Cowlitzfisherman,
The Trask and Nehalem hatchery programs were actually eliminated in large part due to budget shortfalls. Guess which fish cost more to manage?

Thumper,
It's nice to hear about hard fighting fish regardless of their origins. The few hot brats I have hooked have been early summer-runs west of the Cascades. Most of them are not as hot as the wild fish I've caught in the same rivers. I've never hooked what I would consider a really hot winter brat. I think the difference between wild and hatchery is greater when the water's cold. East of the Cascades, which is where I do most of my summer steelheading, I have never caught a brat that has fought as well as an average native. I think the natives retain their strength better on the long trip out of the ocean.

Incidently, on the Deschutes, the fish are counted as they pass over Shears Falls. Last year the ratio was 5 brats per native. The ratio of fish caught was one to one! (those were ODFW's numbers, not mine. See Frank Amato's column in STS for more details).

Regarding large natives not jumping, that's not a wild vs hatchery thing, that's a big steelhead thing. The big bucks (>15 pounds) don't jump much. They fight more like chinooks.

There is a world of diference between a hatchery fish and a wild fish in the fight,size and inteligence!There are two hatchery runs on my favorite river the old run that hangs on from the seventys and the clipped fish that the state just dumps in to justify a fishery.Both those runs of fish don't even really fight,just roll around on the end of the line!They do not get over 8 lbs and will hold in a section of the river even when they clearly know you are there.Anybody with any time with native fish can tell right off the bat whether it is a hatch or wild winter run.Summer run fish are a diferant story due to water temp and the fact that they come into the river to hang out for awile not just to reproduce!

I have to agree that money talks and that is exactly why we will see,almost in our life time,a very important part of the balance of nature,the wild steelhead,disapear.This saddens me deaply because hatch fish will never compete in my world,with gods creations.Every river and trib has a slighty diferant wild fish.Bigger tail smaller tails ,The colors they change into as blend back into there childhood home all means alot to me and my obsession.

Unfortunately CF prediction is not far off I am afraid,and still no responsibility by the state,just more mismanagment.I am afraid that the returns to the quilliute sytem this spring is going to once again show the absolute inefectiveness of this MSY b.s

I am glad that they are going to change the hatch program as it is need of a revamping entirely.Anybody that thinks that a cement pool full of fish being hand fed and manhandled by man can replace nature is not looking for the truth.I have been working at the quilicene hatch for a few weeks clipping fish,just to get an idea how this works.There is no part of the real world incorporated into the hatchery to prepare the fish for life.Instead the state has relied on big numbers of of ignorant helpless smolt to obtain a small return.This wrong and does not give nature one bit of credit.

It does seem that the only places that the hatchery programs seem to work are where the native fish are not an issue.Think about that.I am fortunate enough to know the diferance but my kids may not,then it will not matter,right?

Hatcheries are hear to stay but that does not justify killing off the nates.There are good number of rivers that need to be shut down period.Not subsidised with hatcheries.This policy of planting a small amount of fish into a stream to justify keeping it open is going to kill some very beautifull runs.I believe that hatcheries put on the low end of some of our rivers,that have the ability to collect the returning fish are needed to subsidize what the population wants.

If I was to build a hatchery it would be a stream and a pond in the woods much like eagle springs on the sol duc.It would have natural COVER.It would have natural food subsidized by fish food but not at 10:00 every morning to the masses but a random automatic machine that sprays small amounts at diferant spots all day.In a perfect world I would would not put fish through the process of getting its fins clipped.I would keep human interaction down to the absolute minimum.I would keep birds out with a trained dog but still allow some predatory interaction.I know there is more to it than that like disease etc but does it have to be a sterile test tube on a set schedule?

I think another problem that some of us have with the hatcheries is visiting one during a peak time of the year.The blatant snagging,the litter,The urine,the total incondsideration for others,the crowd in general,the thiefs in the parking lots,the tangled lines all to catch a fish that is smaller weaker and stupid?????

Robert Allen3

Long posts seem to scare people away!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Robert,

I am compelled to let the "common fishermen" know the truth!!!

