Check

 

Defiance Boats!

LURECHARGE!

THE PP OUTDOOR FORUMS

Kast Gear!

Power Pro Shimano Reels G Loomis Rods

  Willie boats! Puffballs!

 

Three Rivers Marine

 

 
Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >
Topic Options
Rate This Topic
#154375 - 07/02/02 12:55 AM Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Mike Gilchrist Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 175
Loc: Federal Way
They intend to sue to shut down 18 fish hatcheries. See their website for info, more later...

http://www.washingtontrout.org/hatchnoticepr.html
_________________________
Mike Gilchrist

Top
#154376 - 07/02/02 01:25 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
POS Clerk Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 113
Loc: Oregon

Top
#154377 - 07/02/02 02:52 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Leadslinger Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 10/21/00
Posts: 114
Loc: Wa,USA

Top
#154378 - 07/02/02 03:07 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Leadslinger Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 10/21/00
Posts: 114
Loc: Wa,USA

Top
#154379 - 07/02/02 08:42 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Steeliegreg Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 11/30/00
Posts: 128
Loc: Port Angeles, WA
Kurt is a very smart individual, who has devoted his life to ressurecting our cold water species. I may not agree with everything, but our hatchery system is based on bad modeling and old science. The WDFW and NMFS both are primary sources of bad management. Our local Chinook hatchery on the Dungeness is doing all the things that Kurt alleges in his statement. We have to start somewhere, and why not with the governmental agencies that have a mandate to protect the species! Bad government, no donut!
_________________________
Flyfishing, the gentler art of ripping lips.

Top
#154380 - 07/02/02 09:23 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
glowball Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/06/00
Posts: 786
Loc: bullcanyon
Airplanes were not created to crash buildings or smuggle drugs but they are used for such. Hatcheries are what we as fisherman depend on to help keep runs of fish in the river for us to catch. If there were no clipped steelies we'd take wild ones home and that would be less wild fish in the river. Call it esp (or just common sense) but the big wigs that have a "say" in what goes on in the fishing industry are going to make fishing all but impossible to do. Look at that river in oregon where can't hardly breathe let alone fish. The outdoor sport is being taken right out from under our NOSES!
_________________________
There's no head like steelhead!
Operations manager of coors light testing facility.

Top
#154381 - 07/02/02 10:25 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Straydog Offline
Parr

Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 43
Loc: Grants Pass, Or.
Glowball,

I am curious. Which river in Oregon are you refering to in your post?
_________________________
Do what you can do...no one can do everything, everyone can do something.

Top
#154382 - 07/02/02 11:06 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Beezer Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/99
Posts: 855
Loc: Monroe WA
Washington Trout must be a sub-branch of PETA.

We've talked about the 4-H's with respect to salmonid recovery and certainly some hatchery practices need to be looked at and re-evaluated but to just close them and expect that to be positive step in fish conservation is a bit extreme. Why be so lazy. Hatchery closing would be easy. Hachery reform might take more work but there are a lot of you "fish rocket scientists" out there, so fix the problems.

Remember, no marked fish, no recreational fishing.

If this litigation happy group would have their way they would have all of us move back to Nebraska and let the fish recover themselves. I wish it were that easy. Unfortunately I want to stay and I want to fish.

Selective fisheries targeting marked fish along with hatchery reform and continued efforts aimed at the other 3-H's makes more sense to me.

Top
#154383 - 07/02/02 01:12 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
superfly Offline
The Renegade White Man

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 2424
Loc: The Coast or the Keys !!!
Washington Trout are a bunch of left wing liberal purist flyfishing mother****ers who don't give a **** about anyone else's views or thoughts. They are very selfish and were the type of kids that when growing up did not share there toys with any one else, and if they had to would run off to Mommy and Cry like a bunch of pussies that they are. They have to realize that they have to share the fish with everyone, so deal with it you Pansies !!!!!
Peace Superfly laugh laugh
_________________________
Facebook/Superfly Guides


360-888-7772

Stay Tuned for upcoming Hunts & Fishing info...........

New website & Channel Dropping soon !

Stay tuned for Turkey, Bear & Deer Hunts Along with Guided Sport Fishing.

Book Release Prior to Christmas 2021






Top
#154384 - 07/02/02 01:18 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


I think the two major factors that have caused our wild fish numbers to decline are #1 hatchery's #2 over harvest. #2 has been caused by #1. And #1 has done alot more damage than just causing #2.

I say shut em down if it will help the wild ones come back.

Too many people are only concerned about loosing oportunity. Whenever we we have issues like closeing hatchery's or having bait bans people come uncorked.

The problem with our society is that too many people are only concerned about what they feel they should have or be entitled to, and that dosent stop with fisherman.

People are worried that closing a hatchery may stop them from being able to to kill some hatchery fish or stop them from fishing at all. People are worried that a bait ban on certian rivers might cause them to catch fewer fish or make them start fishing a new way. People dont care that these measures are in best intrest of the fish they only care about loosing oportunity.

There are only a few that really give a S##T, and are willing to make sacrifices to ensure the wild ones live on.

And thats all I have to say about that.

Top
#154385 - 07/02/02 01:59 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
baddawg Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 12/14/01
Posts: 1204
Loc: Everett WA
Anyone who believes that shutting down all the hatcheries is going to bring back the wild fish is fooling themselves. There are so many factors that have led to the decline of naturally spawning fish (is there a real "wild" fish left????) that closing hatcheries will do little or no good on their own.
The biggest single effect closing hatcheries would have would be to shut down the nontreaty commercial fishing fleet and the closing of recreation fisheries as we now know them. This would result in leaving what naturally spawning fish are left in the hands of the state and the tribes and we all know how well these two groups do when left to themselves.

Hatchery practices could be improved (capturing non hatchery fish each year for your brood stock) and be a very useful in the recovery of our resourse. I just hope "Washington no trout" doesn't screw the rest of us in the process.
_________________________
bawddawg, no biscuit!

Top
#154386 - 07/02/02 02:19 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
4Salt Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/07/00
Posts: 3009
Loc: Lynnwood, WA
Hey 'Fly,

So, why don't you tell us how you REALLY feel about Washington Trout. wink

p.s. Hopefully not too many of their members use Vision tackle or Allstar rods... :p laugh
_________________________
A day late and a dollar short...

Top
#154387 - 07/02/02 02:47 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Beezer Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/99
Posts: 855
Loc: Monroe WA
A source from within WDFW informed me that WT is after the facility at Tokul Creek which means the elimination of between 25-40% of the steelhead production. Talk about self-destruction of fishing opportunity for a Duvall based group.

Beezer

Top
#154388 - 07/02/02 03:25 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Wild Chrome Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/14/01
Posts: 646
Loc: The Tailout
There have been so many complaints from everyone about the way our fisheries are managed/mismanaged and so much blame slung all over about how we got into a salmon crisis! At least Washington Trout is trying to do something and not just living with the status quo. Those who mudsling at Washington Trout should ask themselves what they're doing to help solve our fish problems and not just sit at their PC and whine. They should also ask themselves if they are willing to give up some of their personal fishing to ensure the fish we claim to love so much can thrive for future generations. Do you really think we can continue to expand as a society, fish for food in all the locations we want to, and still save the fish? Get Real!

To those of you who don't believe we can recover wild fish, look at what's happened on Oregon's Metolius River. 5 years after discontinuing hatchery rainbow stocking, wild rainbow redd counts have increased by a factor of five!!!! That's 5 times as many wild fish in 5 years (and they're resident trout, so you can't credit ocean conditions for the recovery). This, after ODFW documented decreased genetic resistance to disease in the wild trout that live in the stretch formerly stocked vs. those fish separated by waterfalls. If the fish have good habitat, adequate water flows and minimal interference from inbred hatchery fish, they will recover.

Washington Trout, The Native Fish Society, Trout Unlimited, etc. are all looking forward toward future with healthy rivers and lots of fish. The status quo, including most hatchery production is damning our rivers' future.
_________________________
If every fisherman would pick up one piece of trash, we'd have cleaner rivers and more access.

Top
#154389 - 07/02/02 04:19 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
Wild Chrome
take a look at the upper Kalama. Since they stopped allowing hatchery steelhead above the Kalama falls hatchery the wild steelhead numbers are rebounding
when WDFW stopped planting skamanias in the Wind river the wild fish there also rebounded by a factor of 10+ in 4 years.

On the contrary in the Washougal during the 1960's with habitat in recovery wild steelhead numbers plumeted from 1500 to sometimes less than 100. This decline happened at the exact time the Skamania hatchery came online

South Fork toutle... after 1980 st helens eruption it was the only river in SW Washington meeitng it's escapment goals. then they started planting Skamania summer runs and the wild run absolutely tanked...

There is a direct and clear correlation between the number of hatchrey fish planted and decline of wild salmonids..

THE ELIMINATION OF HATCHERY FISH IS THE SUREST WAY TO INCREASE THE NUMBERT OF WILD FISH!!! THE FASTEST WAY TO DESTROY A WILD RUN IS TO PLANT HATCHERY FISH!!!!!

clearly seen and widely documented... it's that simple..

what is slefish is to keep hatchreies open just so you can go kill a few. That dose not promote good fishing...

Top
#154390 - 07/02/02 05:45 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Countless Alaska rivers were at one time decimated by by comercial exploits. I know at one time 1930's or 40's the Karluk river on the west side of Kodiak Island had a canery at the mouth and a weir was built to block off the river and take all of the fish for the canery. Well to make a long story short for a few years they took all the fish untill there were none left then they had to shut down the canery. Knowone knows how many fish there were before the canery but it was thought the Karluk had the most in Alaska, it bosted large runs of Sockey first and second run, odd year pinks, large kings and coho as well as steelhead. After that there were no hatcherys and gues what happened. Well it is a river the size of the Dungeness and ill tell ya that it gets near 700,000 first run sockey, over 300,000 second run sockey, an avarage of 10,000 kings over 1,000,000 pinks, over 20,000 coho and around 6,000 steelhead a year. This is after the river was vacumed of near all fish during the first half of the 1900's and with no human intervention it braught itself back. I dont know haw long it took but I know it has been a good fishery for a long time. What do you think would have happened if it had a hatchery put there to help bring the fish back?

