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#141566 - 02/20/02 12:05 AM TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Wishiniwasfishin Offline
Parr

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 66
Loc: Lake Stevens
Native: A fish that has an intact adipose fin?
Wild Fish: A fish that contains a genetic imprint specific to the river of it's origin?

Is there any such thing as a true wild fish on any of our rivers anymore?
And if there are no wild fish does it really matter as long as a strong return of fish exists?

Build more hatcheries. Bring in some eggs and milt from the Vedder, or Frasier, or Thompson.
It doesn't matter to me.

Do we get to catch the fish? You bet.
Does it promote the economy, from tackle to Guides? Sure does.
Does catching fish promote fishing for generations to come? Yea baby.

Clip 2/3 of the fins. Only BONK the ones with the missing fins. One day it will not matter.
You won't have t clip any. Just limit the total number of fish caught.

Let some spawn on their own it is all good.

All this C*** about protecting this fish and that fish.....Phoooooey!

Lets make more fish.......and catch them.

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#141567 - 02/20/02 12:35 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Skywalker Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/10/01
Posts: 578
Loc: Snohomish, WA, USA
First of all, you've got it backwards. Wild fish may have been spawned in the river, not the hatchery, but are not necessarily the native strain. They could be hatchery escapees, or the result of hatchery fish spawning in the river.

Hatchery/wild stocks spawn at a different time than the natives, so they don't (theoretically....this still gets debated) interbreed.

"All this C*** about protecting this fish and that fish.....Phoooooey!"

Have you never heard the stories of wild fish being wiped out because we though we were doing the right thing by introducing other species for our own recreation? We've done it in lakes and rivers both (seems to me there was a major screw up in one of the Montana lake/stream systems having to do with a sockeye run, but can't put my finger on it without some research).

I'm pretty clueless on the subject compared to some, and I'm sure you'll get some much more detailed responses than I can provide. You're definately going to hear from somebody. wink

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#141568 - 02/20/02 02:24 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
Well for one I completely disagree with you i say do whatever it takes to save the fish regardless of what it does to the fishery. I'd rather have closed rivers full of wild fish than no wild fish.

A wild fish is one that is born in the wild regardless of parentage. And a "native" is a fish that is of the genetic make up that is indigenous to that stream. ALL!!! of the research indicates that there are very few instances where hatchery fish spawning in the wild and having offspring that reach adulthood. Therefore nearly every "wild" steelhead is also a Native. There is really no such thing as a hatchery wild fish. They sinmply do not survive to adulthood.
Also genetic studies that have been done suggest that there was some inbreeding between hatchery and wild steelhead decades ago there has been no measurable genetic homoginization since then. In simple english this means that hatchery and wild stocks are no more closely related than they were 30 years ago. This means there has been very little inbreeding during that time.
The thought that somehow all steelhead are the same and there is no value to wild fish is absolutely proposterous and there is no scientific evidence to that end.
It should alsobe noted that both the captive rearing and wild broodstock ideas both have the same fundemental flaws as regular hatcheries.
That flaw is the selective breeding caused by the unnatural environment.

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#141569 - 02/20/02 03:15 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9159
Loc: everett
Suppose after St Helens blew her top and wiped out the steelhead run in the Toutle river , the run we have today was propigated by wandering hatchery fish , or a combo of hatch and wild. Whatis this run ? Wild? Nate? What is a native Skagit fish that spawns in the Sky?
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
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#141570 - 02/20/02 03:47 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Chromeo Offline
Spawner

Registered: 10/29/01
Posts: 561
Loc: Kenmore, WA
Jerry:

Strait from STS December-Janyary Issue:

Stray Fish: A stray fish Returnes to spawn in a different river than he or she was relased in, or hatched from. Most rivers contain a certian ammount of strays in their runs, but the percentage ofstrays stays low.

So I would say it would be a native stray. confused

I also have a question. The river I fish dosent clip that many hatchery fish. You can see all of the non-clipped fish in the hatchery pond. I know you can tell these apart from hatchery fish by looking to see if theyre fin rays are crooked, but do you still have to treat them as wild fish or can you keep them?

Also is there any way to tell a true nate from a wild fish?

Thanks
Tyler
_________________________
All Americans believe that they are born Fishermen. For a man to admit a distaste for fishing would be like denouncing mother-love and hating moonlight. -John Steinbeck

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#141571 - 02/20/02 05:01 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
Jerry Mt St. Helens errupting did not wipe out the Toutle river steelhead. Toutle river Steelhead are typical southwest Washington steelhead Most spawn not in the main stem but in tributaries. When the mountain blew all the steelhead were spawning or had already spawned and were not effected by the blast. That is why the South Toutle recovered so quickly and so well. It was only after WDFW resumed a kill fishery and started planting Skamania summer runs that the run went to hell. The Toutle is the perfect example of WDFW mismanagement of our fisheries resources.

