Set a minimum amount to get your guide license and require posting this information or at least make it verifiable?

I am sorry but if a guide was to go thru some training just to put people in there boat and "motor" down the river then each and every person who gets on the water should go thru the same training. I see more and more fools out there on the water every time the fishing gets hot. A lot in boats that do not belong on the water there fishing on. Yet I see no guide stickers on there boats. Of all the boats that had trouble at astora last yearmy friend at the coast guard said none had a guide sticker on them. So all I am saying is if it is good for one then lets all get in on it.

As someone who is considering purchasing his first drift boat...I know there are marine boater safety courses; are there river safety courses even available out there?

Before I could go hunting, it was mandatory (where I grew up anyway) to take and pass a basic marksmanship course and a hunter's safety course in order to get my license.

As this is a potentially dangerous sport (drifting rivers, ESPECIALLY on the Oly Pen), I'd be a bit surprised if some type of basic river safety course isn't even offered anywhere...anyone know of one?

There are alot of whitewater clubs that offer training courses. My old club did, but no longer exists. You can check the NWRA (Northwest rafters Assoc) and thee is a newer club set uup here in the West. WA area near Seattle that I'm ssue probably has course too.

You guys better watch out for that Ffishchaser guy. He was pedling my boat and nearly fliped us on slack water in a 16' caataraft.

Hey FC, feel like playing hookie on Thursday???

What's that? Give the state another way to get into our pocket books, NO THANKS. My fifteen years on the water is good enough for me. There's a few streaches of water that i'm smart enough to get in a raft for, and some others I'll stay away from. Just because someone get's book smart does'nt mean their gonna save their A$$ when thier out in it. My .02

We license automobile drivers, commercial vehicles even more. Why not boats? Because it'd be too tough to implement? Sounds like with all the Yahoos out there that we need it.

Dave, good thread!

OK, with that being siad, this thread is really close to my heart!

Let's start from the beginning. I was once a licensed Washington State sport fishing guide for well over 10+ years. When I first started guiding, way back in 1986, the only requirement then was to have a WA. State guide license. At that time, it also included fishing for salmon on our rivers! Even those then, it was not a requirement, I took both advance CPR, and advance First Aid! That was for my own protection, not my clients! If I had a misfortune accident, I was certified to handle it.

When a certain un-named "guide", who came up from California, (not knocking Californians) started pushing his own "guide's service agenda" here, things started to change.

Not all changes were for the good of sport fishing, but they surly were for the good of his service!

Soon after developing his service, this person realized that he might be able to "nock out" all the other competition if he could develop a system that would eliminate all the others that could possibly compete with him. THIS IS A FACT (I welcome your replies on this issue, if you have factual information).

So now, we have this bull $hit requirements that all guides need to be "cost guard approved". What a bunch of bull $hit! How possibly will that effect a drift boat on a small, or changing river, or for that matter, a small sled on the same type of river? Does the cost guard teach you how to go through rapids, or how to avoid rocks, or other obstacles? No way! Does it teach the guide how to read water? No way! Now, because a drone has paid his $1000+ to some jerk off coast guard drone, we're are now going to be saved, when his boat overturns, he hits a gravel bar, flips his boat, or hits a hidden log or some other "numb nuts" runs "his jet sled boat"over you. What a joke!!

OK! So we now know how to give our clients CPR! Boy, that makes me want to hire you right now! So how many guides that you know have brought their clients back to life by giving their clients CPR? Well that's another great requirement that means nothing!

OK, let's talk about "first aid". How many of you have ever had your guide give you first aid? Another big joke! The only time that I can see that a Guide would need to have a cost guard certification would be when he was guiding on a main stem river such as the Columbia, or other such main stem rivers.

OK, now it's time to hear from the other guides that are doing it every day. I know that you have something to say, so bring it on!!!! Please tell us how a cost guard license has given us fishermen a better fishing trip.

Cowlitzfisherman
Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Cowlitz fishermen,
I have to disagree with you a little bit. I have a good friend who guides out of a jetboat on the Snake and Salmon rivers. Where he guides he has to have a Coast Guard license, and part of qualifying for that was time spent on that water under someone with a license learning the river. The Snake is a river that gets boats every year, and I am personally glad to know that when people go with a guide up there, the person has at least spent some time learning the water from an experienced person. Now, on other "easy" rivers I agree with you.
Tom

Great thread Dave

From a guides point of view;

Unfortunately Washington State does not require much for obtaining a guides license and that I have a problem with. For a couple of changes I think the State should require all guides to show, before obtaining a guides license, proof of insurance, and a valid first aid and CPR card to be renewed every year just as the Coast Guard requires. (Currently CPR is required yearly but first aid is only required every two years by the American Red Cross) These should be absolutely required!!