Top
#154391 - 07/02/02 07:17 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
cowlitzfisherman Offline
Three Time Spawner

Registered: 06/14/00
Posts: 1866
Loc: Toledo, Washington
Wild Chrome, Robert Allen 3, and Rich G;

your true colors are showing again! No question, it's your way or no way! We have had many debates on this board about our different opinions, and to the most part, it's always been a draw.

But I for one, think that you guys have gone over-board with you own basis opinion about wild fish. Give us all a break! You guys have your opinion, and others have theirs. That does not make you, or them, right! The times have changed, and no matter what you want to do to bring back the "wild fish", they will never be able to reach that same level that you guys want them too again. Hatcheries do have their places, and to contend otherwise reflects a one sided vision of how we got to where we are now.

Don't want to get you guys too riled up (but I know you will), but how else are fishermen, that love to harvest, ever going to have the opportunity again with your way of thinking? We will never be able to turn the clock back, so what's wrong with enjoying the opportunity to catch and harvest fish now? You know, it's kind of like the gasoline engine, it's here now, but it will move on to some other type of energy in the near future. So what's wrong with some hatcheries remaining open to fill the need of the majority?

Human population is continuing to increase, and so must the need to increase catchable fish, be it hatchery, or be it the combination of both. Real people need real resolutions to solve real problems. We need to meet both of the needs. Let's start working together, instead of beating up everyone who believes that hatcheries are a necessary tool to supply fish for sport harvest. You may believe that wild fish are the only way to go, while others believe that hatchery fish are a must! Isn't it time that this board learns how to deal with both?

Cowlitzfisherman
Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????
_________________________
Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Top
#154392 - 07/02/02 07:51 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Coot Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 05/23/01
Posts: 143
Loc: Kelowna British Columbia
I must say that I am surprised at some of the anti hatchery replies to this question.Perhaps I shouldent be having read the stuff on this BB for about a year but nevertheless I am.
While there are some downsides to hatchery production ;but the time to close hatcheries is after there is a clear rebound of natural stocks and after the root cause problems have been dealt with.Neither of these prerequisites have been met.
As I see the hatchery downsides the key items are loss of genepool and introduction of disease.
Both of these can be dealt with through sound science and good management.
Fisheries managers have always been against hatchery programs and seek to kill them when opportunity presents itself.The perfect vehicle is loss of financial resources. But why would you trust the judgement of the very people who cause the problem in the first place by allowing to great a commercial catch,and poorly estimating the capacity of the resource.
The time to close hatcheries is after the rebound of native fish and after we have sound management.

Top
#154393 - 07/02/02 07:52 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
Cowlitzfisherman

you are certainly entitled to your opinion.. Hatcheries do have their place it seems that here in Washington hatcheries have their place in every single salmon/steelhead river!!! every single damn one of them!!!!!!!!!!! I know of no rivers salmon/steelhead rivers in our state that are not planted with hatchery fish.. NOT ONE!!!!! There may be one but I don't know about it.

I frankly am sick to death of people talking about the need for harvest opportunity.. Seems to me that opportunities for harvest have done nothing but increase the last 3 years!! What I object to is that WDFW is doing absolutely nothing not one damn thing to save wild salmon and steelhead.. if they refuse to obey the federal law then I say to hell with them and their hatcheries...

My colors have been showing for a long time . I have never hid them from anyone. In fact i am damn proud of them.. Because what I believe is based on the best available science. Wild fish have a proven record of recovering very quickly when hatchery plants are eliminated. You cannot deny that! Wild runs also have a history of going in the tank when hatchery fish are added.. That also you cannot deny.. If we were to do one thing to save our wild fish the single best thing we could do would be to shut down hatcheries!!!!!

Anyone who has a problem with that has a problem with science!

Top
#154394 - 07/02/02 08:11 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Me too Im sick of harvest ,harvest, harvest!!!!!!!
If harvest is all people care about than our wild fish are truely doomed.

Just food for thought. For the most part hatcherys arnt even here for sport harvest instead for tribes and comercials. If for only sport harvest there would be no such thing as a hatchery.

If it wasnt for greed in the first place on all sides there would be no reason for hatcherys.

Another thing, I know of many small coastal streams that have had all the same problems as everywhere else accept hatcherys. All the other problems such as logging, habitat degration, polution. But yet they have quite robust wild fish runs accept for a component of a steelhead run in one small river where hatchery steelhead have been introduced. The component of wild steelhead that came at the same time as the hatchery fish have now almost disapeared.

Top
#154395 - 07/02/02 09:04 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


How many fish do you harvest oriented anglers need anyways to sustain your need to kill and eat fish.

I myself combineing salmon, steelhead, trout and all species of bottom fish on avarage kill maybe 20 to 25 fish a year tops. My family of 3 eats fish about once a week and eat fish I catch about 95% of the time.

Top
#154396 - 07/02/02 09:39 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Cigar Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 09/01/01
Posts: 369
Loc: Shoreline, Wa.
RIGHT ON RICH!!!!

I wouldn't mind seeing some state salmon hatcheries close down....and they can start with
the one in Issaquah!!! I'am sick and tired of watching our tax dollars flushed down the drink
every year on hatcheries that have and will always
have poor water quality and continue to put weak fish into the system. mad

Cigar confused
_________________________
"Always on a mission to go fishin"

Top
#154397 - 07/02/02 10:10 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Wild Chrome Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/14/01
Posts: 646
Loc: The Tailout
Cowlitz,
So glad to see your posts again! (Really!) I think you can state the case for hatcheries as well as anyone and I sometimes have to actually think about the "Big Picture" before I can respond to your ideas. To me, however, the big picture includes the condition of our rivers and fish populations decades from now, when we will be judged on our actions or inaction. You mentioned filling the need of the majority. The majority of people in the northwest 1) don't fish, 2) want their tax revenues spent on education, transportation, and social services, and 3) think a salmon is a fish that returns to the place it was born to spawn and die. They actually derive inspiration from that!

If you still think the "majority" need fish for harvest, how about the financial practicality of sustaining the current level of harvest into the next century? How many more fishermen will there be in 2102? 4 times as many? 5? Are we 21st century anglers actually the minority? Is each 22nd century angler going to be entitled to 30 salmon/year? Who is going to pay for maybe 5 times the hatchery production we have now? The expense of running hatcheries is already accelerating at a rate that is forcing closures in Washington and Oregon. Lastly, how many more wild fish stocks will disappear to ensure the future fishermen get to tag several fish per month?

I anxiously await your reply!
_________________________
If every fisherman would pick up one piece of trash, we'd have cleaner rivers and more access.

Top
#154398 - 07/02/02 10:17 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Thumper Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 340
Loc: Vancouver, WA
"If we were to do one thing to save our wild fish the single best thing we could do would be to shut down hatcheries!!!!! Anyone who has a problem with that has a problem with science!"

I just love the balanced, scientific and open-minded view that Rob Allen and his nutso wild fish fanatics have. Unbelievable!
_________________________
Jack

Please join CCA. After only 18 months total Pacific Northwest membership is over 7,000. We need you!

The walls of death have got to go!

Top
#154399 - 07/02/02 11:20 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Leadslinger Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 10/21/00
Posts: 114
Loc: Wa,USA
Some of you guys need to get down off your moral superiorty soapbox.

Rich,you kill and eat more fish than I do.i have to ask you,since you seem to catch alot of fish, what do you do with the hatchery fish that you don't eat?Do you release them unharmed or what?

I eat my share of fish,but my freezer is full of salmon from the salt.I have another trip,for chinook next week.I probably won't bonk any steelhead I catch this year.I fish for sport,not meat.

I do not want to lose my sport in an effort that I do not believe will have any positive effect on wild stocks.Remove dams and nets,restoring habitat and nutrients to the river will help.killing off the sportfishing interest won't.

Top
#154400 - 07/02/02 11:32 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Sparkey Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/06/99
Posts: 1273
Loc: Western Washington
I've kept my distance from this discussion but I have decided to enter the fracus.

I must say that I agree with Rich...to me fishing is so much more about catching and killing fish and to me wild fish are so much more prized as not only a quarry but as an organism and it is OUR duty to fight for their long term survival. If you do not agree, sell your driftboat or sled, your steelhead and salmon rods and take up trout fishing at the local lowland lake.

Is Washington Trout's call for the closing of so many hatcheries truly necassary??...probally not. We all know there are succesful hatcheries and unsuccesful hatcheries (succesful being measured in benefits to sportsmen with as little if any detriment to wild fish populations). Succes is usually determined by many factors and yet at sometimes, success can come from the fact that a hatchery is isolated from wild fish populations.

Leadslinger-
You totally contradict yourself...at one point you tell Rich that he eats more fish then yourself but in the next paragraph you state you have a freezer full of salmon caught from Puget Sound. Last time I checked, Puget Sound did NOT have selective fisheries and some of those fish could be wild...how does that make you any better then Rich???? I would rather you kill a hatchery steelhead then a wild salmon...

...I still dont get how you can you fish for sport when prior you state you have a freezer full of salmon?? Sure do hope those fish can eaten up and not thrown away!! mad
_________________________
Ryan S. Petzold
aka Sparkey and/or Special

Top
#154401 - 07/02/02 11:55 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
Rich G -
Welcome back glad to see you posting again!

