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#147481 - 04/01/02 11:38 AM Dr. K's See Best System
Net_Boy Offline
Smolt

Registered: 10/18/99
Posts: 99
Loc: Everett,WA,USA
I'm reading 'What Fish See' by Dr. Kageyama. Very interesting stuff. I wonder this:
1. Has anyone purchased the testing sytem he sells?
2. How does it work?
3. How does the system simulate long distance versus close distance?
4. How does the system simulate cold versus warm water?
5. Is it worth the price? Couldn't you do the same thing with cheap colored plastic filters? confused confused
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#147482 - 04/01/02 05:47 PM Re: Dr. K's See Best System
Net_Boy Offline
Smolt

Registered: 10/18/99
Posts: 99
Loc: Everett,WA,USA
Anybody know what I'm talking about?
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Matt


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#147483 - 04/01/02 05:50 PM Re: Dr. K's See Best System
Old Man Offline
Spawner

Registered: 05/02/01
Posts: 763
Loc: Silver Star,Mt
NO
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#147484 - 04/01/02 06:13 PM Re: Dr. K's See Best System
h2o Offline
Carcass

Registered: 10/31/02
Posts: 2227
Loc: Portland
I am familiar with what you are talking about although I have never read the book. Dr. Kageyama's research is fascinating and should be taken seriously by every angler wishing to increase their number of hookups. Alot of the results of his research have been published in STS.

Part of his research is determining how water, in its various stages of turbidity, reflects and refracts light, allowing certain wavelengths in and keeping others out. The filters he uses are designed to filter out specific wavelengths and from what I understand mimic natural conditions fairly accurately. I doubt that you could replicate his results without having filters designed specifically to mimic these conditions.

Sorry I don't have any answers to your questions, I just didn't want you to feel like you were shouting into the wind...

Par
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#147485 - 04/01/02 06:15 PM Re: Dr. K's See Best System
Fishslayer75 Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 11/20/01
Posts: 397
Loc: Auburn
I bought the book and thought it was pretty good but I didn't buy the kit that they are selling. How much is the kit?
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You don't catch fish, fishing catches you.

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#147486 - 04/01/02 07:08 PM Re: Dr. K's See Best System
Crayfin Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 06/25/99
Posts: 198
Loc: Beaverton
bought the book but not the system. I guess I just figures the book explained enough to make sense to me. Some of the combos he used as examples are my favorites anyway!!

Crayfin

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#147487 - 04/01/02 09:39 PM Re: Dr. K's See Best System
StorminN Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/30/01
Posts: 448
Loc: Blyn, WA
I haven't read the book, but I've read his STS articles, and I want to read his book.

From what I've read, though, I've never understood how he could assume that the way we see colors change at different water depths is the same way a fish sees the colors change vs. depth. They spend their entire life IN water, with certain wavelengths always filtered out... we do not... don't you think their interpretation might be a little different than ours?

Also, the pictures I've seen him publish, well, let's just say that film grain reacts to light changes differently than our eyes do, so that's not completely accurate either.

Never mind the fact that most of us are concerned about anadromous fish, and they spend 90% of their lives in the deep blue ocean, and when they come into the rivers, it's a major change for them, not only biologically, but also in what's in the background... no longer is it mostly a dark blue or green background, now it's got all sorts of colors and textures... this is a very complex subject.

-N.
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#147488 - 04/02/02 04:11 AM Re: Dr. K's See Best System
Fuzzybutt Offline
Parr

Registered: 08/20/00
Posts: 74
Loc: Gold Bar, W.A
being a jig manufacturer, as far as I'm concerned, this book is THE bible for advanced Steelhead fishermen, I have the book and read it years ago,(and still reffer to it) which helped me in creating some of the very effective patterns that I currently offer.
I'm sorry I dont know much about the filter system, I just use the information in the book as it is written, and the results have been great.
I didn't have alot of time on the river this winter, I did fish some, and couldn't pick the prime days when the fishing was good, but knowing what, and how Steelhead see, helped me find atleast one Steelhead every trip, and a few multiple fish days, all from the bank with jigs during adverse conditions,(too high, too low & clear) I know that without a doubt,if I didnt have the information in this excellent book, my catch rates wouldn't have even been close. if you havent read the book, buy it, and read it. it will help you put more fish on the bank, and dispell alot of myths, and wives tales, that fishermen have long thought to be true.

