WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK ABOUT THE BROODSTOCKING PROGRAMS??
i think most are out to do there best and in the best interest but im not sure as to whether i subscribe to the idea..i mean sure its a wild fish and those are good genes but in a hatchery 99% of those fish make it out(to the ocean), whereas in the wild 10 or 20% might make it to the ocean...this is the whole idea is survival of the fittest. thats how wild fish come out to be soo much better in the first place(than hatchery fish). this is something that has long since passed in the hatcheries, those fish that didnt survive died for a reason(in the wild), they had a flaw of some sort. i just think you have to look at why are you taking the fish? is it in the best nterest of the river or you? where you are taking the fish from, would the pair you put together be better or worse than the pair that would connect in the wild? throw down some comments, i'd love to hear them.

This probably doesn't apply to all brood stocking programs, but I think that a recent Canadian study, done by Mark Chilcote (I think), was not very encouraging.

The study's take home message was that removing wild fish from the system and broodstocking them doesn't provide any additional fish that they wouldn't have produced in the wild. That's a bummer enough, but if the ones produced are clipped and destined for harvest, then it was worse than just breaking even.

I'll see if I can find the study and post a link to it here, unless someone else beats me to it.

Fish on...

Todd.

I have to diagree with ya Todd, Since it is a program to help promote the native species it that system it is benificial. In the rivers where the broodstocking takes place there are no true hatchery fish there(meaning skamainia or cook creek fish being released). Such as on the Nooch, They get a hatchery run that will last until April and reproduce in the system along with the Wild fish and with the wild fish thus producing a genitic hybred in the cross and weaking the wild gene. If you brrodstock your fish then both parents are wild and if they mix with the wild reared from the system then the damage is not as great, Being that is basically the same blood. Not a perfect program but head and shoulder abouve a true hatchery bread fish program. It also increases yourfishing opertunity for harvest which most people are after and lessens some of the pressure off the Nates in the systems where you can retain them. Just my thoughts

Todd -
Mark's study was in Oregon; it involved both coho and steelhead. Bottom line is that it is part of a growing body of evidence that using wild broodstock is not the "magic bullet" most hoped it would be. It confirms what has been suspect for 20 years - that is: using wild broodstock in many cases is counter productive. That is not to say that there aren't places that wild broodstock aren't helpful just that before embarking on such programs careful analysis is needed regarding the goals of the hatchery program and whether that is compatible with wild fish needs.

Tight Lines
Smalma

Matt,

I don't think we're disagreeing...

As noted above, the results are quite variable among broodstock programs. If you have a program that produces more fish than would be produced if the fish were just left to their own devices, then it might be a good idea. It depends on how many fish are removed from the river and what the productivity of those fish would have been had they been left in.

In the Chilcote study, what they found is that if they removed, say, two dozen fish from the system and put them in a broodstock program, that those two dozen fish may not produce any more returning adults than if the fish were left alone. Even worse, if the offspring are meant for harvest, then effectively not only have the original parents been removed from the system, but so have their offspring (via harvest). At best, the program has negligible effects, good or bad. At worst, it reduces the wild return by two dozen fish every year.

It's pretty obvious, however, that if those broodstocked fish which return and don't get harvested that they will probably be much more successful spawning than would be outplanted fish, and their bad effects on the wild fish would be greatly reduced.

I think that we must have viable hatchery runs to justify fishing, and so that we have fish to harvest. Outplanting has proven to be a bust. Broodstocking will probably become more and more important, but each program will have to be very closely analyzed and monitored to see what its costs and benefits are. If it does indeed add more fish to harvest without reducing the wild run, then go for it. If it reduces the wild run for the purpose of increasing harvest, then don't do it. In that case you may as well save the trouble of having the program and just harvest the wild ones that you're using for the program.

I think that we need to set some performance standards for the programs, and they need to be set to measure what is actually returned, rather than how many smolts are released. Then the standards need to ensure that even if a higher return rate is achieved that it doesn't come at the expense of the wild run.

Fish on...

Todd.

EDIT: Thanks for getting the state right for me, Smalma.

I personally see no benefit in steelhead broodstocking.how can their be any benefit from taking true native stock and making harvestable fish.in the case of the satsop the wdfw says that fished reared in hatchery ponds will be fin clipped.so over the last 5 or 6 years the satsop program has been killing 55 pair(i believe that is the correct number,correct me if i'm wrong)of wild stock and rearing hatchery fish.the results are a fair number of harvestable fish to be killed in the system each year,we are also starting to see the decline of wild fish in the satsop.keeping in mind the satsop had one of the best native stock rivers in the state.the next question to arrise is what are they going to do when the native stock gets to low to have the broodstock program?in my eyes we will have a river lacking in wild fish and once the weaker hatchery strain deteriorates from harvest.the river will be far worse off than if it had been left alone. scott

It is just another oppurtunity. I am all for that.