However, your recent post illustrates clearly why hatchery fish are needed in today's society. On the surface taking 2 fish a month doesn't seem excessive but consider the following: there are easily 400,000 anglers in the state (most likely over 1/2 million). At 25 fish per angler per year that would be 10,000,000 fish a year! Doubt that even Washngton's hatchery program can support that kind of consumptive recreation; the wild resource certainly can not. It seems to me that the first step in reducing the spiralling increase of hatchery production is to look at how the fish are allocated. This is even more critical if we want to intelligently reduce or change production levels.

Are there problems with the exist hatchery program? -certainly.
Are changes needed? - of course.
Do we need to eliminate all hatchery fish? - I'm not so sure.

This knee jerk reaction of eliminating all hatchery fish because of the problems (even wide spread problems) with fish is not neccessarily the most productive approach. Clearly urban sprawl, water issues, aggressive land management, etc have all contributed greatly to the current state of our wild fish resources. Should we stop all building, stop using water or electric, stop using wood products - off course not. What is needed is some careful thought and examination of all of the issues and starting down a more balanced path. In the hatchery arena that may mean examining the causes of the detrimental impacts on the wild fish by hatcheries and setting about reducing those impacts. Actions depending on the situation may mean elimination of some programs, downsizing others, changing brood stocks, planting strategies, etc. The specifics are for a later discussion. Once we as a group come to grips with the need for change we have made the first and hardest step.

Remember it took nealry 150 years to bring us to this state and it unlikely that there are any easy fixes. Likely it will mean careful consideration followed by changes in a broad spectrum of the 4 Hs. I would much prefer to see a more balanced in this rebuilding effort. Clearly adjustments in the hatchery and harvest arena is needed but the habitat arena can not continued to ignored. I've seem very little meaningful changes in land management issues - at best all that is being proposed is slowing down the destruction of key fish habitat.

I'm more than willing to do more than my fair share (reducing my fishing impacts!) but any fish recovery success is dependent on the rest of society willingness to meet me part way. Don't see that happening.

My 2 cents
Tight lines
Smalma

Top
#154402 - 07/03/02 12:13 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
ramprat Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 178
Loc: Graham
I Agree lets get rid of all the hatcherys, after all, native fish are more able to survive the cycle of life than weak hatchery stocks. But only after we remove the obstacles that made it necesary to have hatcherys in the first place. Lets see First the dams would have to go then the nets all of them Then clearcut logging Then We would have to have a drawing to see who could fish what year as there are way to many fisherman nowadays. No problem perfect solution!
Ramprat
_________________________
Proud Life time N.R.A. member For over 25 years.

Top
#154403 - 07/03/02 12:13 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Leadslinger Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 10/21/00
Posts: 114
Loc: Wa,USA
I did not say Puget Sound.I said the salt.Westport.Next week Canada.It doesn't take many large fish to fill a freezer.Don't you know?

You actually want to speculate that these fish are wild?You have no idea.No clue.

Yes,I fish for sport,not meat.That is why I release fish that I don't eat,yet still continue to fish.

I did not attack Rich,as you tried with me.I refuted his agrument about harvest,harveat,harvest being the motive for my opposition to closing down the hatcheries.

I did not lie or contradict myself.Rich stated a figure on what he kept.it is more than what I will keep.

I enjoy an argument and will not give up the moral highground to an opposing viewpoint if it is not warranted.Don't take it personal.

Top
#154404 - 07/03/02 12:25 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Jumbo Offline
Smolt

Registered: 04/20/01
Posts: 96
Loc: Seattle, Wa
In reading the posts it seems clear that some of us are like wild steelhead and others are like hatchery fish.

Kudos to RA3, Rich G. etc.

some of us may indeed be genetically superior
_________________________
enjoy!

Top
#154405 - 07/03/02 12:56 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Dogfish Offline
Poodle Smolt

Registered: 05/03/01
Posts: 10979
Loc: McCleary, WA
Both sides have made some good points, so how about this.

1. Designate some rivers as hatchery only rivers to satisfy the folks who would want to catch an kill a few fish for home. These would be rivers with the lowest chance of recovery of the wild runs based on scientific factors. Stock the holy hell out of them, producing a sporting opportunity for the masses. Choose these rivers so that each region has at least two or three.

2. Close a select number of rivers to all fishing, including negotiated netting moratoriums with the tribes that use those rivers, for 2 complete generation cycles, meaning 8 years. These rivers would have the best chance of recovery for their wild runs.

3. Buy back the commercial gillnetter licenses through higher sport license fees.

4. Don't buy fish in the store. I haven't for years. I have bought some eggs in the past that were gillnet caught, but I doubt I will again. I have since learned to fish other methods that don't require eggs. I will still use eggs, but just eggs from hatchery fish that I catch.

5. Limit some rivers as catch and release only, no bait, to serve as somewhat of a control to gauge how the "no fishing" rivers are rebounding.

Just a thought.

United we stand, divided we fall.

Andy
_________________________
"Give me the anger, fish! Give me the anger!"

They call me POODLE SMOLT!

The Discover Pass is brought to you by your friends at the CCA.

Top
#154406 - 07/03/02 01:12 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
JacobF Offline
Spawner

Registered: 01/03/01
Posts: 801
Loc: Post Falls, ID
The problem is 100% the fault of tribal and non tribal commericals. Hatcheries were created AFTER the wild runs were decimated. Get the nets out of the rivers and ocean and you'll have more wild fish.

Commerical harvest is what has ruined the fishing in this state and on the entire west coast. Most likely, all ocean fishing deeper than 150 feet will be closed from the border with Mexico through Alaska because the bottom fish are in such bad shape thanks to the draggers. No hatcheries there, just commerical rape.

Top
#154407 - 07/03/02 04:19 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
superfly Offline
The Renegade White Man

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 2424
Loc: The Coast or the Keys !!!
Hey 4 Salt, those guys are such purist they would never lower themselves to using Allstar rods or vision hooks, all of you that support this group may as well get the **** off of this board because the reason hatcheries were started was to supplement the runs for harvest by all user groups.
I am all for wild fish, but how many pure wild fish runs actually still exsist, very few, you guys best pull your heads out of your asses and wake up, there is a hundred times more people using the resorce then the wild element can support, even in the best conditions. So all of you purist and washington trout ***s best pack up your toys and go somewhere else and play!!!!
Peace Superfly laugh laugh
_________________________
Facebook/Superfly Guides


360-888-7772

Stay Tuned for upcoming Hunts & Fishing info...........

New website & Channel Dropping soon !

Stay tuned for Turkey, Bear & Deer Hunts Along with Guided Sport Fishing.

Book Release Prior to Christmas 2021






Top
#154408 - 07/03/02 09:02 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9160
Loc: everett
Sure glad your not a moderator 'Fly!! This is just a discussion of what people believe, Some with science[on either side], some with just "I want", on either side. The answer will lie somewhere in between. There WILL be hatchery reform driven by the needs of wild fish, NOT by the wants of sportfishers. We can be part of the solution or just b!tch because while we were fighting each other some group helps formulate a management policy that helps neither the wild fish nor the sport fisher. There will have to be some comprimises on all sides to accomplish some changes, and changes WILL occur, with or without[my guess] the sportfishers imput.
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

Top
#154409 - 07/03/02 09:13 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
ltlCLEO Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 1119
Loc: brownsville wa.
Personaly hatchery fish do not satisfy my fishing wants.The best satisfaction comes from sneeking into a canyon on a section of a river not frequented by others and finding a wild fish or two.This is just me and I try hard not to put my self on moral ground it is just what I seek when I go fishing.

I have become intimate with some of our native stocks of salmon and w/s steelhead out here on the hood canal.They need to be shut down from sport fishing.Those waters are some of the most pristine in the state as far as logging,polution goes,and the fish still can not make a recovery!?Why are they even open?Because the state has created an artificial fishery based on winter steel head plants.

That is my big problem with the hatcheries.I see them more as a tool to cover a bunch of political based science that does not work.I believe the state is more into covering there asses and defending themselves then they are into managing our fisheries.I do know,based on there actions,that they could care less about the fish.

I would have to agree that the majority of our watersheds have much bigger problems than the hatcheries that need to be addressed.Actually I think that there are MANY small things that combined show just how delicate the relationship betweeen mother nature and our androminous runs are.Replacing culverts is not going to solve it,we need less dirt roads,way bigger buffers along the rivers etc,comeercial liscense bought buy the tax payer,seal, sea lion population controls etc..

I got to watch two poachers go into a favorite section of the skoke this year and litterally wipe out a strain of resident spawning fish.This was done by two guys and a bucket of worms.This shows me that our wild stocks cannnot stand up to the preasure of our current population.We will always need a source of hatchery fish to satisfy the needs of the majority of our fishermen.I have no problem with this but unfortunately I believe that the hatcheries are more a tool to cover the truth.

got to go to work

Top
#154410 - 07/03/02 12:27 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
TideRunner Offline
Alevin

Registered: 06/28/02
Posts: 14
Loc: Enumclaw, Wa.
This topic of saving the wild fish has been going on for as long as I've been fishing for steelhead and salmon (over 25 years)and the problems have not gotten any better. The resources are limited while the user groups have increased. This is true not only in Wash. but also British Columbia where to fish some of their premier rivers there is now a lottery to limit the numbers of fishermen and to my knowledge there aren't any hatchery suppliments to those rivers. It wasn't that far back that there was a world class fishery on the Quillalute system if I remember correctly the game dept estimated a native return of over 17,000 native steelhead the fishery today isn't close because netting is allowed and if the wild stocks in other rivers would recover they would also be subjected to the same practice. I doubt seriously if that practice will change in my lifetime because the tribes get the feds involved. To get rid of all the hatcheries is not the answer to saving the wild fish better hatchery management and practices will help using native brood stock. I know some of you have fished the Quinault. Thats what they do and it's a great fishery even though it's netted heavy. Before jumping on the band wagon to get rid of all the hatcheries at this point you should ponder on what you are willing to give up since you are at the bottom of this food chain, and if there are fishermen who quit fishing due to a lack of opportunity that is less support for the resourses. It is not a win for us or the fish.
_________________________
TideRunner

Top
#154411 - 07/03/02 01:48 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Wild Chrome Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/14/01
Posts: 646
Loc: The Tailout
Just for the record, Washington Trout is pushing for the closing of what, 10 hatcheries? How many are in the state?, the northwest? hundreds? thousands? I've heard nobody in this discussion say the aim should be to eliminate all hatcheries. I certainly don't think that's necessary or realistic. I do think some need to be eliminated and others overhauled. I like hatchery fish and would rather have one jerk my line than skunk. I also like eating them. I had my last piece of a 16 pound summer brat last night. Tasted great on the grill. I've got another thawing for tonight. That said, I believe wild fish are much better sportfish and that they are the only salmonids that truly belong in the river. I'd be happy with some planted rivers and some unplanted, and I think the fish would too.

