Check

 

Defiance Boats!

LURECHARGE!

THE PP OUTDOOR FORUMS

Kast Gear!

Power Pro Shimano Reels G Loomis Rods

  Willie boats! Puffballs!

 

Three Rivers Marine

 

 
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#141566 - 02/20/02 12:05 AM TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Wishiniwasfishin Offline
Parr

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 66
Loc: Lake Stevens
Native: A fish that has an intact adipose fin?
Wild Fish: A fish that contains a genetic imprint specific to the river of it's origin?

Is there any such thing as a true wild fish on any of our rivers anymore?
And if there are no wild fish does it really matter as long as a strong return of fish exists?

Build more hatcheries. Bring in some eggs and milt from the Vedder, or Frasier, or Thompson.
It doesn't matter to me.

Do we get to catch the fish? You bet.
Does it promote the economy, from tackle to Guides? Sure does.
Does catching fish promote fishing for generations to come? Yea baby.

Clip 2/3 of the fins. Only BONK the ones with the missing fins. One day it will not matter.
You won't have t clip any. Just limit the total number of fish caught.

Let some spawn on their own it is all good.

All this C*** about protecting this fish and that fish.....Phoooooey!

Lets make more fish.......and catch them.

Top
#141567 - 02/20/02 12:35 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Skywalker Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/10/01
Posts: 578
Loc: Snohomish, WA, USA
First of all, you've got it backwards. Wild fish may have been spawned in the river, not the hatchery, but are not necessarily the native strain. They could be hatchery escapees, or the result of hatchery fish spawning in the river.

Hatchery/wild stocks spawn at a different time than the natives, so they don't (theoretically....this still gets debated) interbreed.

"All this C*** about protecting this fish and that fish.....Phoooooey!"

Have you never heard the stories of wild fish being wiped out because we though we were doing the right thing by introducing other species for our own recreation? We've done it in lakes and rivers both (seems to me there was a major screw up in one of the Montana lake/stream systems having to do with a sockeye run, but can't put my finger on it without some research).

I'm pretty clueless on the subject compared to some, and I'm sure you'll get some much more detailed responses than I can provide. You're definately going to hear from somebody. wink

Top
#141568 - 02/20/02 02:24 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
Well for one I completely disagree with you i say do whatever it takes to save the fish regardless of what it does to the fishery. I'd rather have closed rivers full of wild fish than no wild fish.

A wild fish is one that is born in the wild regardless of parentage. And a "native" is a fish that is of the genetic make up that is indigenous to that stream. ALL!!! of the research indicates that there are very few instances where hatchery fish spawning in the wild and having offspring that reach adulthood. Therefore nearly every "wild" steelhead is also a Native. There is really no such thing as a hatchery wild fish. They sinmply do not survive to adulthood.
Also genetic studies that have been done suggest that there was some inbreeding between hatchery and wild steelhead decades ago there has been no measurable genetic homoginization since then. In simple english this means that hatchery and wild stocks are no more closely related than they were 30 years ago. This means there has been very little inbreeding during that time.
The thought that somehow all steelhead are the same and there is no value to wild fish is absolutely proposterous and there is no scientific evidence to that end.
It should alsobe noted that both the captive rearing and wild broodstock ideas both have the same fundemental flaws as regular hatcheries.
That flaw is the selective breeding caused by the unnatural environment.

Top
#141569 - 02/20/02 03:15 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9159
Loc: everett
Suppose after St Helens blew her top and wiped out the steelhead run in the Toutle river , the run we have today was propigated by wandering hatchery fish , or a combo of hatch and wild. Whatis this run ? Wild? Nate? What is a native Skagit fish that spawns in the Sky?
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

Top
#141570 - 02/20/02 03:47 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Chromeo Offline
Spawner

Registered: 10/29/01
Posts: 561
Loc: Kenmore, WA
Jerry:

Strait from STS December-Janyary Issue:

Stray Fish: A stray fish Returnes to spawn in a different river than he or she was relased in, or hatched from. Most rivers contain a certian ammount of strays in their runs, but the percentage ofstrays stays low.

So I would say it would be a native stray. confused

I also have a question. The river I fish dosent clip that many hatchery fish. You can see all of the non-clipped fish in the hatchery pond. I know you can tell these apart from hatchery fish by looking to see if theyre fin rays are crooked, but do you still have to treat them as wild fish or can you keep them?

Also is there any way to tell a true nate from a wild fish?

Thanks
Tyler
_________________________
All Americans believe that they are born Fishermen. For a man to admit a distaste for fishing would be like denouncing mother-love and hating moonlight. -John Steinbeck

Top
#141571 - 02/20/02 05:01 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
Jerry Mt St. Helens errupting did not wipe out the Toutle river steelhead. Toutle river Steelhead are typical southwest Washington steelhead Most spawn not in the main stem but in tributaries. When the mountain blew all the steelhead were spawning or had already spawned and were not effected by the blast. That is why the South Toutle recovered so quickly and so well. It was only after WDFW resumed a kill fishery and started planting Skamania summer runs that the run went to hell. The Toutle is the perfect example of WDFW mismanagement of our fisheries resources.

Top
#141572 - 02/20/02 07:30 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
cowlitzfisherman Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/14/00
Posts: 1866
Loc: Toledo, Washington
Here we go again!!!!

RK,
maybe this will give you "another point of view" about your question!

Didn't we just go through this issue in another thread? A statement was made that isn't really completely true, even those they may want it to be!! It was just stated; "ALL!!! of the research indicates that there are very few instances where hatchery fish spawning in the wild and having offspring that reach adulthood".

That isn't what the most current research and science is indicating is happening on the Cowlitz (as much as every body has already kissed off the Cowlitz). The Cowlitz River may very well be the biggest "scientific steelhead experiment" in Washington state! Again let me express, we are talking Cowlitz here, but the results can be and most likely will be apply to other rivers systems when the "final" results are in (about another 5-10 more years left). Most managers and biologists think that it will take about 18-20 years total, before all the data results can be fully analyzed. So we'll just have to wait for the final word, but in the mean time let's discuss what has happen so far.

Maybe even Salmo G will stick his neck out and bring the bb up to date on the newest results of the most current "experiment" in our reintroduction of "hatchery" steelhead to the Cowlitz. And believe me, Salmo is a real die-hard wild fish advocate kind of guy and he knows what happening as far as reintroduction is concerned!

On the Cowlitz, only "hatchery" late stocks of steelhead were used for the upper Cowlitz reintroduction "experiment". They started the introduction experiment with "hatchery" fed fry back around 1994. The new Cowlitz Falls fish collecting faculties was supposed to collect all the smolts but the facilities did not even come close to what was expected. They had less than 40% collection for steelhead smolts. If you remember the Cowlitz River experienced two extremely damaging floods in both 1995 and 1996. Just about every fish that was planted in the upper Cowlitz was washed down into Riffe Lake. That was the end of any fry or smolts survival for the next couple of years.

Since that time, some improvements have been made to the Cowlitz Falls trapping facilities and more smolts have pasted down stream each year since. Remember now, these are all "dumb hatchery" fish that have gone through all this "hell".

Well, it started out slow with only about 3 "wild" fish returning in 1998. In 1999, 122 "wild fish" returned. In 2000, 388 "wild" fish returned. And 2000, the count jumped to 692 "wild" fish, and it looks like we set another record when this years count is over. So don't base everything on old scientific studies and data to support one own views until all the newer studies are completed. All this was done in a water shed that was almost completely barren of any natural nutrients (i.e. no fish carcasses). It also shows that they do "survive to adult hood".

So the "experiment" goes on and statements like; "It should also be noted that both the captive rearing and wild broodstock ideas both have the same fundemental flaws as regular hatcheries. That flaw is the selective breeding caused by the unnatural environment" certainly do not represent what the science is indicating is happening on the Cowlitz. It will be very interesting to see what the final science will tell us about this.

