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#141462 - 02/19/02 04:26 AM Steelhead cloning
UltimateFeashKacher Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 10/24/01
Posts: 294
Loc: WA
What do you think? It maybe a future reality! Should we try it in a river with no native or wild steelhead?

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#141463 - 02/19/02 03:17 PM Re: Steelhead cloning
kore Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 462
Loc: Carson, WA
I think cloning is a possibility. If done successfully, Clones should be taken from eight or more different wild fish. Even though they are of the same genetic strain ,there will be slight genetic differences, that wouldn't lead to inbreeding problems, when the fish spawn in the future.
Inbreeding is what enventually results in genetic traits that aren't normally expressed, being expressed. Those are recessive genes. These recessive genes are expressed when two very similar genetic codes are combined that have the same two recessive genes.
An example of a recessive gene is hemophelia, inbreeding is why we have hemophelia, today. It goes back to inbreeding of the royal family in England, which allowed the normally unexpressed recessive gene of hemophelia to be expressed. It is why hatchery fish start out strong, when a new hatchery is started, but when the same stock is bred over and over, the stock weakens
So in order for a genetically healthy stock of fish, that doesn't weaken after several generations of spawning, The clones should be from a multiple of distinct wild fish.

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#141464 - 02/19/02 11:54 PM Re: Steelhead cloning
UltimateFeashKacher Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 10/24/01
Posts: 294
Loc: WA
KORE,
Good info. Would the hatchery fish be better if they use fish from different areas? Foe example use fish from different local rivers or AK, Canada, Russia, etc.

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#141465 - 02/20/02 12:28 AM Re: Steelhead cloning
kore Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 462
Loc: Carson, WA
No, I was just suggesting taking a varied genetic sample of a certain "wild" strain.
For example if you sampled a pure wild stock from several fish of that stock, you would find they are almost exactly the same, except for slight differences. These differences are what result in the survivability of the stock. Some of the strain might feed on slightly different things in the ocean, or pick different areas to spawn. Which during poorer feed populations in the ocean, or flood, or drought, would help at least the survivability of some.
I would be willing to bet that if you took a group of hatchery fish, that they would be very similiar, almost like brother, and sister, and lets say the combination of the too alike is not a good thing. Habits are very similiar. If an environmental conditions are unfavorable, it results in destruction in the main population, and as I stated in my previous post due to inbreeding, unfavorable genetic traits are produced.
I was suggesting getting a varied representative sample of the strain. This is what happening when brood stocking is performed like at the Sol Duc Snyder Creek hatchery.
On a "dead" river perhaps get a wide varied sample of wild stock from similar rivers, and hopefully the genetics necessary for that river are contained in that sample where natural process can take over. Though if environmental conditions led to the "dead" river, and they haven't been corrected. Even with the right strain the river will remain barren. Having the right stock isn't always the answer. Having the right nutrients, preventing over fishing, water temperature, good spawning areas, and other factors all play a role.

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#141466 - 02/20/02 12:36 AM Re: Steelhead cloning
h2o Offline
Carcass

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 2227
Loc: Portland
JUst because we can doesnt mean we should. Look at all the trouble we have gotten ourselves into already with overaggressive hatchery practices. Now you are suggesting seriously that the answer isn't just to manipulate the environment, its to manipulate the species?? This is dangerous, short sighted and irresponsible reasoning at best.
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"Christmas is an American holiday." - micropterus101

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#141467 - 02/20/02 12:49 AM Re: Steelhead cloning
kore Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 462
Loc: Carson, WA
I am not suggesting we do it, but it is a possibility. I never said manipulate, I suggested taking a varied sample of a stock. The reason why conventional hatcheries have failed in the past is they use one similiar strain, and keep inbreeding the heck out of it. What I was suggesting isn't any different from what goes on in current brood stocking programs. That is get a varied wild genetic strain of that river system, or in the "dead" river case, a similar river system. So to reiterate not manipulation, just diversity for the hatchery, and let natural process, like natural spawning take over.

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#141468 - 02/20/02 01:14 AM Re: Steelhead cloning
BILGERAT Offline
Parr

Registered: 12/22/01
Posts: 40
Loc: TROUTDALE OREGON
Why not make all hatchery fish sterile ?
Why not plant them in the estuary or lower ends of rivers to reduce impact on wild stocks ?
Past argument from Jack Donaldson and others was their concern over straying of hatchery fish if planted too low in a system.If both states do it who cares ? They will swim up someones river.
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#141469 - 02/20/02 01:56 AM Re: Steelhead cloning
h2o Offline
Carcass

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 2227
Loc: Portland
I would take the position that once human beings control "natural selection" manipulation has begun. We are currently manipulating the species, and as our bungled attempts at doing so have eroded the quality of the hatchery fish, their diminished gene pool, manipulated by man, has adversely affected the quality and genetic integrity of the native.

Is cloning possible?? The evidence clearly suggests that it is within the realm of possibility...