On that subject, I've heard bio's from the forest service and PGE talk about that as a strategy to recover and maintain wild fish stocks. It is also being pushed by Trout Unlimited. Essentially they want to establish certain rivers as wild fish sanctuaries with no hatchery fish and C&R regs. Here in Oregon, the John Day and Sandy rivers are two candidates mentioned.

What if half our rivers were unplanted, C&R, and received the majority of habitat restoration? Would that help the wild fish survive and thrive without eliminating harvest?
_________________________
If every fisherman would pick up one piece of trash, we'd have cleaner rivers and more access.

Top
#154412 - 07/03/02 03:11 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9160
Loc: everett
Wild Chrome, But what about ME, what about what I want, What About Me?
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

Top
#154413 - 07/03/02 03:23 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Mike Gilchrist Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 175
Loc: Federal Way
Wild Chrome:

It's 18 state run hatcheries they are after. Follow this link to see the list of state hatcheries: http://www.wa.gov/wdfw/hat/facility.htm

The link includes McAllister which is now closed.

I can't claim to know the status of all these facilities but if I run through the complexes located in Puget Sound I can eliminate the trout hatcheries down to about 22 potential salmon hatcheries. A few of the 22 left are likely trout hatcheries. So at best it leaves 4 state salmon hatcheries open for all Puget Sound.
_________________________
Mike Gilchrist

Top
#154414 - 07/03/02 04:44 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Jeff Johnson Offline
Alevin

Registered: 07/09/99
Posts: 16
Loc: Kirkland, WA
I have an idea lets point finger at everyone else.

Commercials blame the land owners.
Land owners blame the recreational fisherman.
Recreational fisherman blame the Native American.
The Native americans blame ocean conditions.
Blah Blah Blah.
When you point the finger at someone else you have a bunch pointing.

Don't take away our harvest oportunity it is our Right to whach fish and besides it isn't our fault. It is everyone else. Let's point fingers until we don't have any wild fish left. Is that a good option?

Face it Wild fish are hurting. Due to a lot of reasons. Ocean conditions, Hatcheries, harvest, land use, comercials, Native Americans. Guess what we don't control the oceans, floods, Native American fisheries(as much as we would like to we don't). Guess what we control harvest, hatcheries, land use, etc. Everyone has to give some. Hatcheries are have been proven to be bad for wild fish. We can control that.

Shame on Washington Trout to hold WDFW to Federal laws. How dare they look out for wild fish.

I am as far from a Left wing Liberal as you get and I agree with what they are doing. At least they are trying to help the situation. As for them being a group of fly fisherman. Please, if the hatcheries shut down there probably won't be any fishing to be had(which may not be a bad thing on the wild stocks for now) so how is that looking out for fisherman? That is looking out for fish. Someone has to do it.

Go Washington Trout.
JJ

Top
#154415 - 07/03/02 04:56 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


You said it Jeff Johnson,

Knowone wants to make sacrifices to save the wild fish. Knowone cares about the wild fish they are only concerned with there right to harvest. And if hatchery fish didnt exist anymore they are affraid they might not get to fill the freezer anymore.

Im tired of hearing the lame excuses that the wild fish are gone anyways, and the majority want to harvest fish so hatcherys are a must. Im tired of hearing that it is all the Indians fault or comercials fault.

Jeff is right, we should commend trout unlimeted for being willing to sacrifice there oportunity to save the wild fish. But instead people that think differently just call them fly maggot pureists that are only looking out for their own interests and want to take away any body elses way of fishing. These alogations just arnt true.

To be completely honest I would much rather see our rivers littered with fly fisherman anyday rather than gear fisherman. I would feel much better having our wild fish's future in the hands of the fly maggots as they actually care about the fish, and their future. They dont just concern themselves with there right to take from the river or its productivity. They are concerned about the river and everything inside it, outside it and all factors that contribute to it. They do it for the expierience, beauty and majic not for their right to take. Thats the big difference for the most part that shows their sincerity. They arnt concerned about them having the ultimate fishing expierience they are concerned about the health of our rivers.

I say these things even though Im a gear fisherman.

Top
#154416 - 07/03/02 07:48 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Leadslinger Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 10/21/00
Posts: 114
Loc: Wa,USA
It's funny how one side of the argument has to try so hard to paint the other as selfish meat fishermen to win the argument.I did not keep a single steelhead last year.I have bonked one this year.I have bonked two salmon this year and will probably harvest another 2-4.

Unless you can prove your point that the hatcheries exist at a substantial peril to wild fish,the character assasination is pointless.

Removing the sportfishing interest from the fisheries equation is probably not in the interest of native fish,either.Who else will push for the interests of our native stocks?

Top
#154417 - 07/04/02 12:11 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
goharley Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/27/02
Posts: 3276
Loc: U.S. Army
I'm like Leadslinger; I rarely bonk a fish. That's only because I don't care to eat frozen fish. That's just my preference. However, I LOVE to fish. I don't mind catch at release. But I can guarantee you this: if all the hatcheries close there will be NO fishing. Not catch and release, not harvest, nothing. Just hide and watch.

The best course of action would be exactly what has been suggested here: designate some wild rivers and some hatchery rivers. Other states have done it for trout for years.

Personally I'd like to see salmon and steelhead taken off the list of "food fish" and classified as a "sportfish." Just like deer and elk. If you want to eat one, you gotta catch one. Unless it's farm raised. But that will never happen in my lifetime, and I'm still relatively young.
_________________________
Tent makers for Christie, 2016.

Top
#154418 - 07/04/02 01:21 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Ironheader Offline
Alevin

Registered: 01/28/02
Posts: 10
Loc: Vancouver
Well said leadslinger. They are a nasty bunch arn't they.

Top
#154419 - 07/04/02 03:43 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Sparkey Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 03/06/99
Posts: 1273
Loc: Western Washington
I apologise if I came off as standoffish or arrogant...

It is a matter of values...what myself, RichG and others may value in our sportfishing may be something totally differnt then others, such as leadslinger.

But they are values that I am very passionaite about and will fight to protect!!!!!

Secondly, I have seen the science and the science proves that in certain instances, hatchery salmonids will have a severe & detremintal (sp?) impact on other wild salmonids.
_________________________
Ryan S. Petzold
aka Sparkey and/or Special

Top
#154420 - 07/04/02 12:03 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Religious zealots do tend to read and see only what supports their beliefs that they are willing to fight for. rolleyes I wouldn't be all that confident in the science that supports either side or even those that had inconclusive results....and I too have seen the science. wink So go ahead all of you and continue your battles and splintering of any political power we have to protect our resources and our recreational fishing....I'll take the middle ground.

Top
#154421 - 07/04/02 02:09 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


sparky "mr.passion", you make me "vomit". you need to sit down and open your picture book full of snapshots of wild fish you have caught and released and ask yourself how many of them are dead, you are trying to divide your type, the people who cnr fish from people who actualy eat fish and you are nuts, you do infact kill wild fish while you are practicing catch and release, get off your high soapbox and realize that you are part of the problem to, untill then just shut your big stupid mouth.

Top
#154422 - 07/04/02 02:49 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
4Salt Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/07/00
Posts: 3009
Loc: Lynnwood, WA
Hey boater1,

Ease up on the kid a little! EVERYONE has the right to their opinion.

This is a VERY passionate issue for both sides. So, like your momma used to tell you (or maybe she didn't) "If you don't have anything nice to say..."
_________________________
A day late and a dollar short...

Top
#154423 - 07/04/02 04:13 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


4salt, there are no "sides" to this issue, either you fish or you dont fish, if you fish you have an impact on wild fish, if you dont fish you have no direct impact.

Top
#154424 - 07/04/02 04:40 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
superfly Offline
The Renegade White Man

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 2424
Loc: The Coast or the Keys !!!
You start closing down the hatcheries and then you will see them closing down fishing altogether on those systems because they will say that the few wild fish that are there will not survive the pressure of the sportfishing even if it is catch and release. Closing down the hatcheries affects all fisherman and my livlihood at this time. Sportfishing here in the northwest is finally rebounding from the doldrums of the late 80's and ninties, and now these ninnies want to close down one of the things that helped bring it back and give all of us the opportunity to once again fish. I have probably put more hours in than most of you doing wild fish enhancement, and yes it does work , but it takes a very long time and never will be able to with stand the pounding of the masses that we have angling here in washington state, so why don't you Wa. Trout Phukkers start putting in some enhancement time on the water instead of just lobbying your bought and paid for elected officials, What you afraid to get your hands dirty ? I thought so!!
Peace Superfly laugh laugh
_________________________
Facebook/Superfly Guides


360-888-7772

Stay Tuned for upcoming Hunts & Fishing info...........