Scott,
First of all the 55 pairs that are caught for the program are not killed, But spawned then released, Secondly the fish that make it back to the trap are then trucked up to the upper West and Middle forks that are far below escapment so far there have been about 150 fish moved to those forks and evidance shows thay have spawned and headed back out so this is a positive for those forks, As they are being caught as downrunners. Third the East Fork and Decker are safetly above escapement and these are the fish being targeted. And third it sure is better then putting skamaina fish in this system to mix with the nates and creat a weaker gene pool. Now lets look at the nets in the Main stem and see that they are getting roughly 125 fish a set. and this was happening 5 days a week since the begining of the year now reduced to two days.... This spells reduction...Not the broodstock program which is a two fold program resource and enhancement. thanks

well said todd and smalma..

we have to look at why wild fish do so well..its because the fish pair up out of instincts..the hen will pick the best male she can find..thats what it is all about..when we as people come in and make that selection for them, the outcome could still be good but it might not be as good as it COULD have been.

you are right scott..it is 55 pairs, and that stock of natives has been in decline for the last decade. but like matt said they are doin decent still..meaning there's still hope and the hole taking the fish from that system helps. as for the nets issue...way to hot for me too touch.

easy limits..well i think your name states it all, we are all for second chances but this might not be the best way to go about it.

and along with what people have been saying about hatchery rebuilding and whats been said in the thread i also think we need to seriously think about what the hell we are doin to this enviroment of ours..i mean most of you on this board already know we have a problem and i'm just preaching to the choir, but its kinda sick for me. i grew up out in forks with my dad doin surveys for the quilyutes, then came to tacoma and on to olympia from there...the whole time ive seen the fishing get progressively worse. now while this is NOTHING compared to what some of you older members have seen in your life, i just can stand it. our political system, all of its loopholes, our wdfw who try..but to be honest cant do anything behind there hands are tied behind there backs. man theres just too much to state, and im late for a date, so im out

sorry to sound so anti-establishment-people but think...is all this worth losing for a couple out of the bunch of us to live well?

First off scotty does the broodstock program not give you some thing to bring your clients to?
If we did not have the broodstock then the river would probably be shut down or set to catch and release so that the native stock could be rebuilt and then where would you take you clients to fish?
All the other rivers around maybe, but from what I recall is that you really like to fish the sop. Now correct me if I am wrong but most of the time when I am down there fishing I see your guide boat, now are you going to slander the very program that keeps your business afloat so to speak?
This is just a shot in the dark but I think that most of your clients like to take a fish home right! well how are they going to do this if you take them to a river that is only catch and release?
The broodstock program not only gives you the chance to take you client some where to fish but it also gives other people the chace to help out the enviornment.

The broodstock program does more good then it does harm and just because one study done on a river down in oregon was not so good does not mean that the satsop broodstock program is killing off the wild steelhead. They are two different systems and different systems react in different ways.

Dances Out

Danceswithfish -
The latest work out of Oregon looked at 12 steelhead programs; both summer and winters so it is more than just one program.

My earlier report was incorrect as the latest Chilcote paper dealt with just steelhead. However earlier work found similar results with coho.

Tight lines
Smalma

danceswithfish,i have a large number of clients that have no interest in keeping fish,they like to catch and release.if i have clients that want to keep fish,i take them to another river.i did not intentionally try to slander the program,i just don't see the long term benefit,other than supplying the river with harvestable fish.it is also my favorite river to fish and i spend a lot of my free time fishing the satsop and enjoy c&r.i also can't see how the broodstock program is going to rebiuld the native runs on the satsop.also it is my belief that the satsop hasn't met escapement goals since 95 and hasn't shown much improvment over the last 6 years.i guess time will tell the true results of the program.scott

okay okay, i didnt want this thread to be like this but oh well...
DANCESWITHFISH, you, my friend, are an IDIOT...have you read any of those reports?? no i bet not...I think you are just taking your word for the given "allmighty" truth...well im sorry to have to tell you....but its not.
go ahead and write a SLAMMIN post back to punish me...i dont care..ive already had enough said to me but....next time you want to argue about something, go do your f*ckin research before you speak.....

oh and by the way steelie matt...those fish are not skams..they are chambers or coal creek plants...im not even sure about that though because the wdfw has banned cross-system plants...

well...the nets are a big problem and yes there are people causing stinks...there's even been a few initiatives to ban netting..but of course they didnt pass. i used to think that the tribes should be allowed to nett, because of what has happened to them in the past and all that bs..but now im just not so sure, im taking the middle of the road on this one

and how can you say that the brodd programs are doing no harm?? its been proven, not to mention suggested since the start of the damn things.