Its also possible that if I put one bullet in the chamber of a revolver, give it a good spin...
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"Christmas is an American holiday." - micropterus101

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#141470 - 02/20/02 02:41 AM Re: Steelhead cloning
kore Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 462
Loc: Carson, WA
I would argue that the natural selection occurs outside the hatchery. Man doesn't decide which smolt gets eaten by predators, which smolts learn to hide, etc. By taking a representative sample of an existing wild stock of a river, I don't see how this is manipulating natural selection. You could even rear the smolt in a pond complete with predators and cover, to help better emulate a natural senario. Don't continue to help the fish spawn after that, let them spawn naturally. And if they don't succeed, that is natural selection telling you something negative about the river, overfishing, strain etc.

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#141471 - 02/20/02 03:25 AM Re: Steelhead cloning
h2o Offline
Carcass

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 2227
Loc: Portland
Who is to say that our criteria for determining what is "representative" is not faulty?? I suppose you'll hit me with a bunch of statistical anlayses that state eight is the correct number for statistically significant representation, but I don't buy it.

Once WE decide what genes the fish should have WE have predetermined their destiny. I will restate that it is the arrogance of the human race, thinking we can just engineer our way out of our problems, what brought us to this dance in the first place...
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"Christmas is an American holiday." - micropterus101

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#141472 - 02/20/02 11:13 AM Re: Steelhead cloning
bodysurf Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 11/28/01
Posts: 324
Loc: olympia
That's an interesting idea...clone 30 pound steelhead and then make them sterile triploid fish. of course,they may not come back if they never mature but they'd get huge....

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#141473 - 02/20/02 12:55 PM Re: Steelhead cloning
kore Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/11/99
Posts: 462
Loc: Carson, WA
sthldh2o,

I agree it is the human race that has brought certain fisheries to a point, where hatchery intervention is considered.
You have brought up valid points, should we intervene? If a wild stock is in decline, then fix the causes of the decline. I don't disagree. I was just suggesting perhaps a better hatchery method for wild strain enhancement, if that is pursued. Other questions are; If hatcheries are utilized, are they to help the wild stock, or raise a completely different strain, for fisheries enhancement, and try to prevent wild, hatchery interactions. I was commmenting on a possible wild enhancement hatchery. One where a river may need a kick start. Strain selection etc. is man made decision, Though it might not be 100% correct, it would be closer to the true strain, then past methods. But I guess it comes down to the basic decision, should we intervene? You say no, I would argue in some cases it should be explored.

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#141474 - 02/20/02 04:07 PM Re: Steelhead cloning
h2o Offline
Carcass

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 2227
Loc: Portland
Excellent arguments Kore, I can't tell you how much I appreciate the exchange of ideas because it allows me to constantly reevaluate my positions. In this case I'm afraid I have left the impression that I am totally against the intervention of man as it pertains to wild steelhead. This is not the case at all, however I do think all solutions and their potential repercussions should be well researched BEFORE implementation. This has been the bane of our attempts at resolving the issue, too slow to act, too quick to react.
I still take the position that cloning of animal species is extremely new technology, the benefit of applying that technology before its repercussions are reasonably determinable is not known; therefore proceeding with a course of action would be irresponsible. The fact that the technology exists is reason alone to discuss it as a possiblity, this coupled with science is how we get to the point of 'reasonable determination'.

Thanks again Kore
_________________________
"Christmas is an American holiday." - micropterus101

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#141475 - 02/20/02 09:33 PM Re: Steelhead cloning
papafsh Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 05/08/01
Posts: 172
Loc: Everett, WA.
I believe hatcheries are a necessary component for sustainable fish populations,(I didn't say sustainable harvest!) simply as a result of the increased demand for the resource by all user groups.

There is no-way, a wild fish, ONLY, population could continue to exist in any river, unless ALL user groups were denied access to them, and ALL up-river spawning access barriers(dams)were removed.
And when you reduce user access in one place you increase demand on another.

How would a 7 day season on five rivers, with a season limit of 1, in the whole state be?, you could catch a fish but would it be worth it? Talk about economic disaster!

Speaking of "Clones" how much more alike do we need to make hatchery fish,anyway? seems like you hear the term "Typical Hatchery Brat" quite alot already.

What would the Sol Duc be without it's unique strain of hatchery raised fish?

The movement toward raising hatchery stock from fish within the same river system, is a very positive change.

I would like to see that become the SOP whenever possible, then hatchery fish spawning with non-hatchery fish would make very little, if any, difference.

When flooding or other natural, even man made disasters reduce naturally spawned eggs or smolt survival numbers, it is hatchery stock that can then compensate and keep a rivers fish populations from total decline.

Yes there are changes needed in the way we operate our hatcheries, but operate them we must!

cool

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#141476 - 02/20/02 09:43 PM Re: Steelhead cloning
Dave Jackson Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/18/01
Posts: 861
Loc: Milwaukie, OR
I would worry that if there wasn't enough of a variance in the number of different fish cloned that we would run into a sort of Chicken McNugget syndrome, where the fish would come in predictable body structures.

"How'd ya do today? Catch anything?"
"Yeah, I caught two #7's and a 4." confused
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