Fuzzy

Silent Approach Jigs cool
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Fuzzy

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#147489 - 04/02/02 05:41 AM Re: Dr. K's See Best System
First Bite Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 127
Loc: OR
I've read the book and there is a lot of good information in there. Honestly though, how many different color combinations does the average person use when they are fishing. Look at how effective the pink worm is. The pearl pink Okie has been a top producer for decades. Bill Herzog wrote an article in STS a few years back talking about which corky colors work best for steelhead. His answer...pink/white/black. Of all the steelhead and salmon I've caught and have witnessed being caught, pink and/or white have been responsible for the majority of the fish.

Mark
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First Bite Jigs

Nobody makes a tougher jig...PERIOD!

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#147490 - 04/02/02 12:17 PM Re: Dr. K's See Best System
Net_Boy Offline
Smolt

Registered: 10/18/99
Posts: 99
Loc: Everett,WA,USA
Hey fuzzy-
In the book he talks about how a lot of the fly/jig materials just turn dark under water and don't show their color well. Have you found brands that do? And how did you test them, short of buying them first? wink
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Matt


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#147491 - 04/02/02 01:12 PM Re: Dr. K's See Best System
Fuzzybutt Offline
Parr

Registered: 08/20/00
Posts: 74
Loc: Gold Bar, W.A
Onchor,
Other than just fishing them, I havent had them tested, and I do believe that almost all marabou turns darker in the water, and most will be almost black (including pink mark) light penatration does some strange things underwater, we know it takes light to make a color a color, unless it's glow in the dark, and can make its own image. as he states in his book, jigs are more effective in clear water, and this is true. although with the flourescent head colors, and flourescent beads, they can and do perform well in off colored water.
how many different color combinations does one need?? Mark, you'd **** yourself if you ever got a look into my jig boxes. if you think all you need is pink/black/white then you go for it.
you catch 90% of the Steelhead on what you fish with 90% of the time. rolleyes
believe me, there are colors that will blow the old pink/white combo out of the water, in alot of conditions.
its all about color shifts, sunlight,or lack of it, the fish's position, background colors, ...the list goes on. I use the book as a refference, and always keep in mind what the fish is looking at.

Fuzzy

Silent Approach Jigs There IS a difference
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Fuzzy

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#147492 - 04/02/02 07:40 PM Re: Dr. K's See Best System
First Bite Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 127
Loc: OR
Fuzzy
Read my post again, the pink,white,black colors I was referring to is what Bill Herzog mentioned. So in reality, you are questioning his choice, not mine. I think he's caught a few more fish then the average Joe and knows what he is talking about. Some colors work better then others but more times then not, it's the standard few colored jigs that perform. Most of the time jigs are fished in less then 6 feet of water. Pink doesn't turn black in six feet of water. Many times I've started out fishing a drift without getting a strike and then finish the drift with a pink and/or white combination and get a bobber down. So since this is a board of sharing ideas, what color combination will "blow away" pink/white. I'm all ears.

Mark
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First Bite Jigs

Nobody makes a tougher jig...PERIOD!

