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#154375 - 07/02/02 12:55 AM Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Mike Gilchrist Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 173
Loc: Federal Way
They intend to sue to shut down 18 fish hatcheries. See their website for info, more later...

http://www.washingtontrout.org/hatchnoticepr.html
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Mike Gilchrist

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#154376 - 07/02/02 01:25 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
POS Clerk Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 113
Loc: Oregon

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#154377 - 07/02/02 02:52 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Leadslinger Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 10/21/00
Posts: 114
Loc: Wa,USA

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#154378 - 07/02/02 03:07 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Leadslinger Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 10/21/00
Posts: 114
Loc: Wa,USA

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#154379 - 07/02/02 08:42 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Steeliegreg Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 11/30/00
Posts: 128
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Kurt is a very smart individual, who has devoted his life to ressurecting our cold water species. I may not agree with everything, but our hatchery system is based on bad modeling and old science. The WDFW and NMFS both are primary sources of bad management. Our local Chinook hatchery on the Dungeness is doing all the things that Kurt alleges in his statement. We have to start somewhere, and why not with the governmental agencies that have a mandate to protect the species! Bad government, no donut!
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Flyfishing, the gentler art of ripping lips.

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#154380 - 07/02/02 09:23 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
glowball Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/06/00
Posts: 786
Loc: bullcanyon
Airplanes were not created to crash buildings or smuggle drugs but they are used for such. Hatcheries are what we as fisherman depend on to help keep runs of fish in the river for us to catch. If there were no clipped steelies we'd take wild ones home and that would be less wild fish in the river. Call it esp (or just common sense) but the big wigs that have a "say" in what goes on in the fishing industry are going to make fishing all but impossible to do. Look at that river in oregon where can't hardly breathe let alone fish. The outdoor sport is being taken right out from under our NOSES!
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Operations manager of coors light testing facility.

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#154381 - 07/02/02 10:25 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Straydog Offline
Parr

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 43
Loc: Grants Pass, Or.
Glowball,

I am curious. Which river in Oregon are you refering to in your post?
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Do what you can do...no one can do everything, everyone can do something.

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#154382 - 07/02/02 11:06 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Beezer Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/99
Posts: 855
Loc: Monroe WA
Washington Trout must be a sub-branch of PETA.

We've talked about the 4-H's with respect to salmonid recovery and certainly some hatchery practices need to be looked at and re-evaluated but to just close them and expect that to be positive step in fish conservation is a bit extreme. Why be so lazy. Hatchery closing would be easy. Hachery reform might take more work but there are a lot of you "fish rocket scientists" out there, so fix the problems.

Remember, no marked fish, no recreational fishing.

If this litigation happy group would have their way they would have all of us move back to Nebraska and let the fish recover themselves. I wish it were that easy. Unfortunately I want to stay and I want to fish.

Selective fisheries targeting marked fish along with hatchery reform and continued efforts aimed at the other 3-H's makes more sense to me.

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#154383 - 07/02/02 01:12 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
superfly Offline
The Renegade White Man

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 2417
Loc: The Coast or the Keys !!!
Washington Trout are a bunch of left wing liberal purist flyfishing mother****ers who don't give a **** about anyone else's views or thoughts. They are very selfish and were the type of kids that when growing up did not share there toys with any one else, and if they had to would run off to Mommy and Cry like a bunch of pussies that they are. They have to realize that they have to share the fish with everyone, so deal with it you Pansies !!!!!
Peace Superfly laugh laugh
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#154384 - 07/02/02 01:18 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
RICH G Offline
I believe in a lot of stupid schit

Registered: 11/05/00
Posts: 3326
Loc: Land of the Lost
I think the two major factors that have caused our wild fish numbers to decline are #1 hatchery's #2 over harvest. #2 has been caused by #1. And #1 has done alot more damage than just causing #2.

I say shut em down if it will help the wild ones come back.

Too many people are only concerned about loosing oportunity. Whenever we we have issues like closeing hatchery's or having bait bans people come uncorked.

The problem with our society is that too many people are only concerned about what they feel they should have or be entitled to, and that dosent stop with fisherman.

People are worried that closing a hatchery may stop them from being able to to kill some hatchery fish or stop them from fishing at all. People are worried that a bait ban on certian rivers might cause them to catch fewer fish or make them start fishing a new way. People dont care that these measures are in best intrest of the fish they only care about loosing oportunity.

There are only a few that really give a S##T, and are willing to make sacrifices to ensure the wild ones live on.

