Oh and people suy that WSR is not the answer.

Its not the answer but just because its not the total fix should we just keep bonking all the nates we catch? If thats your philophisy you are wrong! It has to start somewhere and WSR will = more natives on the reds. That is the bottom line. We cant fix everything but we can choose to let the natives we catch spawn.

We have dreamed, and hoped, and overharvested for years.

Its time that we error on the resources side.

Nuff said by me ]

Jim

Boy, this discusionn grew over night!

First.the river that I was reffering to concerning the steelhead and silvers intermingling on is the Duc on the canal.The river realy only has 6 miles of stream that is traditionaly reached by andromonous fish.3 miles of this are locked up in a canyon that keeps fish out of the tribs and does not supply substrate.All the gravell comes into the canyon from up above.Basicly all the fish have to share the 5 or 6 spawning ereas.I have caught Cuttys salmon and steely all in the same reaches on the same day.I watch the the silvers and the steelhead sitting right along side of each other every year.Remember these are not natives but an old stock left over from the hatch.I canot say I have actualy seen the steel head spawn but the salmon many of times.I have caught fish that in my uneducated mind looked like mixed fish!?

This is far from scientific data but here goes.I have been off work since oct.I have been fishing the Duk and the dose 3 To 6 days a week.The dose has shown me 1 native steelhead and 7 silvers this year.The duk is has shown me six natives and my first ever hatch fish and untold silvers.The skoke Has given me 2 nates of size and 16 small steelhead like richg record female,2 to 3 pounders.I know that it is early for our nates and this year I plan to continue looking for fish after the season closes and add to this scenario that I am putting together.But remember I know these rivers top to bottem and have been fishing them for 10 years seriosly.

Now the state is putting hath steel into the duc and the dose 10,000 smolt at a time.The man that raises these fish and distributes these fish does not figure three of them make it back to the river.He does not even believe that out of the 50,000 that are put into the skoke any return.So what is the purpose?The rivers are catch and release for everything but hatch steelhead.No bait or hook restrictions just release everything that isn't a hatch steelhead.These hatch fish distribution is only governed by where the truck can get close enough to the road.So there is no controll on these hatch fish just dump and run.Is this a succesfull hatch program?So the state is basicly telling me that everything in that river is not healthy enough to sustain a harvest of anything but hatchery steelhead that are not realy there!???

I once again canot help but feel that POLITICS have more to do with deciding the rules on our rivers than either science or common sense.Both science and common sense say to close the canal down to fishing pierod.But I firmly believe that our state Knows that it killed the cannal.To close it down and to do what needs to be done would be to incriminating and send the wrong message to the public.So instead we will lie untill it is dead.The Msy is a noble effort but it does not work and with the Increasing number of people that are interested in our fish it is controlling the last few fish that we have and that should scare everybody.

LtCleo,

I dont think the state is solely responsible for the crash of the Hooh Cannal, after the Boldt Decision there was some very heavy netting going on at all of the rivermouths in the Cannal.

But I think you are right about the state never admitting that they have been wrong. They just slide their failures under the rug and then move on to the next system they can screw up. But if you ask about the ones that are dead they will say " Yes that system is depressed due to habitat distruction or polution", they will never say that over harvest played a role.

i agree with rich on releasing all natives, salmonids/stealhead/trout anything wild, but the hatchery runs are ok, genetics were taken from "wild" stock, but as a example from this last weekends outing, i have come to the conclusion that a wild stealhead will out fight a hatchery fish 100/1, i have never had a hatchery fish leave the water and 4 out 5 i hooked on saturday left the water, putting on a show..i have NEVER seen a hatchery do that, and i fish the b-run steelies over in idaho (on occasion) which attain a bigger size than most hatchery fish.. maybe its jus a opionin, or a educated observation..so then it would be in the best interest of the fish runs to only harvest hatchery.. **berkley boy**

Yup, lots of folks out in Forks were scratching their heads Saturday. One local guide had a good explanation - Aliens have obviously abducted the nates that should be in the rivers by now. Personally, I think it's obvious what's going on.
One word - Sasquatch.

The thing that scares me the most is that the tribe isnt getting them either from what ive heard. That means they just arnt comming or havent come yet but it is getting late with the conditions we have had and all. No reason why they havent showed.

You know I didnt whant to say it and dont have any proof to back this up but I truely thing that the system's steelhead runs are starting to crash from no other reason than over harvest. It only makes sense we had a great hatchery run due to perfect ocean conditions yet we are barely getting a native run at all. It was only a matter of time we have been abuseing this river system for decades and now it looks like man has taken its tole.

But we wont know for sure till this spring when spawning surveys are done. Too bad we dont do sonar counts so we could know the status of the run as it comes in.

Here's an example of the one fish we landed out of the SolDuc when we floated the top end. The river should be full of fish like this right now but they are not here. This is what we are looseing.

Cowlitzefisherman,

No I dont think it is wrong to kill wild fish that are the offspring of hatchery fish. But how do you tell the difference? I will resease all unmarked fish to error on the side of the native fish.

I kill hatchery fish and have killed both wild salmon and steelhead before I knew any better.

Kill wild steelhead and salmon if you whant to where it is legal its your right. But is it right? This is a question you have to answer in you own mind. To me it is not rigt to kill native salmon and steelhead and I will continue not too. But if you kill them where it is legal and someday they are gone you were part of the problem. And even those of us that do release wild fish that take every safeguard and treat the fish with the uptmost respect will aslo make an impact by killing a few fish. But we will kill far fewer fish then the ones that take advantage of their right to harvest native fish.