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????
_________________________
Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Top
#141573 - 02/20/02 08:25 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Wishiniwasfishin Offline
Parr

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 66
Loc: Lake Stevens
Cowlitzfisherman

I agree with you, and what is going on down on the Cowlitz. The Cowlitz supports an awsome
fishery. Many other rivers in the state could do the same. The fantastic runs of summer and winter fish returning to both Blue Creek and Barrier is really ecouraging.

Some believe saving the last WILD/NATIVE fish is all that matters. That is where our paths split.
I fish, because I love to catch and BONK fish. The more I can BONK the better. They never go to waste. It is also my belief that hatcheries give me more fish to BONK.

Top
#141574 - 02/20/02 08:38 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 15582
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Bob,

VERY intersting stuff. Science that isn't continually challenged is bound to be flawed, especially when studying something as complex, and with so many variable, as fish life cycles. Thinking "in the box" is what led us down a path whose final destination is where we are now.

Please keep us up-to-date on what's happening down there, since you stay so well informed as to what the latest numbers are.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

Top
#141575 - 02/21/02 01:54 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
Cowlitzfisherman

Do you have any more information on this project? All I could find online is that the project is underway. There is very little about their methods and processes. Most wild steelhead stocks do not have 20-30 years to wait at least not here in SW Washington. If they are planting hatchery fish having thoes fish return to spawn and inturn making juveniles that live to adulthood and successfully reproduce themselves, then they are doing something no other hatchery in Washington has been able to do.

Top
#141576 - 02/21/02 07:40 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
hawk Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 592
Loc: austin, Minnesota, USA
Hey Jerry:

A Native Skagit fish that spawns in any other river is called a "Robbo". Scientific name is
_________________________
The best way to be succesful in life is to keep the people who hate you away from the people who are undecided

Top
#141577 - 02/21/02 01:23 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
cowlitzfisherman Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/14/00
Posts: 1866
Loc: Toledo, Washington
Robert Allen3

There isn't very much public information available and other then a hand full of people that have stuck it out since its conception, no one except a handful of people knows of its success. There are a few key WDFW people, like Lee Van Trussenbrook from the region 5 office that was a player when the program first started out. Salmo G is another one who has vast knowledge of it and has also been an important player for many years now. A few key members from the Friends of the Cowlitz (FOC) also have vast knowledge of the restoration project. I have been fully involved with it since its conception (almost 10 years now) because of my early involvement with the FOC. I am a past president of that organization. Mike Khon is the BPA / LCPUD Project Biologist also has vast knowledge of the Cowlitz Falls collection facilities.

Also WDFW biologist Dan Rawding (one of WDFW's top wild steelhead expert and biologist) was also involved in the original fry planting program (I believe Dan was the one who also started the recovery program for the wild steelhead in the Toutle). The Cowlitz River recovery project was funded by BPA as part of a settlement agreement between BPA and FOC. At the time the project stated, we had two different fishery agencies (WDW & WDF) and there was lots of "turf" problems about what stocks of what species would be used for the reintroduction "experiment".

To this day, only a few of WDFW field staff have been sincere in making the recovery "experiment" a success. There has been way to much influence from the "old WDF & WDW blood lines" that didn't want the experiment to succeed because "they" were, and still are concern that the hatchery production programs may be "cut back" if this "experiment" is truly successful. What a shame, because we could have both of them!!!

Just ask Salmo G, he can tell you that even today, the production success of these "hatchery" fish are being held back because both Tacoma Power and BPA are fighting over who is going to pay for the new needed trapping and collecting improvements at the Cowlitz Fall collection facilities. It is a simple proven scientific fact, the more of these naturally raised fish that they collect and pass down below the dams, the more higher the retunr percentage rates will be for adults. One only has to see what has happened in the last 3 years to see what the trend already is.

The key and future success to our recovery program of producing quality "wild returning adults" is directly related to doing the needed improvements at the collection facilities at Cowlitz Falls, or installing all new ones in the head waters of Riffe Lake. The Upper Cowlitz River could be the landmark for recovering wild fish if it wasn't for the internal fighting between BPA and Tacoma Power. I hope that this will give you some of the information that you need. Wild fish can recover ,all it just takes is people who really care and MONEY, LOT'S OF MONEY!!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????
_________________________
Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Top
#141578 - 02/21/02 01:41 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
POS Clerk Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 113
Loc: Oregon

Top
#141579 - 02/21/02 02:05 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
Cowlitzfisherman Just so you know where I am coming from, it is my opinion that the only way an experiment can be deemed a success is that at the end planting fish is no longer necessary. meaning that the fish from thoes plants are reproducing well enough to sustain a run that seeds the avaliable habitat.
For instance I would not say that the Umatilla river project has been a success as a restoration program. It provides plenty of fish for harvest but they have not restored anything except that increased water flows in the summer has been good for wild steelhead.
What concerns me is that someone will get the idea that just planting more fish equals restoration. There are already a lot of organizations pushing for that kind of managment, ehich is the same kind of management we have had since the first hatchery went in.
I am terrified by any project that does not have at it's core the preservation of exsisting stocks of wild steelhead. I understand that wild fish have not been allowed past the dams since they have been built but that is rare most streams do not have such barriers therefore what is done on the Cowlitz with hatchery stocks should not be attempted in other areas. In other words I would strongly oppose any plan to use hatchery stocks to restore a run of fish where there already exsists even a remnant of a native run.

Top
#141580 - 02/21/02 03:54 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
icechopper Offline
Fry

Registered: 01/24/02
Posts: 39
Loc: Lacey, Wash.
When it comes to native fish who has the correct definition of this creature. We all have our requirements of the basic elements required but unfortunately all of this may or may not be in sequence with the next native fishery expert on the street. This one completely lost the OSDF&W several years ago and they nearly wiped out every steelhead in the system due to that issue. Only in the last couple of years have the steelhead started back due to this mess. My point is when this issue comes down it will depend on how much funding is available and for what fishery.
_________________________
Daniel Dunkin

Top
#141581 - 02/21/02 04:31 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
cowlitzfisherman Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/14/00
Posts: 1866
Loc: Toledo, Washington
POS Clerk

My personal definition of what a "scientific fact" means, would be something that has been openly and fully studied by persons who have the ability and expertise to do such studies. The study can vary depending on what one is looking for. The "facts" of a "scientific study" are the ground work that the science is to be based on and only facts are used for the foundation of the study. The facts would then be reviewed by experts within the field of which the study was done to see if all factors were considered. Then a summary of best know facts would result in a "finding" of science. Science in itself is always open for change, especially when new information or new "facts" are found.

"Scientific facts" may change upon new knowledge of new facts. I wish I knew a lot more fancier words to use, but I don't! Sometimes we complicate things way more then they really need to be. When I used that term in my posting it was directly related to the science that is used by WDFW, and others when projecting smolt to adult survival rates.

There is a science that is used by WDFW to extrapolate the number of retuning adults that directly relate to the number of healthy smolts that have left a healthy system.

As far has answering you question about my understanding of the Pacific Decadal Oscillation (PDO) and how it could influence the total of adult spawners returning to this system. Well, I have to plead to be ignorant on that one. I don't even know what that process is. Maybe you can enlighten me and most likely a few others, and then I can give you a better more intelligent answer! Salmo G has all those answers! He gets paid to know them (I thing)! He will let me know if I am wronge.

You got to remember, I am not a biologist, am just a retired old fishing guide who has spent the last 16 years of his life trying to restore the fish runs on the Cowlitz. I by no means know what all the "technical terms" are or mean, but I do know what's happening on the Cowlitz. Hopes that answers your questions.