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#141572 - 02/20/02 07:30 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
cowlitzfisherman Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/14/00
Posts: 1866
Loc: Toledo, Washington
Here we go again!!!!

RK,
maybe this will give you "another point of view" about your question!

Didn't we just go through this issue in another thread? A statement was made that isn't really completely true, even those they may want it to be!! It was just stated; "ALL!!! of the research indicates that there are very few instances where hatchery fish spawning in the wild and having offspring that reach adulthood".

That isn't what the most current research and science is indicating is happening on the Cowlitz (as much as every body has already kissed off the Cowlitz). The Cowlitz River may very well be the biggest "scientific steelhead experiment" in Washington state! Again let me express, we are talking Cowlitz here, but the results can be and most likely will be apply to other rivers systems when the "final" results are in (about another 5-10 more years left). Most managers and biologists think that it will take about 18-20 years total, before all the data results can be fully analyzed. So we'll just have to wait for the final word, but in the mean time let's discuss what has happen so far.

Maybe even Salmo G will stick his neck out and bring the bb up to date on the newest results of the most current "experiment" in our reintroduction of "hatchery" steelhead to the Cowlitz. And believe me, Salmo is a real die-hard wild fish advocate kind of guy and he knows what happening as far as reintroduction is concerned!

On the Cowlitz, only "hatchery" late stocks of steelhead were used for the upper Cowlitz reintroduction "experiment". They started the introduction experiment with "hatchery" fed fry back around 1994. The new Cowlitz Falls fish collecting faculties was supposed to collect all the smolts but the facilities did not even come close to what was expected. They had less than 40% collection for steelhead smolts. If you remember the Cowlitz River experienced two extremely damaging floods in both 1995 and 1996. Just about every fish that was planted in the upper Cowlitz was washed down into Riffe Lake. That was the end of any fry or smolts survival for the next couple of years.

Since that time, some improvements have been made to the Cowlitz Falls trapping facilities and more smolts have pasted down stream each year since. Remember now, these are all "dumb hatchery" fish that have gone through all this "hell".

Well, it started out slow with only about 3 "wild" fish returning in 1998. In 1999, 122 "wild fish" returned. In 2000, 388 "wild" fish returned. And 2000, the count jumped to 692 "wild" fish, and it looks like we set another record when this years count is over. So don't base everything on old scientific studies and data to support one own views until all the newer studies are completed. All this was done in a water shed that was almost completely barren of any natural nutrients (i.e. no fish carcasses). It also shows that they do "survive to adult hood".

So the "experiment" goes on and statements like; "It should also be noted that both the captive rearing and wild broodstock ideas both have the same fundemental flaws as regular hatcheries. That flaw is the selective breeding caused by the unnatural environment" certainly do not represent what the science is indicating is happening on the Cowlitz. It will be very interesting to see what the final science will tell us about this.

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????
_________________________
Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

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#141573 - 02/20/02 08:25 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Wishiniwasfishin Offline
Parr

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 66
Loc: Lake Stevens
Cowlitzfisherman

I agree with you, and what is going on down on the Cowlitz. The Cowlitz supports an awsome
fishery. Many other rivers in the state could do the same. The fantastic runs of summer and winter fish returning to both Blue Creek and Barrier is really ecouraging.

Some believe saving the last WILD/NATIVE fish is all that matters. That is where our paths split.
I fish, because I love to catch and BONK fish. The more I can BONK the better. They never go to waste. It is also my belief that hatcheries give me more fish to BONK.

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#141574 - 02/20/02 08:38 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 16220
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Bob,

VERY intersting stuff. Science that isn't continually challenged is bound to be flawed, especially when studying something as complex, and with so many variable, as fish life cycles. Thinking "in the box" is what led us down a path whose final destination is where we are now.

Please keep us up-to-date on what's happening down there, since you stay so well informed as to what the latest numbers are.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

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#141575 - 02/21/02 01:54 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
Cowlitzfisherman

Do you have any more information on this project? All I could find online is that the project is underway. There is very little about their methods and processes. Most wild steelhead stocks do not have 20-30 years to wait at least not here in SW Washington. If they are planting hatchery fish having thoes fish return to spawn and inturn making juveniles that live to adulthood and successfully reproduce themselves, then they are doing something no other hatchery in Washington has been able to do.