Rich,

Please do not attempt to brush off my posting and valid questions like this! You, and others, owe it to this board to answer the questions that I have put forth upon you.

This is one reason why so many new members are questioning the integrity of this board!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

I think everyone just needs to be patient, the fish will show.. I've seen it too many times thinking that the run wasn't going to show and they were just late. They're wild fish and will show accordingly to their schedule not the one we think they should follow.
Keith

I think you are right on that issue!

Cowlitzfisherman
is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

cowlitzfisherman,

How can you say that the Cowlitz system has no actual native steelhead and that all the wild fish in the system are from hatchery spawning in the wild. What about the Toutle system? What about all the untold small creeks that run into the Cowlitz. None of these rivers and streams have pure native stock?

What questions am I not answering? Please lett me know and I will answer them the best I can.

I think I have posted many times that I think wild Salmon are just as important as Steelhead. Without the salmon Steelhead dont exist. Salmon are the staple and life force of a river system. Everything is sustained off of their death. That is the only reason Alaska rivers have so much abundance.

Keith,

The wild run at one time started in early November out here. The peak of the run is definately early March but substantial numbers of fish have always come earlier. The run should have really started a few weeks ago with consistant numbers but it didnt. The last week of Jan- first week of Feb should always show the beginng of the real big bucks and a good number of hens. A few big bucks came but not many. By the first of march we should see all those big hens showing as well as a bunch of smaller 3 salt bucks and 2 salts. but If all those big bucks havent showed I am not expecting the rest are gonna show either.

Every cylce the run seems to come in a smaller time frame. Is the run just comeing all at one time with the same amount of fish as before or are we seeing that since there were not as many Dec, Jan , Feb fish as March/April fish and that the harvest has been heavier on the earlier returning fish that there are fewer left every year to sustain the next cycle.

Look at the Hoh it hasnt shown the same patern as the Quileute it still has good numbers Wild steelhead returning from Oct to May. Yet the Quileute system seems to only get consistent numbers of fish from Mid Feb till the third week of April. If you went back 20 years you would see that the Quileute had a run timeing similar to the Hoh. This year it seems as the run has even been pushed back even further if it really comes at all.

Thinking the run is late is wishfull thinking. It was late three weeks ago. Or if you look back even further its been getting later every cycle.

cf,
Where can I find some of these old records.I have been digging for a week or two but can't find anything?I am trying to learn about the hood canal erea?

I would think that it would be better to err on the side of caution and release an unmarked fish even if you think most of the unmarked are probably 'feral' hatchery fish.Does anyone know what other winter stocks were used on the Cowlitz besides Chambers Creek?

ltlCLEO,

Most likely you will have to go to the WDFW main office in Olympia. You will need to put in a Public Records Discloser Request and ask for a appointment to review ALL records that WDFW have pertaining to the specific area that you are looking for. I am afraid just asking to review all "Hood Canal" records would be an unlimited task for them. You might find out what you are looking for by contacting the area biologist and start with him before you place your Public Discloser Request. Sometimes the Biologist will get you all the information that you may be seeking without doing the request. Good luck and be prepared to do a lot of reading!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Bodysurf

Same advice to you as ItICLEO. You might find out what stocks have been introduced into the Cowlitz by contacting the area biologist or the complex manager for the Cowlitz Salmon and Trout Hatchery His name is Don Peterson (360-864-6135). I can't remember all of them, but there was a slug of them! They came from just about every major system up north. Start with him before you place your Public Discloser Request. Also you may very well be right about "it would be better to err on the side of caution and release an unmarked fish even if you think most of the unmarked are probably 'feral' hatchery fish"

We owe it to our fish to do our homework before we make any decisions and that is why I have debated this issue. You may or may not agree with what I have stated, but you are certainly more informed now then before. I hope that what I have posted will give you a better understanding of how many other anglers feel about c&r. Most of them are afraid to post their real opinions about this subject because of their lack of knowledge of this subject, and the HEAT that will most likely follow.

"Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Rich,

Sounds like I really got to you, I have found that facts will do that almost every time when someone is standing on weak grounds. My replies to you where generated from your own various statements that you made during this thread. It shouldn't be too hard for you to figure that one out.

The reason that I may have been "beating a dead horse" was because you have put yourself so darn high into that saddle. You got to admit, you made some pretty bold statements in your postings that you knew would draw some heat (no need to tell you which ones, because you already know).

Just a few more words about your above reply and I will let you ride off on that horse that you have gotten up onto. Obviously, you only care about one thing, and that is about pushing your own agenda for c&r. Your last statement spells that out clearly when you say "For one I don't give a **** about the Cowlitz it is already gone..." Well Rich that is exactly the kind of attitude that got the Cowlitz River where it is at today! So don't be too surprised when that same kind of attitude comes back to bite you on your OP rivers some day soon.

One last point; where in the hell did you get that I said "2 thirds of the steelhead fisherman are pro Catch and kill for native fish" on this thread? What I did say was; "there are twice as many fishermen out there that disagree with you!" So please don't take other statements that may have been used on other threads out of text just to attempt to put someone down. The last time I attended school, twice as many didn't mean "two thirds" as many!

I want to preserve the Cowlitz, but as long as there are people that feel the same way that you do, it's not likely happen, is it?

Last thing, when I started on this board 2 years ago I never saw any requirement that said this board was only for c&r. Where was that posted? It may be the trend now, but I sure don't remember that ever being posted as any kind of guide lines, do you? In fact, if my memory serves me right, I can remember some bb members were accusing Big Bob of bonking native steelhead. Didn't that happen, or am I mistaken that?

Enough said!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????