New website & Channel Dropping soon !

Stay tuned for Turkey, Bear & Deer Hunts Along with Guided Sport Fishing.

Book Release Prior to Christmas 2021






Top
#154425 - 07/04/02 05:38 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
4Salt Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/07/00
Posts: 3009
Loc: Lynnwood, WA
Hey 'Fly,

Before you go and shoot up the local Post office, stop, take a deep breath, let go of some of that anger, and read this reply off another BB from Todd Ripley. Todd, as you know, is a regular here too, and I believe that his assessment of this whole issue will clear things up just a little bit for you, and everyone else that is on the verge of having a heart attack. wink

Posted by Todd Ripley:

1. WT has been trying for years to get the impassable dam on Tokul Creek, owned and operated by WDFW to get water for the TC hatchery, upgraded to allow ESA-listed chinook to go by it and spawn. As of yet, the state has done nothing about it. That dam is in direct violation of the ESA...

2. Failures in attempts to negotiate or have useful conversations generally end up in court. Does suing for the end of operations of those hatcheries mean that they will end? The answer is no, at least not if the state decides to bring their operations into compliance with the law.

3. If fishermen want to make sure that those hatcheries do not close, don't attack WT for suing over their non-compliance. Get on the state's back for not complying with the law. If the hatchery operations were lawful, there would be no basis for a lawsuit, nothing to sue over.

Who's the bad guy here?

No one, actually.

WT wants the hatcheries to be in compliance with the law. Anyone who doesn't like that has a fairly serious problem, in my book.

WDFW wants the hatcheries to be in compliance with the law. The problem is that they don't have the money to fix them.

Is there some sort of middle ground? Yes, there is. The middle ground is improved compliance, better management with existing financial resources.

How does that come about? Voluntarily, or through a structured settlement with promises in the context of a lawsuit.

Has it happened voluntarily? No.

Will these hatcheries close? Probably not.

What likely will happen is that the lawsuit will be settled if certain conditions are met by WDFW. What they are, I don't know.

I do have a strong feeling about one, though. Tokul Creek wouldn't even be on that list if a concrete dam twenty feet wide and four feet tall was either equipped with a fish ladder or removed entirely and a different water withdrawal system were set up. WT has been asking for this ESA-mandated action for a long time, and has received nothing back.

Hence, a lawsuit.

This isn't about hatchery vs. wild fish, it's not about barbless flyflingers vs. bait fishing bonkers, and it's not about commercial fishing and treaty fishing.

It's about specific violations of state and federal laws that are going on continually, and have been doing so for quite a while. WDFW probably doesn't have the funding to fix all of them, but probably wouldn't mind being forced to fix them via settlement of a lawsuit.


Money to do that, if not new, would have to be reallocated from other places.

I'd rather see ten well-run hatcheries, in substantial if not complete compliance with the law, than twenty way out of compliance.

We'll see how it turns out...

Fish on...

Todd
_________________________
A day late and a dollar short...

Top
#154426 - 07/04/02 05:59 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Big Jim Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/07/00
Posts: 424
Loc: Tacoma, Wa. USA
I was going to stay quite, but decided to open my fingers up. If you shut down the hatcheries people will stop fishing. So where will the state get the money to rebuild wild runs? Will TU and Washington Trout fork over the money from their pockets? Not likely. I have seen science say what ever the person wanted it to say. The same with statistics. I do know that most hatchery fish and wild are genetically identical. The problem is how they live, canned in a pond. I think that the state should take every wild fish in a river, spawn them, then place the eggs in the same river. In a protected area. This will allow for better escapement and overall increase in fish. If we know every fish possible is spawning, then the runs will get better. There are some neat fish spawn cages that allow eggs to mature in the river, protected from predators, and still let in the food needed. This would be cheaper I bet in the long run too. I do have to say that most of these so called nonprofit groups are trying to force their beliefs down the throats of others. I will not support them. To me, I would feel like I am holding down a woman while she is being raped. As one final point, I have added the link from WDFW that talks about the biggest run since 1948. Gee, how did that happen if all the hatchery fish were killing the natives. And I have seen the posts on this board about how great the Columbia run of fish are. Strong fighters, great eating, and lots of them.
http://www.wa.gov/wdfw/do/jun02/jun2602b.htm
_________________________
Just because I look big, dumb, and ugly, doesn't mean I am. It means I can stomp you for calling me it!

Top
#154427 - 07/04/02 06:40 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


4Salt & Todd how many other hatcheries in Washington completely block the small creeks or streams they draw their water supply from? What nearly every single one? Hey I'm not disagreeing with the need for change in the hatchery system...but I have to ask one question. If that obstruction on Tokul Creek was removed how many chinook would it produce...anyone got an answer? I'm talking returning spawners in light of all the other problems those fish would face. But to get back to the focus of Mikes initial post...I thought this was about salmon hatcheries and Washington Trout and not a specific axe to grind?

Top
#154428 - 07/04/02 06:55 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
4Salt Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/07/00
Posts: 3009
Loc: Lynnwood, WA
Gooose,

I can't speak for Todd (I hope he doesn't mind me copying that post over here) and I certainly don't represent Washington Trout (Hell, I've never even heard of them until this issue arose). The Tokul creek thing I believe is a sidebar to the main issue. If you go back and re-read Todd's post carefully (especially the part that I put in bold text) it would appear that the BOTTOM LINE to this issue isn't about pitting one faction against another, or preventing sportfishermen from harvesting fish, or even necessarily closing the hatcheries, IT'S ABOUT COMPLIANCE WITH FEDERAL LAW!
_________________________
A day late and a dollar short...

Top
#154429 - 07/04/02 07:00 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Leadslinger Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 10/21/00
Posts: 114
Loc: Wa,USA
Todd's post about the potential outcome of the suit is one scenario.There are other posibilties such as the State,if legal to do so,may just decide to save the cost of a lawsuit and the operating expenses of these hatcheries and shut them down allocating these budgeted dollars elsewere.I don't think the State is going to voluntarily cut somewere else in the budget to save the hatchery program.Maybe they can get the money from the Feds if the Tribes also file suit.

Tokul creek is only one of the hatcheries under attack.

I personally would rather not cut the number of hatcheries down to just the ones WT likes.

Top
#154430 - 07/04/02 07:20 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
4Salt Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/07/00
Posts: 3009
Loc: Lynnwood, WA
Leadslinger,

I think you may have adressed one of the other possible scenarios already in your last post. You've gotta believe that the tribes and commercials won't sit idly by while the state decides to do away with those hatcheries. Just think of the potential lawsuits WDFW faces if they did close them. A whole lot of emotional responses, and differing viewpoints were unleashed here over this issue. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe not. Personally speaking, this thread has mainly served to further expose how REALLY divided we sportfishers as a collective are.
_________________________
A day late and a dollar short...

Top
#154431 - 07/04/02 07:35 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yes 4Salt it surely is about the law and upon rereading the Washington Trout news release it is also all about SHUTTING DOWN 100% COMPLETELY ALL HATCHERY CHINOOK PRODUCTION IN PUGET SOUND!
Thank you not Washington Trout! If all of WTs demands are enacted then good bye recreational fishing for chinook in Puget Sound as there are not and won't be enough naturally produced chinook to allow a tenth of the current recreational effort let alone any increases and this includes catch and release people. You ESA experts can twist the numbers any way you want but the truth is thats what will be the result. You all know that there is a certain amount of incidental "take" or more plainly "kill" allowed under 4d that is apportioned to many activities including even CNR fisheries for chinook or for that matter any fishery where listed chinook may be encountered. With zero hatchery chinook the truth is quite naked...zero chinook fishery including blackmouth. Quite possibly other fisheries may also be restricted further or even closed down due to this action. So lets hear it from the ESA experts... please tell us the whole truth? I for one would love to hear it. I suggest everyone read that press release closely and several times.

Top
#154432 - 07/04/02 08:05 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Leadslinger Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 10/21/00
Posts: 114
Loc: Wa,USA
You're right Goose.I had assumed that the suit was about 10 of the 18 hatcheries that create a blockage for wild chinook.That's not what the WT release said.It said all 18,ALL WDFG Chinook hatcheries,were in violation of the ESA.One of their points was that the hatchery chinook competed for survival,in the wild,with the native stocks.if that is the claim,and WT sticks to it, there is no room for compromise between WDFW and WT.It would shut them all down.

Top
#154433 - 07/04/02 08:15 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Yep Leadslinger! Everyone please closely read bulleted items 3 and 4 of that press release?!
No room to compromise. See the truth in my statement regarding "religious zealots" now folks? We should all get on our knees and face towards Duvall and bow our heads in honor of such glory! rolleyes Oh by the way I'm all for salmonid conservation and restoration...just not in WTs style...as I do hope to be able to at least fish for something....and yeah even if its only cnr.

Top
#154434 - 07/05/02 01:45 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sheesh I see all the players here but no counterpoints at all?!? Wassup with that?
I asked a number of questions but no answers? Might as well add to it. You do know that the removal of the Tokul Creerk barrier will not result in any increase in chinook spawner return until downstream limiting factors significantly change...thus until then there would be zero contribution to chinook restoration...so the changes demanded by WT will only cost significant taxpayer dollars if implemented with zero results until the downstream factors are changed. This is called putting the cart before the horse. Looks good in print but the reality is that it doesn't address the real issues. At the same time the huge majority of recreational fishers are being alienated from real recovery and conservation by such actions. Thanks a bunch Washington Trout. I will be one of the first to point out your errors and first to point out where you are doing some good. rolleyes laugh

Top
#154435 - 07/05/02 04:15 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Mike Gilchrist Offline
Juvenile at Sea

Registered: 06/19/01
Posts: 175
Loc: Federal Way
A few have come to the conclusion that this is NOT an allocation issue between user groups and they are correct. This is a law issue. Closing down 18 hatcheries would not distribute opportunity to C&R anglers because you can not have a directed fishery of any type on listed stocks without a NMFS exception.