____________________________________________________________________________

Robert Allen3

I tend to agree with you in the most part. But when you have nothing left to try, what's the harm in using a hatchery fish that has been in that system and surviving for many years and cycles?

What's good for the Cowlitz certainly would not be good for all the other river systems, but it can work on some of them. It just depends on the river and its history.

Anyway, that's just my personal experience and opinion!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????
_________________________
Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Top
#141582 - 02/21/02 09:22 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Wishiniwasfishin Offline
Parr

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 66
Loc: Lake Stevens
It seems some of you have missed my point.

I like to fish, catch, bonk, and eat steelhead and salmon.

There is a lot more economic stimulus in creating a large run of hatchery fish for people to catch
than spending a lot of money trying to restore something that is already gone. No matter how NOBLE the cause may be.

I there are fish swimming in the river, and there is no one there to catch them, are there really any fish at all?

It is time we moved on, and understand that we have done things to our rivers that can not be undone.

Hatcheries produce a lot of BONKABLE fish. If some of those fish turn into natural/wild spawners, so much the better.

Lets put a hatchery on every sizable tributary in each major river system. Sure some can go upstream to spawn naturaly. Thats OK. Just think of all of the fish we could BONK!

I will go out on a limb to say that a majority of the sportsmen on the river want to BONK fish. And they spend a lot of money in the pursuit of fish to BONK. That is good for everybody.

We should not be pushed in a direction we do not want to go by the minority.

If the animal rights groups had there way the rivers would have nothing but WILD/NATIVE fish, no hatcheries, and NO ONE WOULD BE FISHING!!!

After many hours of contemplation I have decided to change my handle to SIRBONKSALOT.

Top
#141583 - 02/21/02 09:54 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Wild Chrome Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/14/01
Posts: 646
Loc: The Tailout
You're entitled to your opinion. Your first comment in this thread shows that you know little about the science behind the issue, which is critical to deciding how to manage the fish. Personally, my family, friends and coworkers couldn't eat all the fish I catch, so what would be the point of bonking them all? Also, wild steelhead are a heck of a lot more aggressive and better fighting in most rivers than brats. I'd like to see more of them. I personally try to fish rivers with good wild (native) runs when I can. To me, hatchery steelhead are almost a different species, inferior in regards to sport. Sometimes they're hot, most times they're not. With wild steelhead, it's the reverse. If I wanted to eat lots of fish, I'd save time and money by buying them at the store. That's my opinion.

Real salmon and steelhead are born in rivers!
_________________________
If every fisherman would pick up one piece of trash, we'd have cleaner rivers and more access.

Top
#141584 - 02/21/02 10:48 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
RK I could not disagree with you more. Most anglers do wanna bonk fish but most anglers also know that there are already plenty of fih avaliable for bonking all year long!

It is also my opinion that what most anglers want is irrelevant. ESA requires the saving of wild salmonids, part of that is hatchery processes that do less damage to wild runs.
It's certainly obvious that WDFW doesn't care what most anglers want anyway otherwise they would have passed WSR statewide without exception. WHich most anglers want!

Top
#141585 - 02/22/02 12:23 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
BossMan Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 09/20/01
Posts: 373
Loc: Seattle
RK, Who is going to pay for all these Hatcheries on every tributary? It seems the WDFW can't afford the hatcheries we already have.

Wouldn't it be nice if we had some magical fish that would reproduce naturally without having to pay for a hatchery...Wait a minute we do.. its called a wild fish.

Top
#141586 - 02/22/02 01:50 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Wishiniwasfishin Offline
Parr

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 66
Loc: Lake Stevens
Wild Chrome

Got to hand it to you Wild Chrome, you are one heck of a fisherman. You get out so much, and are so proficient at what you do, you can feed not only your whole family, but your co-workers and friends as well!!! (Probably fill the local food bank TOO!!)

I must not get out as much or fish as well as a master such as yourself. So what is your point?

All I am saying is that the few times I do get out each yearI would like to BONK the fish I boat.

I think they all fight great, and sound the same when you BONK them.

Bob All 3

So what the masses want doesn't matter? Where the heck did you come up with that? If that is the case we need to make some radical changes. What those are I don't know.

Ijust want more fish for everyone to BONK!

BOSSMAN

All of my fees now go into the general fund. What a crock!!!! These fees should be for fish and game enhancement. Perhaps then we would funds available for all of the hatcheries I would like to build. BONK ON DUDE!!!!

Top
#141587 - 02/22/02 02:21 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Wishiniwasfishin Offline
Parr

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 66
Loc: Lake Stevens
Boss Man

Do you honestly think a river supported by no hatcheries, just naturally reproducing fish,
could ever support a BONKING fishery?? I don't think so, because we don't have any of those any more.

Lets all just BONK together.

Top
#141588 - 02/22/02 04:24 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
RICH G Offline
PP Resident Nostradamus

Registered: 11/05/00
Posts: 2910
Loc: Land of the Lost
Sirbonkalot,

You are totally lost. You dont see the big picture. All you see it as is a resource to take from and you most likely dont care if that yeild ends with you.

There is so much beauty in the native fish. If you took the time to really think about it you might really see things how they are.

Next time you catch a wild steelhead hold him buy the tail on his side at the rivers edge with his body just submerged and watch him breath. Look in his eye. He will be totally relaxed and healthy. Just look at his beauty and think about his life history and what he had to go through to make it to where he is now. Think about the odds off his survival. Actually take the time to do this and you might see the wild steelhead for what it really is. And when you turn him upright he will bolt out of your grasp without any reviveing back into the dark green to finish his lifecycle.

It is much more rewarding than beating thant awsome fish on the head.

If you do this and dont see the big picture than you dont deserve to catch these magnificient native fish.
_________________________
www.olympicproject.com

Top
#141589 - 02/22/02 07:00 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
ltlCLEO Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 1119
Loc: brownsville wa.
siebonkalot=SELFISH HOW MANY TIMES YOU GOING TO CHANGE YOUR NAME?WERN'T YOU RD OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT A WEEK AGO?!

WISHINIWASFISHIN=SEFISH

Top
#141590 - 02/22/02 05:48 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Wild Chrome Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/14/01
Posts: 646
Loc: The Tailout
Sirbonkalot,
I'm not God's gift to steelhead fishing, just an avid, experienced angler who fishes once or twice a week. I'd share info with you on where and how to catch some truly big, hot (wild) steelhead in the northwest, but I'd be afraid that you'd bonk them.
_________________________
If every fisherman would pick up one piece of trash, we'd have cleaner rivers and more access.

Top
#141591 - 02/23/02 12:42 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Wishiniwasfishin Offline
Parr

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 66
Loc: Lake Stevens
RICH G

That was butal, I am still realling from the sting.

I would never BONK a WILD/NATIVE fish (unless legal to do so), and I hope for thier survival for all of eternity. I am saying that the fish that swam the rivers 100 years ago are gone. What we ( and I ) call NATIVE/WILD is really just a naturally spwning fish from whatever stock. I am glad for naturally spawning fish, and yes, you are correct, it magnificent that the fish has returned, Hopefully to go back to sea, and by some miricle return again.

When I do some BONKING, it is always legal begal. I have even let BONKABLE fish go on occasion.
To BONK, or not to BONK, that is the question.

I am saying I like to BONK, and it is the hatchery stock we get to BONK. So lets not only keep on making them, but lets make MORE.

ltlCLEO

I am not selfish. I want everyone to be able to BONK fish. The more BONKABLE fish in the river the better it is for everyone from the tackle stores to the guides. Everyone profits when there is a whole lot of BONKING going on.

Wild Chrome

Thanks for the offer. I assure you I wouldn't BONK any of those HOT WILD fish. I really envy a guy who can get out a couple of times a week. You are a STUD! My wife is not that understanding... WAHHHHH!! BONK ON.