you want to talk about hanging up a rod? well along in the fight to ditch or lower netting, i would also likke for everyone to campaign against logging practices and the fisheries managment....but what the hell am i saying?!! it will never happen, we as the smart individuals are gonna get to sit back and watch this **** go down, the world will never TRUELY realize what we are doin to this planet till its gone. a lot of the things we bit*h about have so many people with so much money tied up in them that they will never lett any harm come to that program. if people are goin g to make money off of it...they are gonna do it despite the costs to others...

oh... and while i agree with you on the whole lying about plants and smolt counts and stuff, it happens... sad to say but it happens, we as white people do it too, they are not the only ones who lie about our fish...

and i helped out with those smolt counts..they were on the ball this time..

ill play nostradomus here...my prediction is that we WILL NOT have wild fish in most rivers in about 10-15 years...unless we as a society pull our heads outta our butts REAL F*CKIN QUICK!

just my thoughts...problably wrong but thats how i see things

F-man
Just so you know I have written a few reports on broodstocking, four to be excat. So dont go shooting off your mouth before you know what you are talking about.
Sl- thanks for the corection I thought you were talkin about one program.

have a good one
Dances Out

okay sorry for that dances....
do you work for the sate??tribe? who...where would you get to work on those reports? and if you did...you should atleast be able to admit that they have a down-side..i can believe through your four reports you ONLY got good and positive results..

So FB are you really ready to pratice what you preach? Put your pole away and quit fishing!! Each time you go out and catch a nate you are lessening the chances of that fish spawning. Put your money where your mouth is and put your poles away!

FC69

Did you change your name? I was posing the question to Fishermanonabike.

FC69

F-man
These reports where for a Govt. 321 class at my college.
I did find some down sides but from what I collected it seemed that the program was helping the system and the nets were the ones doing the most damage.
Dances Out

thanks a lot aunty..

Still waiting on your answer Fishermanonabike

FC69

Thanks AM I think
sure wish I could fish the broodstock the rest of this year but I suspose it will just leave more fish for everyone else
Dances Out

I thought about you today JR, nice and sunny, fish biting. Next best thing to being in school :p :p

Fishhead5

Fishermanonabike,
Well since you won't give me an answer, I'll give you my opnion. I think you're a hypocrite. You say the environment is going to hell in a hand basket. I'll bet you drive a car, one that pollutes the very air you breath. You use paper productes, all made from trees. (oh, but you recycle) You predict that there will be no natives in ten years, but you still fish. How would you live by your beliefs if you were on an unspoiled island, You couldn't. So before you go off on someone else you better clean up your own backyard.

FC69

F-5
Going to lake on thursday so hopefully the fishies will be bitting then. weather does not look to be to much in my favor though
Dances Out

Forgot this little tidbit of info there is a zipper that I like to fish back home that has a broodstocking program on it and each year the number of reds they count seems to increase from the year before so there is at least one sucess full case out there but they use salmon is this one. I would like to give more details on it but being a zipper and a small one at that I dont want to pull a Dunnington :p

AuntyM,

Here's some stuff about one of the studies from a thread a couple of months ago...

http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=007713

There's another one, too, but I can't seem to find it right now.

Fish on...

Todd.

Todd,

this may be the study you are looking for:

http://www.geocities.com/salmonidguy/chilcote.pdf

POS Clerk

hey sorry about that fishcheap69, been out biking last couple days and was a little too tired to get on the net.
anywho..to your remark,the enviroment is going to hell, very slowly luckily, and not in all places but enough.
no i do not drive, i usually ride. i drive to tow my boat and for trips, once a weekend usually. yes my moniker is true, i ride to a lot of my fishing spots.
yes i continue to fish even though my beliefs sometimes count against it, but that is a acceptable cost to me(oh man ill catch [Bleeeeep!] for that one). when i do catch a nate. i use extreme care, i have and never will net a nate, i always keep them in the water and try to release in under 20 seconds. thats the best i can do. im sure my "survival" rate is better than other peoples if thats what you are getting at.
in direct responce to your question..yes i am a hypocrit, to some level, who here can say that they are not? i dont do all i can for the fish.
and yes i would give up fishing for awhile to rebuild stocks. i see no problem in that, take my rods. as long as i knew that the right things were goin to be done (by everyone:tribes,state,fishermen and women) i guess i'd just live with it. i hope that answers it, though it problablay doesnt.

dances i have to agree with you on the todd dunningham thing...man i hate that guy..did you see the reports he did on some of those hood canal streams last year...man, what an *sshole.
FISH GODS, please smite thyne todd d.

speaking of smiting people. has anyone heard of bush's recent endeavor? he is looking to lift a good portion of the red tape from the endangered species act. lifting all sorts of building and logging restrictions...this is gonna get pretty good.