For one, WE are not talking about Coho here, but "WE" are talking about steelhead, right? These are two species that may have some things in "common" but they are pretty much like too different birds, aren't they? For one thing and it's a big thing, Coho only return home once in their life cycle, and then they spawn and Die! As you know, steelhead can spawn and return numerous times.

Coho spawn in mainly side channels and smaller size streams, right? They (Coho) pretty much like the same types of water that cutthroat do for spawning, don't they? Coho, become one of the steelheads main food chains when they die and spawn, don't they? They (Coho) become one of steelhead best food sources for their fry, don't they? Steelhead spawners are NOT the main source of stream side food for Coho.

Even throwing all of that out, your posted study only "suggests" that there is a negative impact and interaction between wild fish and hatchery incubators. Let's not also forget that almost all "hatcheries" save the "best" fry for their own programs, and then dump the rest of the diseased, weak, and sub stander fry into every other "experiment". It's called "self survival" dump your crap onto everyone else, and lord and behold, your program always comes out on top! I have seen this done on the Cowlitz, time after time! And believe me; it's done the same everywhere else!

Furthermore, it appears that your "posted study" only applies to "costal streams" and then, only Coho. All one has to do is read DEEPLY into what you have copied and posted (i.e. STEP HATCHBOX EVALUATION). Again, read what this study says; "The purpose of the "STEP hatchbox" evaluation program was to evaluate the effectiveness of coho salmon fry that result from late spawning broodstock incubated in STEP hatchboxes, to rehabilitate wild populations of "coho salmon".."

Maybe this paragraph covers it all;

"SUMMARY"
" There is little argument that good artificial incubation techniques can have egg-to-fry survival rates of well over 95%, a significant increase over values reported for naturally incubated eggs. However, there is little evidence that egg-to-fry survival rates are "limiting the adult production of most salmonid fishes". (emphasis added) One exception to this may be with chum salmon, which migrate into salt-water almost immediately after emerging from the gravel. For salmonid species with extended freshwater rearing
(coho, steelhead, cutthroat, and some chinook stocks) factors other than egg to fry survival rate are probably more important in determining adult production levels.

Does the word "Ocean survival" ring a BIG bell to you Robert Allen3?

None of these "older studies" ever took, or has fully analyzed this into there study, or have taken this newly discovered FACT into consideration, did they?

So please, no more copy and pasting of "old" studies or "old facts" that only "suggest" what may or may not be happening! Let's talk "REAL TURKEY" here, and let EVERYONE fully understand what is really going on!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Bob All 3 and Cowlitzfisherman,
I don't have enough time or brainpower left today to read your whole posts. I do have personal relationships with a couple fisheries biologists here in Oregon who believe based on the science done here that hatchery fish inc. wild broodstock do harm wild fish numbers (natives or not). They base their opinions on a whole lot more science than anyone's going to post here.

My own experience is that I catch more wild steelhead in rivers that aren't planted with brats.

Your COOL Cowlitzfisherman!!!

The hatchbox idea sounds good. Lets d it with both hatchery eggs and wild egg. Anytime you can get up tp 95% survivabilty you are on the right track. It seems hatchboxes could be put on any number of small tributaries.

There is a small stream that runs through my property on the Cowlitz. How would I go about getting a hatchbox permit and eggs etc... I think it would be a great learning experience for my children....The stream is between blue creek and barrier on the north side of the river. It has running water all year

Wishiniwasfishin

You can contact either the FOC office (360) 748-7793 Or Dave Becker at (360) 864-4865. Dave used to be the guy that was in charge of those egg box projects. I don't know if Dave is still the lead guy, but he will put you onto the right one if he is not not still doing it. Hope this will help you out.

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Wild Chrome

You just said; "My own experience is that I catch more wild steelhead in rivers that aren't planted with brats"

Well, what else could you possibly catch if nothing else was planted in that same river???? You must be getting REALLY tired!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Interesting discussion-

It seems everyone falls into the trap of latching on to some magic bullet to fix the ills of our rivers - Wild steelhead release, egg box/fry release, wild brood stock, etc. The reality is that we are destroying our rivers and simple and easy fixes are not going to do the trick.