Also, they are targeting closure of chinook producing hatcheries, not just chinook production so with closure of the hatcheries goes any other salmon production at that facilities. Most of you know that wild Puget Sound Coho stocks are not ESA listed, but generally are not healthy enough to provide much opportunity.

Part of the problem is the ESA itself. The legislation was never written to apply to fish. It was written to apply to birds and whales and species that you can get a specific tally on the number of animals that live. With fish we don't know how many there are. There are thousands of wild chinook that return to puget sound rivers every year but its not like we can send someone down to count them. In California there is a proposed ESA listing on Boccacio rockfish, but the estimated population is close to a million fish. But they really don't have a clue how many are down there either. We have a law that is not written to apply to fish and it requires judges to make decisions that they really should not be required to make.

WT is an anti-hatchery organization. They say so themselves:
"Hatcheries were used early on to replace wild fish runs destroyed by various land uses and overharvest. Not merely expensive, short-term fixes, hatcheries often help prevent wild fish recovery, and are fraught with problems that will eventually cause their undoing. By destroying or blocking habitat, polluting waters, creating massive competition with wild fish and toying with complicated genetics, hatcheries create more problems than solutions"
Unfortunately, despite Todd's post, the information I am receiving so far is that WT is going for the closures and not trying to just leverage negotiation. I tend to believe the information I am getting from my source at this point because of additional information I received in a meeting a couple weeks ago.

The meeting was not specifically about Tokul creek, in fact it was about blackmouth, but the two top officials in the WDFW made a point to bring it up (can not remember specifically if it was Peck or Koenings). Tokul creek trout hatchery is not involved in this lawsuit but a separate lawsuit WT has against the department. The official pointed out that the department does have a specific plan for fixing the Tokul creek facility and even though WT has knowledge of this plan they are going to court anyway. I have heard just about every opinion imaginable about the leadership in our department, but I will add that it is extremly unlikely that they would be untruthful about having this plan with both Senator Oke and Representative Doumit at the table.

I am not taking blame off WT for this one because of a inadequately written law. They are choosing to go after hatcheries knowing that there was no possible way to bring all these hatcheries into ESA compliance quickly. The funding has not been there, the design has not been there. It was not that long ago that we found out what the standard for ESA compliance was. All of this is going on while NMFS is still trying to make up its mind if we have endangered salmon at all.
_________________________
Mike Gilchrist

Top
#154436 - 07/05/02 10:53 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
glowball Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/06/00
Posts: 786
Loc: bullcanyon
Hmmmmmmmm maybe my eyes decieved me but someone posted a picture holding some nice chrome hatchery fish with a sh@t eating grin on their face. wonder who that was. still don't get do ya. you're fighting the wrong battle boys. This is what they want, for us to fight amongst ourselves instead of targeting the problem. Maybe we should get rid of a few other things like nets. "my ancestors netted fish so i should be able to rape a river that's in decline too" well my ancestors did the cowboy and indian gig so should i be able to put some lead in them? pisses me off!
_________________________
There's no head like steelhead!
Operations manager of coors light testing facility.

Top
#154437 - 07/05/02 01:26 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Microfish Offline
Alevin

Registered: 02/01/01
Posts: 12
Regardless of one's opinion, I find the thread insightful. However, I now question whether my practice of C&R on hatchery fish is helping or hurting the fishery. I'll still C&R hatchery fish just because I'm an old softie, but there seem to be some who keep fish for whatever reason. Keep or C&R hatchery fish - what motivates you to do either?

Top
#154438 - 07/05/02 04:25 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Dave D Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 3640
Loc: Gold Bar
glowball

What the heck are you talking about? What pictures?
_________________________
A.K.A
Lead Thrower

Top
#154439 - 07/05/02 10:35 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


uhhh Glow Ball your point being...??? Oh and its relevance to this discussion?

Top
#154440 - 07/06/02 01:40 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
glowball Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/06/00
Posts: 786
Loc: bullcanyon
i'm coming off the first page where complaints were made about harvest harvest harvest. sorry to throw you a curveball i had not read the second page and was not up to pace with your latest angle on the subject. I still believe you guys are pissed off at the wrong people. Remember my words ten years from now when being able to fish any stretch of river you want is not an option. Just being able to fish period is taking for granted and it is sad that everyone is so caught up in themselves to notice. I was just making one point about the net thing. But obviously it went over a few heads.
_________________________
There's no head like steelhead!
Operations manager of coors light testing facility.

Top
#154441 - 07/06/02 01:49 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
glowball Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/06/00
Posts: 786
Loc: bullcanyon
on page 4 of this forum woodys wayne has a pix with six HATCHERY steelhead KEPT. and a i'm guessing a client or friend of richg has one on another post on same page. those are the pics i'm refering to.
I'm not against having solid runs of wild fish, but with the way the world works today it will be tough. A lot of things would have to change that won't until they ban fishing period. Another thougt how many fish that you catch that aren't clipped do really think are wild?
_________________________
There's no head like steelhead!
Operations manager of coors light testing facility.

Top
#154442 - 07/06/02 01:50 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 17149
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Hey boater.....

Who died and left you in charge of what can and can't be posted on this BB? We've heard enough crap out of you that you're the LAST person who should go around telling people to shut their mouths.

We can all take Sparkey's posts at face value without you acting like you're the babysitter here.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

Top
#154443 - 07/06/02 02:01 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks Glow Ball laugh ! My point exactly! These people keep it up and we will only experience fish at our local zoo! DanS we all need to lighten up a little Huh? Peace!

Top
#154444 - 07/06/02 05:00 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
sinker Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/12/01
Posts: 440
Loc: Puyallup, WA
As far as the "holier than thou" cnr idiots that think they'll be allowed to continue to fish. You guys have alot to learn!!!
Never kill any fish??? Give me a break!! I don't have the mortality numbers but there has to be some that die. Odds are if that fish is bleeding it's a goner. There's to many parasites and bacteria in the water that home right in on that.
Not to mention what the stress does to the fish.

As far as hatchery vs. wild and if the hatcheries are doing damage to the wild fish is a debate that will always be there.
I do know one thing. If you shut the hatcheries down you can kiss your fishing goodbye. Just from a law enforcement stand point. Let's say you're a game warden drivin by a closed river and see someone fishing, you know they're doin something wrong. If you drive by a river thats open and see people fishing who knows what they're doing. Yeah you can stop and talk, but you don't see those 3 wild nookies in the trunk of their car.

Look at how many people are on the rivers fishing when the salmon are in. How long will it take to get a wild run with the same kind of numbers? 20yrs? 50yrs? 100yrs? All depends on the river system. Regardless it's alot longer than any tax payer, fisherman, tackle shop owner is willing to wait cause a bunch of idiots wanted the hatcheries shut down.

If this area wasn't so populated the whole idea might work but look around you. I'm amazed at the cars on the road between here and Auburn every morning. If only 1% of those people fished, without hatcheries we'd really be in a world of hurt.

One last thing:
Watch what you ask for!!!!!!!!

Top
#154445 - 07/06/02 02:05 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


I dont have a problem with the harvest of hatchery fish. If they are there I say take them all bonk every last one of them. The thing that bothers me is that many people would rather have the oportunity to harvest hatchery fish rather than have healthy numbers of wild fish they cannot harvest but only CNR.

When it really comes down to it most of the people on this board go nuts when there is a chance we might loose some hatchery fish that wernt even native to a system anyways or loose being able to use bait. They go crazy because they feel they are loosing oportunity to fish and harvest but they dont even think of the good it may do for the wild fish. They make excuse that the majority want to bonk anyways, or is there really any true wild fish left?, or only the wild stocks in a healthy status couldnt sustain even a CnR fishery, or we would not be able to fish for puget sound salmon, so on and so on.

Most people dont care about what is best for are dying out native fish but only what is best for themselves.

Top
#154446 - 07/06/02 02:38 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


dans, you seem to be very smart when it comes to these issues so i have a question for you.

where are the studys that have been done on each of these 18 hatcheries that wt wants closed that prove that these 18 hatcheries are in fact killing wild fish ?, please dont refer me to read studys that have been done on other rivers because the last time i checked all rivers were diffrent (watersheds, flow, strains of fish etc.) and i guess while your at it you can answer the grand question, why are there any wild fish in any river with a hatchery on it ?, and also, while i`m at it rolleyes , these studys show that a hatchery fish and a wild fish when spawned together in the wild put out an offspring with next to zero survival, can you say that even if the wild fish of the 2 did spawn with another wildfish that those offspring would have survived ?, and how do they know that with the wild fish strays that it wasnt time for that impaticular wild fish to be kicked out of the gene pool since it could have itself been a stray from years ago ? where are the studys that were done before hatcheries were on rivers that show that this wasnt always happening ?, i just feel you cant possibly use this study as a model for all rivers with hatcheries because there are some rivers with hatcheries that do infact have healthy wild fish runs, i am for finding out why that is and reforming the hatcheries on the rivers with poor wild fish runs and working with the state to do that rather than always being against what they are doing and it is not going to happen over night.

Top
#154447 - 07/06/02 03:28 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 17149
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Thank you, boater, for asking a legit question and asking for an exchange which is what we SHOULDbe doing here rather than splintering into a dozen factions, each only 1/12th as strong as we could be politically.

Man, this is such a complex issue that I'm not sure I have the time to write out my thoughts completely, but I guess I could let you know where I'm coming from.