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#141576 - 02/21/02 07:40 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
hawk Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 592
Loc: austin, Minnesota, USA
Hey Jerry:

A Native Skagit fish that spawns in any other river is called a "Robbo". Scientific name is
_________________________
The best way to be succesful in life is to keep the people who hate you away from the people who are undecided

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#141577 - 02/21/02 01:23 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
cowlitzfisherman Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/14/00
Posts: 1866
Loc: Toledo, Washington
Robert Allen3

There isn't very much public information available and other then a hand full of people that have stuck it out since its conception, no one except a handful of people knows of its success. There are a few key WDFW people, like Lee Van Trussenbrook from the region 5 office that was a player when the program first started out. Salmo G is another one who has vast knowledge of it and has also been an important player for many years now. A few key members from the Friends of the Cowlitz (FOC) also have vast knowledge of the restoration project. I have been fully involved with it since its conception (almost 10 years now) because of my early involvement with the FOC. I am a past president of that organization. Mike Khon is the BPA / LCPUD Project Biologist also has vast knowledge of the Cowlitz Falls collection facilities.

Also WDFW biologist Dan Rawding (one of WDFW's top wild steelhead expert and biologist) was also involved in the original fry planting program (I believe Dan was the one who also started the recovery program for the wild steelhead in the Toutle). The Cowlitz River recovery project was funded by BPA as part of a settlement agreement between BPA and FOC. At the time the project stated, we had two different fishery agencies (WDW & WDF) and there was lots of "turf" problems about what stocks of what species would be used for the reintroduction "experiment".

To this day, only a few of WDFW field staff have been sincere in making the recovery "experiment" a success. There has been way to much influence from the "old WDF & WDW blood lines" that didn't want the experiment to succeed because "they" were, and still are concern that the hatchery production programs may be "cut back" if this "experiment" is truly successful. What a shame, because we could have both of them!!!

Just ask Salmo G, he can tell you that even today, the production success of these "hatchery" fish are being held back because both Tacoma Power and BPA are fighting over who is going to pay for the new needed trapping and collecting improvements at the Cowlitz Fall collection facilities. It is a simple proven scientific fact, the more of these naturally raised fish that they collect and pass down below the dams, the more higher the retunr percentage rates will be for adults. One only has to see what has happened in the last 3 years to see what the trend already is.

The key and future success to our recovery program of producing quality "wild returning adults" is directly related to doing the needed improvements at the collection facilities at Cowlitz Falls, or installing all new ones in the head waters of Riffe Lake. The Upper Cowlitz River could be the landmark for recovering wild fish if it wasn't for the internal fighting between BPA and Tacoma Power. I hope that this will give you some of the information that you need. Wild fish can recover ,all it just takes is people who really care and MONEY, LOT'S OF MONEY!!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????
_________________________
Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

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#141578 - 02/21/02 01:41 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
POS Clerk Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 113
Loc: Oregon

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#141579 - 02/21/02 02:05 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
Cowlitzfisherman Just so you know where I am coming from, it is my opinion that the only way an experiment can be deemed a success is that at the end planting fish is no longer necessary. meaning that the fish from thoes plants are reproducing well enough to sustain a run that seeds the avaliable habitat.
For instance I would not say that the Umatilla river project has been a success as a restoration program. It provides plenty of fish for harvest but they have not restored anything except that increased water flows in the summer has been good for wild steelhead.
What concerns me is that someone will get the idea that just planting more fish equals restoration. There are already a lot of organizations pushing for that kind of managment, ehich is the same kind of management we have had since the first hatchery went in.
I am terrified by any project that does not have at it's core the preservation of exsisting stocks of wild steelhead. I understand that wild fish have not been allowed past the dams since they have been built but that is rare most streams do not have such barriers therefore what is done on the Cowlitz with hatchery stocks should not be attempted in other areas. In other words I would strongly oppose any plan to use hatchery stocks to restore a run of fish where there already exsists even a remnant of a native run.

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#141580 - 02/21/02 03:54 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
icechopper Offline
Fry

Registered: 01/24/02
Posts: 39
Loc: Lacey, Wash.
When it comes to native fish who has the correct definition of this creature. We all have our requirements of the basic elements required but unfortunately all of this may or may not be in sequence with the next native fishery expert on the street. This one completely lost the OSDF&W several years ago and they nearly wiped out every steelhead in the system due to that issue. Only in the last couple of years have the steelhead started back due to this mess. My point is when this issue comes down it will depend on how much funding is available and for what fishery.
_________________________
Daniel Dunkin

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#141581 - 02/21/02 04:31 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
cowlitzfisherman Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/14/00
Posts: 1866
Loc: Toledo, Washington
POS Clerk

My personal definition of what a "scientific fact" means, would be something that has been openly and fully studied by persons who have the ability and expertise to do such studies. The study can vary depending on what one is looking for. The "facts" of a "scientific study" are the ground work that the science is to be based on and only facts are used for the foundation of the study. The facts would then be reviewed by experts within the field of which the study was done to see if all factors were considered. Then a summary of best know facts would result in a "finding" of science. Science in itself is always open for change, especially when new information or new "facts" are found.