Top
#141592 - 02/23/02 01:01 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
ltlCLEO Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 1119
Loc: brownsville wa.
But you want to sacrifice all wild fish so that you can show off?

Top
#141593 - 02/23/02 01:25 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Wishiniwasfishin Offline
Parr

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 66
Loc: Lake Stevens
lilCLEO

BONKING fish is not showing off. It is good clean fun! How am I scrificing the naturally spwning fish.
It is my contention that the truely wild fish is gone!

Again, If you can't fish, does it matter that there are any fish?

Do you think we would be fishing the snohomish system if the hatcheries at Rieter, the Wallace, and Tokal Creek? To bad we don't have one on the Pilchuck, and the Tolt. Now we are talking about some serious BONKING.

I just want to go for the BONKING GOLD>>>>>and hit the triple BONK.

Top
#141594 - 02/23/02 03:36 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
Sirbonkalot

On the no wild steelhead left issue you are absolutely wrong. There is no evidence to support such an opinion. Contrary to your OPINION the studies that have been completed show very little reproduction by hatchery steelhead in the wild. The studies that have been done that showed some success measured the survival of thoes fish only to the smolt stage. There is no evidence to suggest that there are any wild populations as the result of normal hatchery practices nor that there have been any. These so called "first generation wild fish sinply do not exsist. Nearly all the wild steelhead we have today are the result of two wild parents spawning together.
I challenge you to provide some evidence to back up your position. You do that and I will do the same for my position.

Top
#141595 - 02/23/02 08:51 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
ltlCLEO Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 1119
Loc: brownsville wa.
I am not against hatcherys and I am not against killing a hatch fish and if the population of the wa state was half what it is now I would not be against killing nates.
Your willingness to sacrifice the wild fish so you can bonk fish is where I lose ya.There is nothing to stop ya from catching and bonking hatch brats now!
As for you thinking there are no wild fish tells me alot about you.

Top
#141596 - 02/23/02 11:48 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
kevin lund Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/23/01
Posts: 932
Loc: gales creek, or
to all,
A fishery that should be followed to the end, exsists only in NW British Columbia. The skeena river has several things going for it........

1. Wild steelhead release
2. Great fish runs salmon, steelhead and so on
3. No hatchery's at all!
4. Here is one of the most important keys.....

The water that drains into those rivers has never run across any major metro street. If you look at most of the rivers that are in trouble here in the NW it is because of influence outside of mother nature. If we don't mess with her, she won't mess with us.

there is an awesome run of spring salmon in the skeena system that is all native. It has been producing 30 fish days for lots of guys for years. But you can't keep those fish. that is why they are such healthy runs. Same applies to Skeena steelhead and it's tributary's. There is only two fisheries that you may kill fish in the whole stytem. Fall chinook, which run size is in the millions of kings, that's right, MILLIONS, and the sockey, witch as of the last few years has just opened becauce it's run size is in the millions.

Because we have so many Damms on our rivers, we can only dream of these type of runs. We choose to live it major metropoatin areas where the fish eventually will not make it, Hatcheries or not! We need better water sheds for these fish to survive. NO OUTSIDE INTERFERENCE AT ALL. Fish did so well here 100's of years ago when we were not here in such great numbers.
_________________________
http://togiakriverlodge.net/
http://www.kevinlundfishingguide.com/
Proud member of the CCA
"BOCLMN"
Kevin Lund

Top
#141597 - 02/23/02 12:20 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
bodysurf Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 11/28/01
Posts: 324
Loc: olympia
The Skeena also benefits from no in river netting and no ocean coho fishery for the past few years.Doesn't BC also limit the amount of anglers on certain rivers too?

Top
#141598 - 02/23/02 03:37 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
bodysurf

your right about reduced netting however I do believe that the tribes still harvest some fish. However the number of anglers is not limited anywhere on the skeena system. The only regulations to that effect are that on certain streams non-residents cannot fish on weekends.
The only river I know of that has a limited entry system is the Dean. There may be others but I am not aware of them.

Top
#141599 - 02/23/02 05:44 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Wild Chrome Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/14/01
Posts: 646
Loc: The Tailout
SirBonk,
I will agree that there are some rivers where the genetics of the fish are likely not what they were before hatchery brats "invaded". Therefore, one could argue that those rivers don't have original native stock. However, if I took you for a week of march native fishing on the Oregon coast rivers that I fish every year, you'd see that each river still produces its own unique run of native steelhead. The Nehalem river natives arrive early and are big,thich-shouldered, colorful brutes. The Kilchis river natives are varied in size and are very shy for wild steelhead. The Trask river fish are mostly small, seem to arrive all at once, and are extremely aggressive. The Wilson has an early run of large natives that spawns high in the system and a later run of smaller natives that spawns in the lower river.
Each river has native fish with very unique characteristics. Getting to learn each different river and each population of steelhead produced over thousands of years by the varying conditions that exist in each river is, to me, the best part of fishing for steelhead.
Hatchery fish, to me, are mostly all the same river to river. Even the wild broodstock hatchery fish are more like generic/inbred hatchery brats than true wild steelhead. Rarely does any hatchery steelhead I catch fight as well as a native.
If native steelhead were gone, I'd fish for wild trout and give up on their ocean-going cousins. Luckily, we've still got quite a few rivers with nates, so I can still get excited about steelhead this time of year.
_________________________
If every fisherman would pick up one piece of trash, we'd have cleaner rivers and more access.

Top
#141600 - 02/24/02 06:34 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 12691
There remain native wild steelhead in Washington's coastal, Puget Sound, and even in southwest Washington rivers that are little, or no, different genetically than they were 200 years ago. There has been some hatchery/wild introgression on some rivers, usually among the summer steelhead, but on most west side rivers the rate is so low as not to have been detected in genetic studies. Therefore, if you believe wild native steelhead are worth saving, there are numerous remaining stocks for us to conserve.

As for the notion that we could operate hatcheries on every river and tributary to sate our desire to "bonk," that hypothesis has been demonstrated to be false. Rivers are more than mere conduits for hatchery fish to migrate upstream and downstream in. They have finite carrying capacities, even for hatchery fish; not just for wild fish. It might be a great strategy if it worked, but ultimately it does not.

And regarding funding hatcheries if only our fish and game fees went only into the fish and wildlife budget, pull your head out of the budget darkness. Examine the fish and wildlife budget in full light and you will see that the total budget, and even just the amount spent on state hatcheries is far greater than the amount of money generated by our license fees. If WDFW had to survive on just the fees generated by licenses and such, many, if not most hatcheries in the state would have to close, excepting those paid for by Mitchell Act money or mitigation funds from utility companies.

Can you make a wild steelhead out of a hatchery one? Yes, I believe so. The Cowlitz experiment referred to is a good example. Wild, native steelhead were extirpated from the upper Cowlitz River due to no fish passage facilities or operations for about 30 years. WDFW believes they have maintained the native genetic stock in the "late winters" stock at the Cowlitz trout hatchery. We really don't know exactly what they are, but they're the best we have to work with in the Cowlitz basin. Late winters are spawned at the hatchery, the eggs incubated, and the fry fed a short while prior to being released, scatter planted it's called, throughout the upper river basin above Cowlitz Falls Dam. This scatter planting is done according to a formula developed and observed to be successful in lower B.C.

These hatchery fry rear naturally in the river system, and survive at rates from half to nearly the same as for "wild native" fry as reported by the B.C. authors. This indicates that the people doing the work are doing a good job, and the late winter Cowlitz hatchery stock is suitable for this experiment.