I bonk a dozen or so fish a year. I bonk some unclipped kings (if they were marked, so I could be relatively sure where they came from, I wouldn't), a few hatchery silvers, and a few hatchery steelhead. I don't want to bonk native steelhead for one reason. I'm VERY critical of commercial harvesters of native steelhead because I think they are scarce enough to be looked at as something other than a food item. Since I AM critcal of commercial harvesters of wild fish, I believe it would be hypocritical of me to kill them myself. That's just my opinion, and while I'd LIKE others to see it my way, I realize that's going to take ME just explaining myself and my position, rather than screaming and calling people idiots and all those things that folks do when they can't just make a reasonable argument.

As far as WT goes, I think they are making a grave mistake, if only because they just managed to splinter sports anglers once again. I also think that closing hatcheries in an effort to restore runs is a Band-Aid on arterial bleeding. They don't need to close hatcheries......they need to operate them in a manner that isn't detrimental to the wild component of the run. Can this be done? I think it can, but then again, I'm not a fish biologist. I only know what I've read and observed myself.........and as much as that is, it still is a pretty small pool of knowledge.

I'm just getting tired of the "C&K morons this......" and "C&R idiots that......" crap. It's getting us NOWHERE fast. In case nobody's noticed, this state is in a financial bind like we haven't seen in quite a while. Fish won't be high on ANYBODY'S list to keep funding for, because WE CAN'T ORGANIZE to save a sport we ALL love. We're so friggin' sad at organizing that we just may have to rely on the COMMERCIAL NETTERS to save hatchery fish. The bad thing is, if the commercials bankroll the fight, it will be done on their terms, and we'll get the same crappy hatcheries doing the same crappy job of producing fish........and all the while the native fish will be in worse shape than when we started.

This stuff just burns me out sometimes. I remember the days when I just went and fished and didn't have to worry about this stuff.........or so I thought. With a little foresight, we might have avoided this in the first place, but only hindsight is 20/20. I'll just end my piece with a little list of things I think could improve the fisheries in this state.


I'd like to see EVERY hatchery fish marked, bother salmon and steelhead. I'd like to see the commercial fleet OFF Hood Canal when the last remnants of wild silvers are trying to run the gauntlet of nets. I'd like to see the tribal nets out BEFORE they close down the Skok to chum retention because the numbers are low. I'd like to see a law forbidding the stripping of hens for roe that DOESN'T have loophole you could drive a truck through in it. I'd like to see Gamies out IN FORCE during the snagfests that take place on the Carbon, Satsop, Kalama, Cowlitz......they could pay their own salary with ticket revenue, so don't say you can't afford more officers WDFW. I'd like to see Tribal police do SOME enforcement of their own. I'd like to see people be less uptight when they're fishing than when they're at work. I'd like people to look at a wild fish as MORE than just a meal, but as something they can pass on to their kids. I'd like to see people who release wild fish to act like it IS more than just a fish. I'd like the C&R folks to understand the value of a hatchery fish, both as a food item and as a quarry we can persue and take home.

And most of all, I'd like to see my float sink any time I want it to. Well, since that's probably not going to happen, maybe I'll just go about working on the other stuff I listed.........that stuff COULD happen. laugh
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

Top
#154449 - 07/06/02 05:28 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Divers Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/21/99
Posts: 958
Loc: Seattle
Dan S., I like what you have to say.
My sentiments exactly.
Who knows, maybe your Bobber will go down at will soon. eek

Top
#154450 - 07/06/02 07:25 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


dans, i agree, we should be working together on this, i feel the rfa is the way to go.

Top
#154451 - 07/06/02 08:12 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Thumper Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 04/08/01
Posts: 340
Loc: Vancouver, WA
"The thing that bothers me is that many people would rather have the oportunity to harvest hatchery fish rather than have healthy numbers of wild fish they cannot harvest but only CNR."

Yep. S'true. Grow 'em. Catch 'em. Kill 'em. Eat 'em. Life is simple.
_________________________
Jack

Please join CCA. After only 18 months total Pacific Northwest membership is over 7,000. We need you!

The walls of death have got to go!

Top
#154452 - 07/06/02 10:37 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


The thing that bothers me is that some people are not at all concerned with the probability that the currently depressed natural runs will never in our lifetime be healthy enough to allow any kind of targeted fishery...and this most definitely includes CNR. Meaning that guess what...You ain't even gonna get to CNR! Prime example is what has happened here on Hood Canal. We have a listed stock...Hood Canal Summer Chum....that was being slyly targeted by a bunch of "rivers runs through it" types for CNR fishing under the claim of "hey officer I'm fishing for steelhead( or trout)." Guess what? Those lower sections of the Dosewallips and Duckabush are now closed to ALL FISHING INCLUDING CNR during the time those poor salmon are in the rivers! And I'm dam proud to claim a role in lobbying to bring that about...thank you.
Sad thing is I will likely never again get to fish those portions of my home rivers that hosts very large numbers of 24 inch plus searun Cutts during the closure period. Yep...guess what ...not even CNR is allowed...but I was more than willing to give up that opportunity to protect those fish....and other than my friend lTlcleo I don't see too many others willing to do the same? I will go elsewhere and fish where there is opportunity to catch fish where my impact even doing the CNR thing will have the least impact on naturally produced fish. Peace!

Top
#154453 - 07/07/02 02:22 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
sinker Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 03/12/01
Posts: 440
Loc: Puyallup, WA
My point exactly Gooose.

Top
#154454 - 07/07/02 02:29 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sinker laugh wink laugh wink laugh wink laugh wink

Top
#154455 - 07/07/02 01:14 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 17149
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Hey Goose,

Believe me, not all the dudes fishing "trout" or steelhead on those specific rivers were "Rivers Run Through It" types. I've seen some famous steelheading names cruising around those parts, and in the sign-in book. I'll admit that I wasn't too happy about the closures you mentioned for one reason. They haven't taken ANY OTHER action that I can see to protect these fish other than to close this C&R season that wasn't really a C&R season. That's my only beef. In hindsight, and especially after seeing how some people handled the fish they caught "while in pursuit of steelhead", it's probably best that it IS closed altogether.

Something stinks on Hood Canal, goose. My only question to you is this. Why so upset with the C&R of chums on the Dosey and Hamma Hamma, when you don't seem too upset that large numbers of threatened summer chums are being harassed every time the silvers show up on the Quilcene? I don't know how many times I've seen clowns get frustrated that they can't hook the silvers there and so they start fishing chums.

I can tell you why the state has the double-standard. The have a huge number of hatchery silvers coming back to the Quilcene hatchery, and they can't just let them go to waste, so they allow you to fish amongst the threatened chums. That may not be a concern to you because I know you have found ways to specifically target silvers and leave the chums unmolested. But how about the rest of those Yahoos up there that are snagging anything in sight?

I'm sure the summer chums on the Dosie and Hamma Hamma are thanking you.......not everyone would take the effort to see that the right thing gets done, especially when it costs them a fishing opportunity. Let's just hope some more "right things" get done, or I'm afraid those chums are going to need more than your help to save them.
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

Top
#154456 - 07/07/02 03:19 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Leadslinger Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 10/21/00
Posts: 114
Loc: Wa,USA
If this suit is tried in Federal court,won't a ruling in favor of WT's point that these hatchery fish compete in the wild with endangered species stocks have a broad impact on vertually all hatcheries,private ,state and federal in any state that has endangered salmonid stocks?

Top
#154457 - 07/07/02 04:49 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Goose,

It may suck to not be able to fish but like yourself, if it comes down to it I can deal with it.

At least there are a few that are willing to make sacrifices.

Top
#154458 - 07/07/02 07:04 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


DanS
In answer to your question...the Quilcene summer chum run(with the help of hatchery supplementation) is very healthy( 5000 spawners plus on the average) and is in little danger overall even with all the idiots we have both seen on that river. Now on the otherhand I watched the summer chum runs on both the Duck and the Dosey plummet from several thousand fish to only a few hundred. Every time I went by those rivers to check on those runs...guess what I found....some urban cowboy rivers runs through it types whooping it up on those fish with their flyflogging outfits...and the fish kept getting fewer every year even though the Quil's run kept getting healthier(maybe due to the hatchery?)! But hey they had a steelhead punchcard and it was open so they could get away with it....well sadly not anymore. So the diference my friend is one of apples and oranges...the Quil chums are healthy and able to take the abuse whereas the other runs were not healthy and unable to take the abuse. Do I like what happens on the Quil? Not anymore than you do...but that situation there is more one of ethics not protection. rolleyes

RichG alraedy knew that would be your response laugh .

Top
#154459 - 07/07/02 09:18 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
ltlCLEO Offline
Repeat Spawner

Registered: 06/15/01
Posts: 1119
Loc: brownsville wa.
There seems to be one thing wrong with this discusion.We seem to be arguing to the effect the salmon are only here for our selfish reasons.They are a large part of the eco system and if we keep managing towards the fishermens gains the rest of the delicate balance could be dealt a blow more severe than we realy want to think about.In my head any more it is not about being able to fish it is maintaining the balance for the rest of the evergrowing circle to keep working!

I have not been convinced as of yet that the hatcheries and there fish are doing that much harm but the politics that come with these fish certainly is.There are alot of fisheries open based on non existant hatch fish,doing nothing but harm to the wild stock.This is an expense that scares me.

There will always be a need for hatchery suplements.But do not fool yourself into thinking that hatchery fish to bonk can replace wild fish in the big picture.I am afraid generations will regret that kind of selfishness.

smile smile

Top
#154460 - 07/07/02 10:01 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
glowball Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/06/00
Posts: 786
Loc: bullcanyon
Just curious how many of ya were thinking to yourself last year when there was so many silvers in the system, and you were having double digit fish days(CNR) that those poor wild fish are been pushed around by those mean hatchery fish. I didn't think you were. You were having the time of your life. Don't feel bad your not alone.
If you really don't want hatchery fish in the systems quit pissing and moaning to us and get off your @$$ and start doing something about it. I'm gonna go glowballing tonight and bring home a nice hatchery steely for tomorrows dinner. HMMMMMM HMMMMMMM good!
_________________________
There's no head like steelhead!
Operations manager of coors light testing facility.