Until such changes are made, as far as a guides experience and knowing the waters he guides on well enough to safely carry passengers down a river should be somthing anyone attempting to hire a guide should find out for themselves first hand. Our job is not only to put you on fish but to get you from point A to point B safely.
Ask your guide if he's insured, ask how much for and if he's willing to show proof of insurance the morning of your trip, ask for proof of current first aid and CPR cards (God forbid we ever need it, but make sure we have it!!)
Ask for referrals, how long has he or she been guiding and how many days a week, or when was the last time he or she rowed or run the stretch of river they plan on taking you on. Sure not all guides are going to be honest with you on some questions that do not require proof, so how about asking your local tackle shops or tackle shops in the areas you plan to fish for a guide reference.

Don't mean to get long winded here,..sorry.
Before you get in the boat of a guide or anyone else at that matter remember one thing, you are putting your safety into their hands and it is up to you to know their experience and what plans they do have in place in case a boat is lost.

Even the very best oarsman (or women) can't control every situation and some have lost their boats, but the very best that have are usually the ones that are on the rivers every single day and have a very long list of references.
(I'm not talking about people who "think" they can row anything just because they'sve made it through some tough spots, but the guys (and gals) with years at the sticks or behind the tiller)

Nuf' Said,

J

TW

Unless there has been a MAJOR CHANGE in the coast guard requirements, I believe that your friend has misled you. Your friend may have been wise to take special training to run the snake, but I do not believe that it is a requirement for ALL cost guard licenses. Most guides get what is called a "limited license". It is usually only good to guide on 3 rivers. That's the way it was a couple of years ago, and I do not believe that is has changed.

Let's not forget one thing! The "insurance thing" was never meant to show that the Guide was good or that his clients will be safe or are in "good hands" while fishing. What that really means, is that the guide has gotten insured to protect himself against a personal lawsuit if some unforeseen misfortune happens. What that also means is that the guide has now obtained "liability insurance" just like the home owner has done to protect him self against any possible lawsuits. So I guess if you are concerned about being able to sue someone, than by all means use a guide who has liability insurance. What that also means is that the guide will most likely include these charges in the cost of his charter service.

Guide only buy insurance for their own protection, not for your protection! Let's not try to fool anyone into thinking that just because your guide has "insurance" that you will have a better or safer fishing trip. Word of mouth and good references is what I would use if I was to charter a guide. The insurance thing does not impress me, the CPR thing, and the first aid thing is a very close runner-up. What good is CPR or first aid going to do for you if it is the "guide" who gets hurt?

This is only my opinion, and I am sure that it will offend some of the guides who advertise this in their brochures. I just try to tell it the way that I see this issue.

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook???

Idaho does the whole "guide thing" a lot different than other states. First of all, you have to have a permit to be a "guide". Each river has only so many permits. These are bought and sold for large sums of money. As most "guiding" in this state is whitewater rafting type of stuff, the "guides" have to be certified. This involves X number of hours on the river with what is called a "master" boatman. This person has the ability to "sign you off".. This is a good thing as not just any yahoo can get in a boat and proclaim "guiding" is my profession. I do not know how Washington does things but I know that in Oregon, anybody can be a "guide" by simply proclaiming themselves as such. For example. In Idaho a "guide" may have a permit to run the Salmon river and nowhere else. But the same "guide" can also run trips on the Owhyee river in Oregon simply because they do not need a permit to do so.

It gets more complicated than that. You also need a permit to float many rivers as a privet party. Example, the middle fork of the Salmon river. They allow 3-4 launches a day for privet partys. There can be up to 24 persons in each party. Then, they allow so many comercial outfitters "or guides" to launch. What does this accomplish??? Well, every Tom and Dick can not show up and float so you are ensured a certain amount of solitude. Keep in mind that this particular float is 4-7 days long. So who gets the permits???? Well, thats done by a drawing just like a controlled hunt. You pick a day and put in for it. Lets use the Salmon again as an example. You have less than a 1 in 25 chance of drawing. Keep in mind that you are putting in for a certain day only. You get one shot at it. So many launches are set aside for out of state boaters. One river, the Selway, has only one launch a day. Talk about restrictions !!!! But there is a reason for this.. It keeps the river corridors clean and un-crowded. So whats any of this got to do with fishing???

A fishing guide has the same restrictions as a whitewater guide. He will have a permit to fish a section of a river. The number of permits never increases. He bought that permit and it could have cost him upwards of 100,000 dollars. Its his full time job, not a side thing he does to make extra cash. Most have several guides that work for them. However, during steelhead season there is no restictions on launch dates. For example, The Hells canyon section of the Snake river is a permit only float from June through August, Sept 1 anyone can get on it. Same with the Salmon river. The Clearwater river has no permit system for privet boaters, but does have only so many fishing guides because of the limited outfitter permits I explained.

I think this is a good thing. It keeps dorks from taking peoples money. The guides that are out there are well established, and I'm not saying none of them are dorks because some are, but they have a lot of money invested and that tends to keep them on the level. None of this here today gone tommorrow crap.

Forgot to mention... every single guide is bonded and insured. No exceptions. I would think that would have to be true anywhere, but I guess its not.