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#147493 - 04/02/02 10:26 PM Re: Dr. K's See Best System
beek Offline
Parr

Registered: 10/19/01
Posts: 51
Loc: Langley
Oh ya, jig wars! Battle of the feather fluffers...bring it on!
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#147494 - 04/02/02 11:50 PM Re: Dr. K's See Best System
Jigman Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 577
Loc: Seattle
The key is to use Flourescent materials in the jigs, nearly all the colors of marabou are available in flourescents as well as alot of the other materials such as chenille, thread etc. I always use flourescents if they are available because of their inherent ability to be seen in darker water i.e. deep or off color water as well as shallow water conditions. I agree with Mark that from my experience the 3 best colors for steelhead are pink, white and black. Both white and black fish well in clear water and off color waters, they are colors that silhouette well. I look at pink as a color that Steelhead love, with different variations of pink (hot pink, pearl pink, light pink etc.) working under different conditions. They are definitly the "go to" colors in most situations. Some of the hottest jigs over the years have been those colors or combinations of those colors (pink/white, white, black/hot pink etc.) The other color that is one of my fav's is red, it works well for both summer and winter fish and works well in combination the the other 3 colors.
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#147495 - 04/03/02 04:07 AM Re: Dr. K's See Best System
Fuzzybutt Offline
Parr

Registered: 08/20/00
Posts: 74
Loc: Gold Bar, W.A
Mark, you might have read the book , but obviously you didn't understand it. Mr. Herzog was reffering to drift bobber selection, when pink/white/black was mentioned, NOT jigs. and yes against the dark background of the river bottom, white and pink,(among other colors) show up well in shallow water if they are "flourescent" and that is if they are a foot off the bottom, achored by a piece of pencil lead!
it takes light to make anything have color, if that pink jig of yours is above the fish, and the fish is looking into a light colored background, that jig is invisable, as there is no light coming from underneath it, now is there? for those colors afformentioned, (except the black, I'll deal with that in a minute) to work, they must be below or directly at the fish's eye level to appear against a dark background. so you kill them on pink& white? you are fishing very close to the bottom, with the lighter jig against the dark background, and what do you know, it works. try that with the same jig three feet from the bottom.
(I can hear it already ...I do fuzzy all the time.....yeah right) have you ever had a fish visable, and fished over it with a lighter colored jig, only to have it come up and inspect it, and turn it down? thats because when the fish got close, the appearance changed, and it was no longer the dark profile that it thought it was, and the fish didn't commit. black on the otherhand, is best visable against a light background, and should be fished above the fish's line of sight, as should other dark colors like red, purple etc... these colors presented at or below the fish's eye sight are lost in the dark background, and aren't seen near as easily, and often missed completely.
jigman is right, it is the amount of flourescence that is in the dye color that the feathers are dyed with, that makes them appear "bright" in the water, just because something is labeled "flourescent" and looks bright to you in the air, doesnt make it so either. so it pays to know who is doing the dying, and their processes. different materials take dye differently, Saddle, Hackle, Schlappen feathers, and Marabou all take dyes differently, and dye lots, and amounts vary from time to time.
give you the colors that will take your pink/white to the cleaners? surely you jest!

Fuzzy Silent Approach Jigs There IS a difference
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Fuzzy

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#147496 - 04/03/02 04:47 AM Re: Dr. K's See Best System
First Bite Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 06/17/99
Posts: 127
Loc: OR
It doesn't matter if you're fishing corkies, Okies, worm, jigs or whatever, pink, white or black are the three predominant colors that catch fish. You are taking something that is relatively simple and trying to complicate it beyond reason. Why I don't know. Many times I've watched fish travel to take my pink/white jig. Whether it's a deep pool or shallow drifts they have moved up, down and sideways to take it. I've had several takes when I was retrieving my jig a couple feet from the surface.

There is a guide on one north coast river who fishes jigs 29" from the float. His predominant color is pink. He hammers the fish. Tell him it doesn't work.

You talk as if you have this whole thing figured out but by your own admission this last season you hooked what 15 fish in 9 trips. Not exactly staggering numbers for someone who talks as if they are the expert.

So, what is the color combination that will "blow away" pink/white. I'm still waiting for the answer.

And don't call me surely.

Mark
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