Robert Allen 3 is correct - there is more than ample evidence that fry and egg box release of salmonids that spend extended time in freshwater (coho and steelhead) contributes little future returns. See no need to go into more studies - millions of coho fry a year had been planted in Puget Sound rivers for decades with no measureable success. Steelhead are different than coho - they spend even more time in freshwater (normally 2 years rather 1 year for coho) thus are even more limited by freshwater survival factors.

Going to Catch and Release is also just another magic bullet. CnR is not a conservation tool but rather a management tool that can be used to allocate impacts, provide access to other stocks (salmon, hatchery steelhead etc.) with minimal impacts on co-mingled wild stocks, or provide increasing fishing if anglers are willing to release the fish.

The bottom line is that in many of our wild steelhead populations are in trouble because our rivers are in trouble. We need to set aside this "holy Grail" search for the "magic bullet" solution and step up and address what ails our rivers. This begins with an examination of each and everyone of us looking honestly at our own impacts on the resource both in our fishing and our life styles. It has taken nearly 150 years of a wide variety of activities to put us in this position and reversing this declining trend will not occur over night.

Tight lines
Smalma

Smalma

Since you are a "biologist", why not put your neck out onto this shopping block and give us your professional point of view on how we can restore our fish runs. I to have a "few friends" that are biologists, but they too always take the easy way out.

Please, tell us how you would solve this 150 year old trend. Do you have any "new" ideas, if so please let them fly!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Cowlitzfisherman,
Nothing a good triple mocha can't cure!

On the subject of what else I'd catch besides wild fish in an unplanted river, one word: Brats! I've caught many stray hatchery steelhead in either rivers that weren't planted, or in rivers that weren't their river of origin, which could be determined by the finclips. On the Deschutes River, for instance the local brats all have a right maxillary clip and are of native broodstock origin. About half the brats caught in that river (more in some years) don't have a maxillary clip! Last year, I caught a brat on the Nehalem river about 25 miles upstream from the mouth of the North Fork, which is the nearest river with a hatchery. The year before, I caught one about 30 miles upstream from it. On the Trask river, which gets no brat steelhead, a lot of people target brats in December and January because there are so many stray brats from the Wilson and Kilchis.

My comment regarding catching more wild steelhead in unplanted rivers has to do with hours of effort per fish ratio. It's just plain lower (better) for wild steelhead on unplanted rivers. I choose my river du jour based on water levels, time of year, weather, and other factors. In February and March, when the current conditions tell me to fish a river that's not planted, I tend to catch more wild steelhead than when conditions tell me to fish a river that has wild steelhead and is planted with brats.

Cowlitzfisherman -
I doubt I have any new ideas - folks alot smarter than I have struggled with these issues far long than I have.

However as a fisher and one who cares deeply about conservation I believe the following -

1) Success will depend on directing the obivous zeal and passion for steelhead and the other salmonids exhibited by nearly everyone visiting this board towards developement of solutions. First and foremost we must stop this wrestling over who gets what piece of the steelhead pie and work instead on increasing the size of the pie.

2) The focus can not be on a single species or several species but on the whole of the river systems. The various salmonid species of the region have evolued over many 1,000s of years in river systems that were very dynamic. These rivers were constantly changing; creating new channels, filling others, constructing log jams, washing out others, moving across the valley floor, filling and expanding estuaries, etc. The last 150 years we as a society have tried our collective best to reduce the rivers to a static environment. This static condition is the antithesis of a functioning river system and the biolgical resources they supports. Fish in such an environment become as plastic as hatchery fish.

3) The last century and 1/2 we have used more and more of the innate capacity of our rivers to support a variety of human needs (power, water, timber, agiculture, fishing, etc). For fishing to continue we as fishers need to demand that a portion of our rivers productivity be set aside to support fishing - we can argue later about how to allocate that productivity between various user groups. Without sitting aside that productivity your doomsday will certainly occur. If we aren't successful soon the demand from the competing uses will reduce the system's productivity to a point that even catch and release can not be supported. That may not occur in my lifetime but clearly that is where we are headed.

4) Taking no action is almost always wrong for the fish. We can not be afraid to move forward out of fear of making a mistake but rather do our collective best to make an informed decision as possible. That said we must admit past mistakes and learn from them. Heaven knows I have made more than my share of mistakes. Fish management must by its very nature must be a process of building and improving upon past actions.