The Cowlitz Falls Dam only collects 40 to 50% of the downstream migrating smolts, but those that are collected and tranferred to the lower river have survived to adult at THREE times the survival rate of Cowlitz hatchery winter steelhead. So this once wild, then hatchery for 30 years, and now "wild" once again genetic strain of steelhead is completing the cycle. As CFM reported, more wild steelhead have returned to the barrier dam fish separator each of the past 4 years. These fish have spawned naturally in the upper Cowlitz River, producing offspring that are - - what? Wild? Native? Hatchery? I think they are wild native steelhead that have a hatchery streak in their bloodline. Big deal. Actually, it is a big deal. People are forever making statements as though the thought therein is absolute. Not so.

Some laws of nature are absolute, like gravity, or the 1st and 2nd laws of thermodynamics. But there is a lot of grey and haze as well. There has to be in order for the world to evolve into what it's become, and what it will become.

Wild native fish do better in the wild than hatchery fish. That shouldn't be such a surprise. Did you also know that hatchery fish do better in hatcheries than wild fish? Kind of makes sense when you think about it, doesn't it?

Regarding scientific fact: A fact is empirically verifiable. A scientific fact can be replicated by others to make and observe the same verification.

Pacific Decadal Oscillation: An hypothesis or theory regarding cyclical variation in physical, and influencing biological, processes in the Pacific Ocean. This, or other causes of variation in ocean upwelling and nutrient and subsequent food supplies greatly influences marine survival of all salmon and steelhead stocks that depend on it to grow to maturity. If the 90s was a decade of low ocean productivity, we may now be in a period of higher ocean productivity, and enjoying the benefit of fish runs that exploited that greater food abundance.

Methinks I've written too much on this; ending now.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Top
#141601 - 02/24/02 09:07 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
Thanks Salmo G

Lets hope that we do continue to have high ocean productivity, I would hate however for the various Government agencies to use it as an exuse to do nothing. I think you'd agree that poor ocean conditions are not the causes of salmon/steelhead decline in the NW. We need to be activly protecting and restoring habitat. Without that we will see declines again when poor ocean productivity returns. We need to restore our wild stocks so that they are healthy and abundant enough to survive the next enviromental downturn.
As far as carrying capasity is concerned.. I think that that is something mother nature should decide. Every rime man steps in to control a population of animals they screw it up. The should be the goal of WDFW to return as many wild salmonids to every stream as possible. If we return too many mother nature can deal with the overabundance naturally however there is no option for mother nature if we return too few. I think that WDFW has no clue how many fish should be returning to our streams and that their data on carrying capasity is an uneducated guess.
If small streams in Alaska can have runs in the hundreds of thousands and in fact millions I doubt the carrying capasity of the Skagit is less that 30,000 winter steelhead and likely several million chums coho and chinook.
I guess my point is I think we greatly underestimate what are rivers and our fish are capable of.
I am very happy to hear about the success they are having on the Cowlitz, Unfortunatly the genetic conditions that make it possible are very rare in hatchery stocks. A decade ago WDFW wanted to breed Washougal winter steelhead as a wild broodstock. they sent anglers in the upper reaches of the watershed to collect adults. many fish were caught, none were breed they all tested positive for INH, they had contracted it from the Skamania stock summer runs.
I am all in favor of a hatchery closure but don't start on the Sol Duc Close the Skamania hatchery!! And while were at it lets eliminate the Washougal Chinook production the only thing it breeds is an illegal fishery.
Ok now i have said too much too

Top
#141602 - 02/25/02 11:57 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Salmo g. Online   content
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 12691
Robert,

We seem to agree that wild fish populations are most resilient in coping with environmental change, be it freshwater or ocean productivity cycles. As for WDFW making "uneducated guesses" about carrying capacity, I've met several of the folks who do this, and I've found them to generally be pretty well educated, and their guesses are based on the best data available and assumptions one can make about fish population dynamics. Carrying capacity is determined by nature, and it is greatly influenced by human actions. So it is important to understand it in the relative sense. Fish population carrying capacity these days is considerably less than it was 200 or even 50 years ago. Some groups are advocating restoring wild fish populations to "historic" run sizes. That just isn't going to happen unless we re-locate about 5 million WA state residents.

There is lots of interest in habitat restoration. This is good, but consider that there are limits to that alternative unless we re-locate the 5 million etc.

As for carrying capacity and potential run sizes like 30K steelhead on the Skagit; well the Skagit may have produced wild run sizes like that at one time, or in some highly productive years, but it won't happen again even if WDFW and the tribes ended all target kill fisheries on steelhead and made the escapement goal roughly equal to the run size each year. The limiting factors for the steelhead run seem to be: egg to fry survival, very early juvenile rearing, and ocean survival. In river harvest by treaty and recreational fishing reduces escapement and productivity in some years, but harvest has much less effect on production than the 3 factors I mentioned.

Skagit pink and chum salmon are almost as productive as they can be under present environmental conditions. Escapements tend to be good to excellent, except for odd year chums. Management chooses to believe that since there is a pink/chum interaction that they need not manage for larger odd year chum runs, but data indicate that large odd year chum escapements more often than not produce subsequent large odd year chum returns. So there is an interaction, but it is partly an artifact of management decisions and partly an ecological one. Pink runs can easily surpass a million fish, but not every cycle. The reason is flooding in freshwater and variation in ocean survival. Puget Sound is bacically the southern extent of the natural range of pink salmon. No species is as productive at the limit of its range as it is at the center. Alaskan pinks are and always will be (until global climate change) more productive than Skagit pinks.

Skagit chum can produce run sizes from 80 to 200K, but not millions, for roughly the same reasons as for pinks. And odd year chum runs will be less than even year runs, due to the pink/chum interaction, but it would be less of a difference if it was not deliberately managed for.

Skagit chinook are truly a puzzle. There is now no targeted fishery of consequence for them anywhere in their range. Yet they remain depressed altho the past couple years have shown improvement. Egg to fry survival has been lower than I would expect. However, most Skagit chinook spawn in the very best habitat available, high flood protection below the Skagit dams, and least sediment input due to watershed being in the national park and wilderness areas. Current research may unravel this puzzle. I hope so, as it is the key to recovery of this chinook population.

The upshot here is that, just because certain Alaskan rivers are teaming with fish, don't assume the same results are possible here without replicating every one of the environmental conditions here as well. And in many instances that simply is not possible.

Beware of absolutes. And remember, assumption is the mother of all f#ckups.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Top
#141603 - 02/25/02 02:35 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
Salmo G My point was not to say that the folks at WDFW are undereducated but simply to point out that the best avaliable science is not adequate for them to be making the assumptions they are making.
A little backround on where I am coming from. I grew up on the Washougal river. This is a river that was devastated by every type of problem imaginable. In the early 1900's it had 3 dams with no fish passage, was continually logged, mined and spash damed. it was polluted with mercury from a papermill. After all this there was still a stable population of wild summer steelhead numbering 1500 strong every year. In the 1960's the Skamania hatchery was built. At that exact time wild summer steelhead populations declined. it is an absolute that the hatchery caused the decline. fishermen were the first to notice it, and WDFW did nothing. it was not until the run was critically depressed that they did anything.
It is this type of managment that WDFW is famous for and they are wrong in maintaining this methodology. this indicates to me that Certain members of WDFW managment (who I am tempted to name) are inspite of their education completely and utterly I can think of no better word than stupid! There are some great people in WDFW particularly in region 5 (Dan Rawding) but at the state managment level they are blinded by their education. they seem content to stick with MSY inspite of it massive and clear failure. They seem to prefer reducing escapment goals and keeping fisheries open as opposed to doing the research to find out what the true ability of our streams are.
We are smack dab in the middle of the range for Chinook, Coho and steelhead and I think that WDFW are underestimating the carrying capacities of our streams, In fact to mee the numbers they come up with seem pretty arbitrary to me. As I said before we should be managing to return as many fish as possible to our streams and if we return too many then nature will sort that out on it's own. I know of no instance where having too many wild fish return to the avaliable habitat caused any problems.