"Scientific facts" may change upon new knowledge of new facts. I wish I knew a lot more fancier words to use, but I don't! Sometimes we complicate things way more then they really need to be. When I used that term in my posting it was directly related to the science that is used by WDFW, and others when projecting smolt to adult survival rates.

There is a science that is used by WDFW to extrapolate the number of retuning adults that directly relate to the number of healthy smolts that have left a healthy system.

As far has answering you question about my understanding of the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) and how it could influence the total of adult spawners returning to this system. Well, I have to plead to be ignorant on that one. I don't even know what that process is. Maybe you can enlighten me and most likely a few others, and then I can give you a better more intelligent answer! Salmo G has all those answers! He gets paid to know them (I thing)! He will let me know if I am wronge.

You got to remember, I am not a biologist, am just a retired old fishing guide who has spent the last 16 years of his life trying to restore the fish runs on the Cowlitz. I by no means know what all the "technical terms" are or mean, but I do know what's happening on the Cowlitz. Hopes that answers your questions.

____________________________________________________________________________

Robert Allen3

I tend to agree with you in the most part. But when you have nothing left to try, what's the harm in using a hatchery fish that has been in that system and surviving for many years and cycles?

What's good for the Cowlitz certainly would not be good for all the other river systems, but it can work on some of them. It just depends on the river and its history.

Anyway, that's just my personal experience and opinion!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????
_________________________
Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

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#141582 - 02/21/02 09:22 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Wishiniwasfishin Offline
Parr

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 66
Loc: Lake Stevens
It seems some of you have missed my point.

I like to fish, catch, bonk, and eat steelhead and salmon.

There is a lot more economic stimulus in creating a large run of hatchery fish for people to catch
than spending a lot of money trying to restore something that is already gone. No matter how NOBLE the cause may be.

I there are fish swimming in the river, and there is no one there to catch them, are there really any fish at all?

It is time we moved on, and understand that we have done things to our rivers that can not be undone.

Hatcheries produce a lot of BONKABLE fish. If some of those fish turn into natural/wild spawners, so much the better.

Lets put a hatchery on every sizable tributary in each major river system. Sure some can go upstream to spawn naturaly. Thats OK. Just think of all of the fish we could BONK!

I will go out on a limb to say that a majority of the sportsmen on the river want to BONK fish. And they spend a lot of money in the pursuit of fish to BONK. That is good for everybody.

We should not be pushed in a direction we do not want to go by the minority.

If the animal rights groups had there way the rivers would have nothing but WILD/NATIVE fish, no hatcheries, and NO ONE WOULD BE FISHING!!!

After many hours of contemplation I have decided to change my handle to SIRBONKSALOT.

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#141583 - 02/21/02 09:54 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Wild Chrome Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/14/01
Posts: 646
Loc: The Tailout
You're entitled to your opinion. Your first comment in this thread shows that you know little about the science behind the issue, which is critical to deciding how to manage the fish. Personally, my family, friends and coworkers couldn't eat all the fish I catch, so what would be the point of bonking them all? Also, wild steelhead are a heck of a lot more aggressive and better fighting in most rivers than brats. I'd like to see more of them. I personally try to fish rivers with good wild (native) runs when I can. To me, hatchery steelhead are almost a different species, inferior in regards to sport. Sometimes they're hot, most times they're not. With wild steelhead, it's the reverse. If I wanted to eat lots of fish, I'd save time and money by buying them at the store. That's my opinion.

Real salmon and steelhead are born in rivers!
_________________________
If every fisherman would pick up one piece of trash, we'd have cleaner rivers and more access.

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#141584 - 02/21/02 10:48 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
RK I could not disagree with you more. Most anglers do wanna bonk fish but most anglers also know that there are already plenty of fih avaliable for bonking all year long!

It is also my opinion that what most anglers want is irrelevant. ESA requires the saving of wild salmonids, part of that is hatchery processes that do less damage to wild runs.
It's certainly obvious that WDFW doesn't care what most anglers want anyway otherwise they would have passed WSR statewide without exception. WHich most anglers want!

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#141585 - 02/22/02 12:23 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
BossMan Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 09/20/01
Posts: 374
Loc: Seattle
RK, Who is going to pay for all these Hatcheries on every tributary? It seems the WDFW can't afford the hatcheries we already have.

Wouldn't it be nice if we had some magical fish that would reproduce naturally without having to pay for a hatchery...Wait a minute we do.. its called a wild fish.

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