5) I view my role as one of providing the best information (warts and all) that I have so that each of you can make informed decisions. In that line I'll give you a honest assessment of the pros and cons of actions that you or others may propose. If that makes me the local SOB, then so be it.

As I promised I have no "magic bullets". Much of the work will need to be piece meal - river by river. We'll need to work on details as we go along.

The cynic in me says that restoring rivers is impossible. The optimist says I must try.

To me it is not about just steelhead but rather about being able to wade rivers that are alive and supporting diverse naturally produced salmonid populations. A future where such opportunities are limited to remote areas and/or national parks is very bleak indeed.

Tight lines
Smalma

Smalma

What you have said is true. BUT this thread is all about options, and we need everybody to bring out their "silver bullets" before this war can be won. I have attended more technical fishery meetings then I ever want to remember (just enough to become dangerous).The average guy never gets the time or opportunity to see what these "silver bullets" are, and this thread was intended to bring everyone's minds together in an attempt to turn this mess around.

To me, it's quickly coming down to only a "Micro Management" policy for each river system. The problem is to large now to manage as a whole, and I believe that "generally managing" our river systems all in the same fashion will not solve the nightmare that now exists. That is why I am asking this board to make some suggestions on how their most favorite river system could or should be managed. I think that this board could benefit immensely from the vast experience that exists outside of our fish management agencies. They are locked into their own way of thinking because of their own politics and policies. We are not!

Here, we are free to say and discuss every conceivable option that we want to. We are not concerned about "hurting" each others feeling, or burning a bridge or two behind us. I have worked with both our state and federal agencies for more then 16 years now, and I have seen their "mental block" at work. I know that we can find many of the answers IF we can ever get over OUR native and hatchery "mental blockade"!

I for one am tired of being forced to take a side. The answers lie somewhere between managing native fish SEPARATELY from hatchery fish. The simple truth is that every river system will eventually need to be "Micro Managed" as an individual river system.

So folks, pick a river, pick any river and tell us how you would "manage" it. Tell us why you think that your management strategies may work. Who knows, maybe, just maybe, the agencies will read this thread and start hearing what WE really want! Just think YOU can do all that without even leaving YOUR desk!!

We did it on the Cowlitz, and you can do it on your river too!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Cowlitzfisherman:

Lets try this again, part of any plan to save wild salmon/steelhead has to involve keeping hatchery fish from spawing in the wild and their planting must be done in such as way as to minimize impacts on wild juveniles.
Since this thread has become about developing a strategy for saving these fish. That is my part of the solution.

Cowlitzfisherman,
I'm not so sure I want the Deschutes, Sandy, Nehalem, Trask Rivers, etc. to be another Cowlitz. Maybe I should come up there and fish? I've fished the Kalama and Klickitat several times and was impressed with the numbers of hatchery fish on the Kalama (not the way they fought...pretty average brats, though it was fall). I did catch a hot wild steelhead and a hot wild coho on the Klickitat last November. I was much more impressed with the Klickitat's fish, access, scenery. Is that what the Cowlitz is like?
Here in beaverland, the last time I fished was on the Nehalem. I had my favorite series of pools to myself and caught 3 wild steelhead in 3 hours, inc. one that jumped 8 times in the 40 degree water. Is the Cowlitz like that?
I don't mean to be cocky or a smart ass, but I like the priority wild fish have been receiving more and more and I'm happy with what changes in management I've seen from ODFW, Mt. Hood N.F., PGE, and many other players here in Oregon. I'd fish more in your state and spend more cash while there if more WA rivers were managed for wild fish.

On the subject of local fisherman making management decisions, be careful what you wish for. Noone can screw up a situation better than a self-ascribed expert with a little bit of knowledge and a lot of incentive. I see that all the time in my work as a veterinarian. The sick animals that get cared for by their know-it-all owners instead of vets are rarely as well off. Sometimes they die. I don't want that type of scenario on my rivers and fish, thanks.

Wild Chrome

Let's not forget who has gotten us were we are today!

It was your so-called "Experts", and those early biologists who got us where we are now! And that is a FACT that can not be denied! I'll take my chances with an all "new gang" from now on. Too much of that "old blood" still calling all the shots up our way.

Cowlitzfisherman
Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????