And thats all I have to say about that.
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#154385 - 07/02/02 01:59 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
baddawg Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/14/01
Posts: 1204
Loc: Everett WA
Anyone who believes that shutting down all the hatcheries is going to bring back the wild fish is fooling themselves. There are so many factors that have led to the decline of naturally spawning fish (is there a real "wild" fish left????) that closing hatcheries will do little or no good on their own.
The biggest single effect closing hatcheries would have would be to shut down the nontreaty commercial fishing fleet and the closing of recreation fisheries as we now know them. This would result in leaving what naturally spawning fish are left in the hands of the state and the tribes and we all know how well these two groups do when left to themselves.

Hatchery practices could be improved (capturing non hatchery fish each year for your brood stock) and be a very useful in the recovery of our resourse. I just hope "Washington no trout" doesn't screw the rest of us in the process.
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#154386 - 07/02/02 02:19 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
4Salt Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/07/00
Posts: 3004
Loc: Lynnwood, WA
Hey 'Fly,

So, why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel about Washington Trout. wink

p.s. Hopefully not too many of their members use Vision tackle or Allstar rods... :p laugh
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A day late and a dollar short...

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#154387 - 07/02/02 02:47 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Beezer Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/99
Posts: 855
Loc: Monroe WA
A source from within WDFW informed me that WT is after the facility at Tokul Creek which means the elimination of between 25-40% of the steelhead production. Talk about self-destruction of fishing opportunity for a Duvall based group.

Beezer

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#154388 - 07/02/02 03:25 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Wild Chrome Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/14/01
Posts: 646
Loc: The Tailout
There have been so many complaints from everyone about the way our fisheries are managed/mismanaged and so much blame slung all over about how we got into a salmon crisis! At least Washington Trout is trying to do something and not just living with the status quo. Those who mudsling at Washington Trout should ask themselves what they're doing to help solve our fish problems and not just sit at their PC and whine. They should also ask themselves if they are willing to give up some of their personal fishing to ensure the fish we claim to love so much can thrive for future generations. Do you really think we can continue to expand as a society, fish for food in all the locations we want to, and still save the fish? Get Real!

To those of you who don't believe we can recover wild fish, look at what's happened on Oregon's Metolius River. 5 years after discontinuing hatchery rainbow stocking, wild rainbow redd counts have increased by a factor of five!!!! That's 5 times as many wild fish in 5 years (and they're resident trout, so you can't credit ocean conditions for the recovery). This, after ODFW documented decreased genetic resistance to disease in the wild trout that live in the stretch formerly stocked vs. those fish separated by waterfalls. If the fish have good habitat, adequate water flows and minimal interference from inbred hatchery fish, they will recover.

Washington Trout, The Native Fish Society, Trout Unlimited, etc. are all looking forward toward future with healthy rivers and lots of fish. The status quo, including most hatchery production is damning our rivers' future.
_________________________
If every fisherman would pick up one piece of trash, we'd have cleaner rivers and more access.

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#154389 - 07/02/02 04:19 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
Wild Chrome
take a look at the upper Kalama. Since they stopped allowing hatchery steelhead above the Kalama falls hatchery the wild steelhead numbers are rebounding
when WDFW stopped planting skamanias in the Wind river the wild fish there also rebounded by a factor of 10+ in 4 years.

On the contrary in the Washougal during the 1960's with habitat in recovery wild steelhead numbers plumeted from 1500 to sometimes less than 100. This decline happened at the exact time the Skamania hatchery came online

South Fork toutle... after 1980 st helens eruption it was the only river in SW Washington meeitng it's escapment goals. then they started planting Skamania summer runs and the wild run absolutely tanked...

There is a direct and clear correlation between the number of hatchrey fish planted and decline of wild salmonids..

THE ELIMINATION OF HATCHERY FISH IS THE SUREST WAY TO INCREASE THE NUMBERT OF WILD FISH!!! THE FASTEST WAY TO DESTROY A WILD RUN IS TO PLANT HATCHERY FISH!!!!!

clearly seen and widely documented... it's that simple..

what is slefish is to keep hatchreies open just so you can go kill a few. That dose not promote good fishing...

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#154390 - 07/02/02 05:45 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
RICH G Offline
I believe in a lot of stupid schit

Registered: 11/05/00
Posts: 3326
Loc: Land of the Lost
Countless Alaska rivers were at one time decimated by by comercial exploits. I know at one time 1930's or 40's the Karluk river on the west side of Kodiak Island had a canery at the mouth and a weir was built to block off the river and take all of the fish for the canery. Well to make a long story short for a few years they took all the fish untill there were none left then they had to shut down the canery. Knowone knows how many fish there were before the canery but it was thought the Karluk had the most in Alaska, it bosted large runs of Sockey first and second run, odd year pinks, large kings and coho as well as steelhead. After that there were no hatcherys and gues what happened. Well it is a river the size of the Dungeness and ill tell ya that it gets near 700,000 first run sockey, over 300,000 second run sockey, an avarage of 10,000 kings over 1,000,000 pinks, over 20,000 coho and around 6,000 steelhead a year. This is after the river was vacumed of near all fish during the first half of the 1900's and with no human intervention it braught itself back. I dont know haw long it took but I know it has been a good fishery for a long time. What do you think would have happened if it had a hatchery put there to help bring the fish back?
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www.olympicproject.com

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#154391 - 07/02/02 07:17 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
cowlitzfisherman Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/14/00
Posts: 1866
Loc: Toledo, Washington
Wild Chrome, Robert Allen 3, and Rich G;

your true colors are showing again! No question, it's your way or no way! We have had many debates on this board about our different opinions, and to the most part, it's always been a draw.