Frankly until WDFW changes it's tune there is no hope for the future of wild salmonids, and NMFS needs to stand up aganst the anti-wild fish agenda .

Top
#141604 - 02/25/02 03:04 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
POS Clerk Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 113
Loc: Oregon

Top
#141605 - 02/25/02 04:14 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
RRR Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 08/18/00
Posts: 270
Loc: (Tacoma native),San Diego WA, ...
not in the habit of writing "fan letters" but Salmo G I really enjoy yer posts -- I get more useful info from you and a handful of others than the rest of the bb members put together. Peez accept a hearty thank you, I really appreciate it (reminds me of when I first discovered this board.

Sincerely,
Roger
_________________________
"Man can learn a lot from fishing. When the fish are biting, no problem in the world is big enough to bne remembered. " -- Oa Battista

VERY Homesick in San Diego

Top
#141606 - 02/25/02 05:18 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
cowlitzfisherman Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/14/00
Posts: 1866
Loc: Toledo, Washington
_________________________
Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Top
#141607 - 02/25/02 07:58 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
UltimateFeashKacher Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 10/24/01
Posts: 294
Loc: WA
Was Salmo g. in hiding? Hadn't heard from him for a while. confused

Top
#141608 - 02/25/02 08:34 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Big Woody Offline
Parr

Registered: 02/21/02
Posts: 52
Loc: Gold Bar Wa
I'm a new member and this is my first post. A little about myself. I just turned kinda old (50) in January. I've lived between Edmonds and Gold Bar most of my life. I'm now in Gold Bar. I've fished all the rivers around here since I've been 8 years old. I use my drift boat occasionaly, but I mostly bank fish. I can get out a few hours before work a couple of times a week. Anyway, I've been following the post from SirBonksalot, and I've found it quite interesting.

Top
#141609 - 02/25/02 08:47 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Big Woody Offline
Parr

Registered: 02/21/02
Posts: 52
Loc: Gold Bar Wa
I didn't finish my post,I must have hit the wrong key. Anyway, like I said I found this post from Bonksalot interesting, and quite informative! I love catching steelhead, Hatchery, and Wild. I must admit 75% of the wild fish I catch are very powerful. Some Hatchery fish are very powerful and acrobatic as well. Especially summer hatchery fish. I have to admit, I love to "Bonk" fish, when it is legal to do so, But I have reservations about taking Native fish. I think most of us when we go fishing like the thought of being able to bring some meat home. Since I've become older and more seasoned, I let the Native fish go, but if someone wants to keep a legal fish I have no problem with that as well. Oh , one more thing . I know SirBonksAlot personally. He's a great guy, A little secret,He likes to stir the pot sometimes! By reading these replies, I see he has!

Top
#141610 - 02/25/02 11:12 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
Big wood I think that there is no tolerance on this board for joking about killing nates and with good and valid reason. It isn't funny. Legal or not there is nowhere in the state of Washington where it os ok or anyway ethical to kill a native steelhead. I'll say it a little more strongly Anyone who bonks a native does not love the resource period!!! that act and the statment are mutually exclusive. There is no gray area here if you kill a nate you prove by your actions that you have no regard for the resource and do not deserve to fish for them. legal or not! Actions speak louder than words. Killing nates = hating the resource.

Top
#141611 - 02/25/02 11:12 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Chuck Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 03/12/99
Posts: 157
Hey big Woody, so he was stirrin the pot? I thought he was a flamer, thanks for clearin that up. Good posts, salmo. I sure hope we can come up with some creative ways of life here. To accomodate the coming masses we will surely have no more runs left. Catch and kill guys can then go and bonk at the net pens.
_________________________
Chuck

Top
#141612 - 02/25/02 11:44 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Big Woody Offline
Parr

Registered: 02/21/02
Posts: 52
Loc: Gold Bar Wa
To Bob All 3,
I don't remember reading anywhere in SirBonks posts or replies where he talked about killing nates.As for me, When I was younger ,like 12 0r 13 I killed Nates . I don't anymore, All I said was ,I don't have a problem if someone does , if it is legal. I'm not here to judge what the fish and game allocates. If you don't like it get the rules changed.

To Chuck. I guess we would all be at the net pens, Unless of course you never caught and killed a Steelhead.

To Sirbonksalot. Jeez, these guys are brutal!!!

Top
#141613 - 02/26/02 12:20 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Wishiniwasfishin Offline
Parr

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 66
Loc: Lake Stevens
Big Woody

You gots to watch your back...Even when you are having some good clean BONKIN fun! You are right, I never mentioned BONKING nates, or even alluded to it. I want to BONK brats. So lets make some more brats for BONKING....Thats all.

How about some new post ideas? Something along the idea of a BONKING Armada...The boat with the most blood wins. We could even turn down some new bonking sticks on tour lathe, and hand them out to all of the entrants..... Cool huh?.... Or net pen BONKATHON!! The slime would be flying. You could easily get in the gold medal winning triple BONK. (watch out for the French judge) BONK along with your friendly Native American BONKING buddy.....(that one is sick)

To ALL

This has been a very informative thread. It is great to learn and have fun at the same time. Hope I didn't step on any toes. Stir the pot, tip it over, and run like hell...What exactly is a Flamer?

Top
#141614 - 02/26/02 12:36 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
UltimateFeashKacher Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 10/24/01
Posts: 294
Loc: WA
Big Woody,

Hang in there. I read your first/second posts and I don't see why you are under a mild? attack. As far as your comments about SirBonkAlot I have to admit I only read a few posts (mainly Salmo g. and cowlitzfisherman) in this thread to learn things and filtered out other stuff but hey maybe I am missing something!

Top
#141615 - 02/26/02 12:44 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Big Woody Offline
Parr

Registered: 02/21/02
Posts: 52
Loc: Gold Bar Wa
SirBonksalot, My Lathe will be rollin this weekend! How about monogramed bonkers! I'll be selling them at the net pens. Buy one get one free!

Top
#141616 - 02/26/02 12:55 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Wishiniwasfishin Offline
Parr

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 66
Loc: Lake Stevens
Big Woody

Sounds great....Lets put lanyards on them too....That way they won't slip out of your hands when the slime gets really thick...Wouldn't want to hurt a fellow BONKER. We could even put a clip on the lanyard so it could clipped right to your vest...Easy to grab for the quick efficient riverside BONKING!!

With that BONKER hanging from your vest all of the other fisherman would see that you mean buisiness, and would be more than willing to lend a hand BONKING their fish as well. I can here the comments along the river now. " Dude, is that one of those Comemorative Armada BONKERS?" "That thing is a collectors item. Just look at all of the dried blood on that thing!!" "You must be a master BONKER. Can I be your studend of the fine art of BONKING?"

Top
#141617 - 02/26/02 01:04 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Big Woody Offline
Parr

Registered: 02/21/02
Posts: 52
Loc: Gold Bar Wa
To Ultimate Feashkatcher, This is my first time on the site and I think I'm getting slammed a little. I guess I was just trying to be honest about how I felt about Steelheading. Yes I do like to take a fish once in a while. Now days I release most because I don't like to freeze fish. All Nates go back.
Thanks for the positive reply.

Top
#141618 - 02/26/02 01:30 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
UltimateFeashKacher Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 10/24/01
Posts: 294
Loc: WA
Big Woody,

Consider it an initiation. Its like a big Frat here. You are now baptized. May be we should baptize everyone at blue creek before joining eek

Top
#141619 - 02/26/02 10:36 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
ltlCLEO Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 1119
Loc: brownsville wa.
Salmo g,Robert allen3,Cowfisherman,Pos clerk, anymore I get exited when I see your guy's names come together on a post because I know that there will be good honest discusion,thank you. smile
If I was too make a follow up post it would not of much diferant than robertallen3's.I would say that we think alot alike.I would love to learn more about this whole formula used to base the escapements on?Thanks again guys.

Top
#141620 - 02/26/02 09:24 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
RipDatLip Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/23/01
Posts: 301
Loc: Battle Ground, WA
You may have read this or not, but you might be interested in some facts. This is a link to another post.

Link To Other Post

Matt
_________________________
Fishing... Not just a sport, not just an obsession, just one strong INSTINCT.

Top
#141621 - 02/28/02 12:47 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
DC Offline
Egg

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 3
Loc: Everett, wa
Big Woody

You have a good point read below

Bob All 3

I have read the entire board and fail to see where SIRBONKALOT says he kills natives, His point is very simple Keep the Hatcheries working to create more brats for the how does he put it "THE BONKING" I love to fish the rivers and like to take home my fish, But I will not Keep a Native. It is not legal and not worth it... So please feel free to Bonk all the Brats you care to.... and easy up a little We all are in agreement...... NO Natives GET BONKED....... Read the words that are typed without adding any.........

By the Way Bob do you Fly Fish only?

Top
#141622 - 02/28/02 03:13 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9159
Loc: everett
big woody & dc He did say in his post about 3/4 the way down page 1 that he would never bonk a wild fish unless it was legal to do so .
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

Top
#141623 - 02/28/02 05:32 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Todd Offline
Bumpin the 6X9's

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 25251
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Here's an article in the Vancouver Sun about wild/hatchery interaction. It's pretty sobering...

http://www.canada.com/vancouver/vancouversun/story.asp?id={A8F607BC-6368-410B-A421-ADE6EDD889E2}

Fish on...

Todd.

Top
#141624 - 02/28/02 06:58 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
DC, The vast majority of the fishing I do is fly fishing but i do some gear fishing.
See the post above for what he said about keeping nates..
Also he mentioned wanting to put hatcheryies on most rivers. with the science that is avaliable today it is clear that planting more fish has the same effect as bonking natives. More hatchery fish = fewer wild fish any way you slice it. Also the mentality that high harvest fishereis generate is NOT something that WDFW should be propogating. I think it would be a bad thing if every river had a hole like blue creek or the meat hole on the lewis. This type of fishery breeds a type of angler that has no place of most of our northwest streams.

Top
#141625 - 02/28/02 07:25 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
cowlitzfisherman Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/14/00
Posts: 1866
Loc: Toledo, Washington
Todd,

This study may have some very impressive results. But first, we need to see what the protocols were. People will ask; who paid for this study? That's always a clue to the outcome! And what were the PLANNED results that are anticipated?

Don't get me wrong, but I have seen more studies arranged to get the required results than you can count! So let's not jump one way or the other, until the scientific people have had a chance to fully review all the facts before we draw any conclusions. You know, and I know, that this happens all the time when it comes to analyzing any study.

Thanks for bringing this one to our attention, now lets see where it ends up!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????
_________________________
Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Top
#141626 - 02/28/02 09:34 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
Cowlitzfisherman

There have been dozens of studies done over the last 30 years all pointing to the fact that hatchery fish have a negative impact on wild fish. Suggesting that Mr Chilcote would find the results he is paid to find what he found is absurd. That would be the same as calling him a liar. I personally do not believe that most or very many scientists are out there fabricating studies.
There is no study that I have ever heard of to suggest there has ever been anything but a negative impact on wild fish when hatchrey fish are introduced. I have looked extensivly and have never seen a study indicating hatchery fish were anything but bad for natural populations.
What happens most of the time with salmon related studies is they are absolutely ignored by fisheries managers because the actions called for by the studies it too politically expencive!! If managers had been doing what their scientists told them was the best thing to do we would not have the mess we currently have.
There is NO absolutely NO reason to think that hatcheries are anything but bad for wild fish.. Anyone who believes otherwise came to that conclusion by 1. being irrational 2. ignoring the overwhelming scientific evidence

Top
#141627 - 02/28/02 10:11 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
cowlitzfisherman Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/14/00
Posts: 1866
Loc: Toledo, Washington
_________________________
Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Top
#141628 - 02/28/02 11:05 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
I am reading the Chilcote study now. It is based on facts in history. No one is faking fish counts for personal benefit. The science is clear there is no way around it hatchery fish ARE!!!!!!!! (there is no doubt) bad for wild fish. That is much a fact of life as gravity! Like it or not!

Top
#141629 - 02/28/02 11:24 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Wishiniwasfishin Offline
Parr

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 66
Loc: Lake Stevens
BOTTOM LINE.......The elitiste fly fishing, bunny hugging, tree saving, fish kissing greenies are the ones that care most about the wild fish!!!! Lets shut down all of the hatcheries, Cause they sure are bad for those poor Wild Fish. Now lets shut down all of the fishing....Cause what is next, the study on catch and release mortality.....You bet some of those beautiful Wild Fish you catch, Adore, and release back into the great green wild....DIE!!!! You shoud have just BONKED the poor ******* in the first place and put him out of his misery.

The ULTIMATE SOLUTION........Owtlaw all fishing........The only way to get a nice fresh steelhead is to go buy it from one of our friendly Native Amercan friends..........LONG LIVE THE WILD FISH!!!!

Top
#141630 - 02/28/02 11:26 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Perfect Drift Offline
Smolt

Registered: 01/18/01
Posts: 94
Loc: Battle Ground, Washington
Sorry Robert, Cowlitzfisherman's right regarding his last post. Like you said, "Like it or not".

James
_________________________
WHAT THE...?

Original Creator: Ultimate Egg Cure

Top
#141631 - 03/01/02 12:02 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Big Woody Offline
Parr

Registered: 02/21/02
Posts: 52
Loc: Gold Bar Wa
WISHINIWASAFISHIN, You've got a point there, A few years ago ,My wife and I were fishing with Bob on the Hoh at the end of March. We wanted to go catch and release some Nates. It was my wifes first float and we had a great day . The only bad part of the day came when my wife landed a beautiful chrome 15 LB Native. No matter how hard our guide tried to revive that fish it just wasn't going to live. We had to just watch that fish float belly up downstream and around the corner. So what do you do? Food for the birds I guess.

Really I can see it coming to the point where our fishing privileges will be diminished , if not eradicated altogether. I can sense some PETA influence in some of Bob All # 3's posts. Such as," I would rather have closed rivers full of wild fish than no wild fish" Another post of Not having a Blue creek on every river, because it spawns the type of fisherman that don't belong in these N.W. rivers. Well ,LA ,TEE, DA!!

Top
#141632 - 03/01/02 12:04 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Big Woody Offline
Parr

Registered: 02/21/02
Posts: 52
Loc: Gold Bar Wa
To, WISHINIWASAFISHIN, one more thing. I wonder if I can get some lynx hair from Bob ALL## to tie some flies with?

Top
#141633 - 03/01/02 12:42 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
Think what you like, everyone is entitled to their opinion. I just think the fish's survival as a species is more important than our ability to go fish for them!
We can strike a balance between hatchery and wild fish. There will always be both in our streams however having every river loaded with fish like the cowlitz in the wrong approach and WILL !! cause the extinction of wild steelhead. I have been to the hatchery hole on the North Lewis during the salmon run and during the winter steelhead run I don't care what anyone says the scum who sit there and snag fish all day long at the hatchery intake don't deserve to be allowed anywhere near our streams.
I am not PETA influenced I am common sence influenced. I am sorry if you guys feel that it's your right to fish until the last fish is dead. I think you are wrong and that is an extremely selfish attitude.
By the way CnR mortality for barbles single hook atrificial.. 3%

Top
#141634 - 03/01/02 01:02 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Wishiniwasfishin Offline
Parr

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 66
Loc: Lake Stevens
BOB ALL 3

I hope you didn't just call all of the fisherman at the Lewis hole, and the Blue Creek drift a bunch of SCUM........ If you fish these holes are you also a snagger?