But I for one, think that you guys have gone over-board with you own basis opinion about wild fish. Give us all a break! You guys have your opinion, and others have theirs. That does not make you, or them, right! The times have changed, and no matter what you want to do to bring back the "wild fish", they will never be able to reach that same level that you guys want them too again. Hatcheries do have their places, and to contend otherwise reflects a one sided vision of how we got to where we are now.

Don't want to get you guys too riled up (but I know you will), but how else are fishermen, that love to harvest, ever going to have the opportunity again with your way of thinking? We will never be able to turn the clock back, so what's wrong with enjoying the opportunity to catch and harvest fish now? You know, it's kind of like the gasoline engine, it's here now, but it will move on to some other type of energy in the near future. So what's wrong with some hatcheries remaining open to fill the need of the majority?

Human population is continuing to increase, and so must the need to increase catchable fish, be it hatchery, or be it the combination of both. Real people need real resolutions to solve real problems. We need to meet both of the needs. Let's start working together, instead of beating up everyone who believes that hatcheries are a necessary tool to supply fish for sport harvest. You may believe that wild fish are the only way to go, while others believe that hatchery fish are a must! Isn't it time that this board learns how to deal with both?

Cowlitzfisherman
Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????
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Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

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#154392 - 07/02/02 07:51 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Coot Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 143
Loc: Kelowna British Columbia
I must say that I am surprised at some of the anti hatchery replies to this question.Perhaps I shouldent be having read the stuff on this BB for about a year but nevertheless I am.
While there are some downsides to hatchery production ;but the time to close hatcheries is after there is a clear rebound of natural stocks and after the root cause problems have been dealt with.Neither of these prerequisites have been met.
As I see the hatchery downsides the key items are loss of genepool and introduction of disease.
Both of these can be dealt with through sound science and good management.
Fisheries managers have always been against hatchery programs and seek to kill them when opportunity presents itself.The perfect vehicle is loss of financial resources. But why would you trust the judgement of the very people who cause the problem in the first place by allowing to great a commercial catch,and poorly estimating the capacity of the resource.
The time to close hatcheries is after the rebound of native fish and after we have sound management.

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#154393 - 07/02/02 07:52 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
Cowlitzfisherman

you are certainly entitled to your opinion.. Hatcheries do have their place it seems that here in Washington hatcheries have their place in every single salmon/steelhead river!!! every single damn one of them!!!!!!!!!!! I know of no rivers salmon/steelhead rivers in our state that are not planted with hatchery fish.. NOT ONE!!!!! There may be one but I don't know about it.

I frankly am sick to death of people talking about the need for harvest opportunity.. Seems to me that opportunities for harvest have done nothing but increase the last 3 years!! What I object to is that WDFW is doing absolutely nothing not one damn thing to save wild salmon and steelhead.. if they refuse to obey the federal law then I say to hell with them and their hatcheries...

My colors have been showing for a long time . I have never hid them from anyone. In fact i am damn proud of them.. Because what I believe is based on the best available science. Wild fish have a proven record of recovering very quickly when hatchery plants are eliminated. You cannot deny that! Wild runs also have a history of going in the tank when hatchery fish are added.. That also you cannot deny.. If we were to do one thing to save our wild fish the single best thing we could do would be to shut down hatcheries!!!!!

Anyone who has a problem with that has a problem with science!

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#154394 - 07/02/02 08:11 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
RICH G Offline
I believe in a lot of stupid schit

Registered: 11/05/00
Posts: 3326
Loc: Land of the Lost
Me too Im sick of harvest ,harvest, harvest!!!!!!!
If harvest is all people care about than our wild fish are truely doomed.

Just food for thought. For the most part hatcherys arnt even here for sport harvest instead for tribes and comercials. If for only sport harvest there would be no such thing as a hatchery.

If it wasnt for greed in the first place on all sides there would be no reason for hatcherys.

Another thing, I know of many small coastal streams that have had all the same problems as everywhere else accept hatcherys. All the other problems such as logging, habitat degration, polution. But yet they have quite robust wild fish runs accept for a component of a steelhead run in one small river where hatchery steelhead have been introduced. The component of wild steelhead that came at the same time as the hatchery fish have now almost disapeared.
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