What about all of the guides that make their living fishing these "meat Holes"? Are they SCUM as well?

I wish we had a couple of meat holes up north, so I wouldn't have to travel so far to BONK the fish I SNAG(sic).

Bob, Me thinks you are beginning to show your true colors. BOB ALL 3 = SNOB!

Top
#141635 - 03/01/02 01:27 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
As I said think what you like I could really care less. I never said I was fishing at the meat hole on the North lewis simply that I was there. I'd never join that mad house. At far as I could tell The guys fishing below the hatchery intake on the North lewis ( at least during the Coho run ) were ALL snaggers! If thinking that these lowlifes are scum makes me a snob then so be it.
I won't comment on Blue creek becaise I have never seen it during the same conditions.
There are more than plenty of hatchery fish to bonk everywhere in the state. If you can't catch enough of them tp be satisfied then the answer is to go out fishing more. Not planting more hatchery fish.

Top
#141636 - 03/01/02 01:55 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Wishiniwasfishin Offline
Parr

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 66
Loc: Lake Stevens
I think all snaggers are SCUM as well. To bad there wasn't a local authority near by you could have called to come in and snagg some of those SNAGGING SCUM!

Makes you want to just start pushing them in the water.

BONK ON!!

Top
#141637 - 03/01/02 02:21 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
stlhdr1 Offline
BUCK NASTY!!

Registered: 01/26/00
Posts: 5671
Loc: Vancouver, WA
Reality is the river system is like a circular food chain.. You have to have salmon to come back in big #'s for them to die and nutrients to be recycled into the system.. Check all the rivers with a healthy or rivers that meet escapement goals for winter native steelhead and they all have a good solid fall salmon run..
Take a look at AK, it has the entire "circular" food chain that thrives off each species year in and year out. Once a part of that food chain or "cycle" is lost the whole system goes down...

I beleive that we are buying time for the wild steelhead with hatchery salmon being planted to make up for the wild runs of salmon that used to be in most systems in healthy runs..
Keith laugh
_________________________
If Trump can't do it, no one can.....


Top
#141638 - 03/01/02 02:29 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Wild Chrome Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/14/01
Posts: 646
Loc: The Tailout
I really hate to step back into this thread, because I think we should all move on, but I gotta show Bob All 3 some support. A few bonkaholics above noted that the funding of research will bias the results...True! So ignore all research?! Give me a break! I suppose you don't take medicines because some money-driven drug company stands to profit from the research that developed it! Think about that the next time you reach for a bottle of Advil because your arm's aching from so much bonkin'! Any true scientist knows, when reviewing studies on any subject, you have to put your trust in what the majority of evidence indicates is fact. Bob All 3 is right in stating that the majority of studies out there indicate that hatchery fish do harm wild fish populations. I would not accept that as fact myself if I had not done a lot of reading and talking with biologists myself. I encourage anyone to do the same before forming their opinion.
After painfully reading through most of this thread, I've come to a conclusion about the gotta-bonk community: You guys couldn't care less about whether native salmonids survive. All you care about is whether or not there is a fish you can kill in your favorite hole. All the inspiration and beauty that comes from seeing salmon spawn (with some possibility of success) and return to the river where they were born (circle of life kind-of stuff),...To H*$# with it! To H$#@ with what it means to the millions of people who don't fish and who think for some strange reason that salmon are fish that return to the stream where they were born! You may say you don't advocate killing wild fish, but what's the difference between bonking them to extinction and pushing them to extinction through innundation with hatchery fish? Your short-sighted self conscious?
I bonk plenty of brats and I release plenty of nates. I see value in both. I agree with Bob All 3 in that there's plenty of potential for good fisheries to exist in Oregon and Washington for nates and brats, but not necessarily in the same rivers. Can't have 500,000 hatchery smolts planted in your favorite local river because they damage native fish?....Boo hoo hoo! Gimme gimme gimme!!!!!!!! After all, this thread began with a comment to the effect that we should give up on restoring the nates and dump more brats in the rivers from a person who didn't even know the difference between wild and native.
_________________________
If every fisherman would pick up one piece of trash, we'd have cleaner rivers and more access.

Top
#141639 - 03/01/02 11:51 AM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
WILD CHROME

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!

I am done with this thread!

Top
#141640 - 03/01/02 05:04 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
DC Offline
Egg

Registered: 02/28/02
Posts: 3
Loc: Everett, wa
Bottom line stop Netting on rivers that have no hatcheries and create a more ridgid constrants on rivers with BRATS that stops netting when the Nate's main run come in........ At least the Nate's will survive and we can all Bonk the brats............. They already have stoped CnR durning this time on most rivers.

Top
#141641 - 03/01/02 06:13 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Big Woody Offline
Parr

Registered: 02/21/02
Posts: 52
Loc: Gold Bar Wa
Wild Chrome, I agree whole heartedly that there can be a balance between Nates and Hatchery fish , But not necessarily on the same river. For instance , the Sauk is opened for C&R now and I love that fishery. I could care less if I could keep a fish now. It's such a beautiful fishery in March and April. You have a chance of hooking and playing a fish of a lifetime.

It would be great to have Bonking places and C&R places. On the Sky, the Nates usually come in later than the hatchery . So it makes it pretty nice. To bad they closed it the end of Feb, I love to float the upper river at this time C&R is great into March and on the lower Sky into April. The last couple of years we hav'nt been able to enjoy that opportunity.

I live on the Sky above Proctor creek and about May the Nates are in the Eddy right below my property. I can see them all the way up to the cable hole. So even though I bonk hatchery fish, I agree that we have to help see to the survival of the Nates.

I've learned a lot from this thread, it's help me understand the biology a little more.

Top
#141642 - 03/01/02 08:04 PM Re: TRUE NATIVES/WILD FISH
Wishiniwasfishin Offline
Parr

Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 66
Loc: Lake Stevens
Made you think!!! I learned a lot myself. Thanks to all who contributed.

Rivers for nates, and rivers for brats, not a bad idea.

I am all done with this thread.

Top
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 4 >

Moderator:  elparquito 
Search

Site Links
Home
Our Washington Fishing
Our Alaska Fishing
Reports
Rates
Contact Us
About Us
Recipes
Photos / Videos
Visit us on Facebook
Today's Birthdays
fishbomm
Recent Gallery Pix
Gibbs Delta Time Capsule
Driftin'
Who's Online
10 registered (DrifterWA, OceanSun, RUNnGUN, Larry B, Salmo g., Smalma, avidangler, Illahee, 2 invisible), 1512 Guests and 3 Spiders online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
WildBobber, Nikkidog, northwesttubefly, Craig S., Ed Koch
11446 Registered Users
Top Posters
Todd 25251
Sol Duc 15751
Dan S. 15582
elparquito 13664
Salmo g. 12691
eyeFISH 12482
STRIKE ZONE 12107
Dogfish 10979
ParaLeaks 10513
Jerry Garcia 9159
Forum Stats
11446 Members
18 Forums
75576 Topics
834098 Posts

Max Online: 2197 @ 12/27/19 09:51 PM

Join the PP forums.

It's quick, easy, and always free!

Working for the fish and our future fishing opportunities:

The Wild Steelhead Coalition

The Photo & Video Gallery. Nearly 1200 images from our fishing trips! Tips, techniques, live weight calculator & more in the Fishing Resource Center. The time is now to get prime dates for 2018 Olympic Peninsula Winter Steelhead , don't miss out!.

| HOME | ALASKA FISHING | WASHINGTON FISHING | RIVER REPORTS | FORUMS | FISHING RESOURCE CENTER | CHARTER RATES | CONTACT US | WHAT ABOUT BOB? | PHOTO & VIDEO GALLERY | LEARN ABOUT THE FISH | RECIPES | SITE HELP & FAQ |