Top
#154461 - 07/07/02 10:46 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


lTlcleo my good friend the real sadness is that for many of the listed runs that occur within the most altered ecosysytems within Puget Sound there will never be anything but a museum piece run that occurs for the nonfisher to take succor in. Without people fishing then there will be little other incentive for politicians and taxpayers to support the presence of any more than just that....something for the masses to "ooh" and "ahh" at in their satisfied ignorance. Salmon will always have to live within the reality of the political arena. As fishers aka harvestors(including cnr) we can choose to stand and fight for the salmon in that arena or we can choose to join the masses in the seats to "ooh" and "ahh." Washington Trout by their actions is forcing the more than vast majority of fishers into those very same seats and that is the concern I have tried to address within this thread. I simply don't want to be part of the crowd in the seats.

D@mmit Greg you sure do cause me to hang out on the river below the cabin a lot these days....not fishen just alot of thinking rolleyes laugh !

Top
#154462 - 07/08/02 09:50 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
fishingfool Offline
Fry

Registered: 01/03/01
Posts: 27
Loc: No Tellum Washington
Dan S. Who gave you the right to speak on behalf of me? This is a board where people speak their mind.If someone is out of line, there is a process that is in place to deal with it. Who died and left you the right to bypass this process?This is a heated topic for many folks, and to see how one reacts during the process of voicing their opinion, is a great way to gauge their credibility. This is my own opinion. So please allow the process that has been in place to continue, doing what it does and stop being a hypocrit. How many times have you told people to shut it an leave the board due to your heated feelings on a cerain issue. PATHETIC..

Top
#154463 - 07/08/02 12:20 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Dan S. Offline
It all boils down to this - I'm right, everyone else is wrong, and anyone who disputes this is clearly a dumbfuck.

Registered: 03/07/99
Posts: 17149
Loc: SE Olympia, WA
Ahhhh.......

Never mind. rolleyes

Nah, going to put it back.

Piss up a rope, fool, you phuckhead. Go dunk your head in the Hoh. Maybe you will get lucky and run into Tony D. and I sometime, and then you can explain your BS to the both of us. Or maybe you can accuse Aunty M of fishing with her husband in some tourney that neither one of them fished in. Pull your head back into the sun, dipsh1t. If I wanted to speak for you, I'd get a lobotomy first. mad
_________________________
She was standin' alone over by the juke box, like she'd something to sell.
I said "baby, what's the goin' price?" She told me to go to hell.

Bon Scott - Shot Down in Flames

Top
#154465 - 07/08/02 02:00 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Big Bad Voodoo Daddy Offline
Spawner

Registered: 10/15/01
Posts: 912
Loc: Enumclaw
Hey guys... What if we are lookin at this wrong? It really just seems to be a group of people looking for attention, nothing else. I dont think they really care much for the salmon, but you guys sure are giving them a bunch of publicity by doing this. Just an observation i guess.. I dont have nearly as much to lose as you guys so I might be in the blank on the whole thing. I'm mainly a trout fisher... Salmon hasnt come to me yet.

No matter what the intent is, I do hope this turns out for the better. I personally cannot stand fanatical organizations who criticize everything the public does. Usually the members are hypocrytical in their accusations anyways.

Well, good luck to you all.

Curtis

Top
#154466 - 07/08/02 06:43 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
B. Gray Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 633
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
What was the river where a similar group down in Oregon successfully managed to get a hatchery closed? I remember seeing an editorial about how boneheaded it is in STS an issue or two back. When I read that I could see the writing on the wall for us here in Washington.

Talk about cutting your nose off to spite you face. Whatever happened to the idea of hatchery reforms?

I wish the WSC still had it's forums up and running. As a member and contributor, I'd like to see the WSC's "official" stand on this suit. If nothing else, I think taking a stand against such a kneejerk lawsuit could really show the doubters that the WSC is not the elitist, anti-hatchery, organization its detractors have made it out to be. It could also be a good opportunity to gain some new members. I'm sure this is not something all WA Trout members are happy about.

Bruce

Top
#154467 - 07/09/02 01:40 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Uhhh Fool thanks for that...not sure where the connection is to this dialogue but...uhh thanks? I think? rolleyes rolleyes DanS my friend please post away laugh wink ! You cause me to think at least. laugh

Top
#154468 - 07/10/02 09:15 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9160
Loc: everett
Jerry Garcia was having an excellent time at Neah bay. WARNING.....WARNING If some folks can't keep from personal attacks {mostly you boater1] the bonking stick is warmed up!!!!
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

Top
#154469 - 07/10/02 06:02 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
B. Gray Offline
Spawner

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 633
Loc: Seattle, WA USA
Just thought I'd try to bump this one back up top to see if the WSC has any statements about the lawsuit....

Top
#154470 - 07/10/02 06:15 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
ramon vb Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 07/10/02
Posts: 125
Loc: Duvall, WA
I would like to take the opportunity to respond on behalf of Washington Trout. We appreciate the opinions expressed on this forum, from both our detractors and our defenders. Others have articulated here and on other threads some of the scientific basis for the position that hatcheries have been a factor in salmon and steelhead declines, and that their productive role in recovery will be very limited at best. My goal here is not to add to that debate (although perhaps at some other time...), but rather to just outline WT's position, goals, and motivations regarding the action at issue here: our filing of a 60-day notice of intent to sue WDFW over their Puget Sound chinook-hatchery program.

Technically, we say in our 60-day notice that we will seek "relief" from the courts, which implies we will sue to shut down the hatcheries, and that's what we said we're prepared to do in our press release (and I suppose we would be prepared to do that if necessary). But really what we're saying is that WDFW needs to start complying with the law. Their hatcheries are currently violating the ESA and they have to stop. Yes in many cases they would have to shut down the hatcheries to do that, but probabaly not in all cases. Further, WDFW has a mechanism under the ESA 4d Rule to recieve exemption from ESA enforcement for its hatchery program. They can submit "Hatchery and Genetic Management Plans" to NMFS for approval (and should have a long time ago). These HGMPs would describe how WDFW will minimize or mitigate the harm the hatcheries do to listed wild fish, and/or make the case for how the "benefits" of the hatchery program outweigh or justify whatever harm they do. They've had since June 2000 to prepare and submit the HGMPs. So far they haven't, and they continually push back their promised deadlines. (Now they're saying "maybe" by the end of this year.) If they do have a plan for modifying operations or a case for justifying current operations, we want to see it, review it, and offer input (as is ours and everyone else's right under the 4d Rule). At this point we have no confidence that we will see it in a timely fashion without applying pressure. After all, these chinook are THREATENED with extinction. Isn't time of the essence?

It boils down to this: WDFW has to comply, just like everybody else, with the ESA; they could do it by ceasing the harm they are causing listed fish through the hatchery program (even if that means temporarily or permanently shutting down some hatcheries), or they could do it by using their 4d option of making a publicly-reviewed case for an exemption. They have done neither. The goal of our 60-day notice is to force at least one or the other.

WT's sole mission is the protection and recovery of wild, native fish; we do not advocate for sportfishing interests. But we have not "decalred war" on recreational fishing by "focusing" on hatcheries and "ignoring" harvest and habitat. First, WT is not against more fish in the rivers; we simply believe that the science points us in a clear direction toward that goal of healthy, harvestable fish populations; current hatchery management will not take us in that direction. Second, even if it DID shut them all down, this suit would affect only 18 out of the 55 state, tribal, and federal hatcheries in Puget Sound (over a hundred throughout the state). And finally, WT works on ALL issues affecting wild fish, and recreational fishers HAVE NO BETTER FRIENDS THAN WT on habitat issues, and ALMOST NO OTHER FRIENDS BESIDES WT on harvest (including tribal harvest) issues.

You should all know (and probably do) that WT is involved in a seperate suit regarding the Tokul Creek steelhead hatchery, alleging site impacts that harm listed chinook (fish-passage barrier, unscreeened water intake, and habitat degradation associated with bank-hardening to protect the facility grounds from flooding). We are not at this time contemplating any specific actions targeting any other hatcheries besides Tokul and the 18 listed in ur 60-day notice. I would note however, that WDFW acknowledges site impacts that are likely harming listed fish at at least 30 hatcheries throughout the state, making them vulnerable to similar suits.

A few weeks ago, WDFW made a big stink out of fining one guy for poaching listed chinook on the Skagit River, and carried on about how enforcing the law is their "top priority." If that's so, all we're really asking them to do is look in the mirror. They will say they're "working on it" and now we're just getting in their way. Well, they've had TWO YEARS to "work on it" and we haven't seen anything yet. When NMFS adopted the 4d rule in June 2000, they gave everyone until Jan 2001 to do things like prepare and submit HGMPs. That 6-month grace period ended a year and a half ago, and now WDFW says they need MORE time (without saying how much more), in the meantime continuing to run the hatcheries exactly as they always have. How much time do the fish have? If WDFW does have a solution to propose, great. They have 60 days to propose it (I guess 50-something now).

Washington Trout is fighting for better forest managemnt, better land-use regulations re agriculture and development, and more consistent application and eforcement of existing environmental laws including the Endangered Species Act, the Clean Water Act, and Washington's Hydraulic Code. We are fighting daily for commercial and tribal salmon-harvest management that makes sense, and that will allow depressed stocks to recover. We are currently sueing the National Marine Fisheries Service over Puget Sound harvest-management, trying to reduce harvest levels and modify commercial-fishing practices. We carry out important research, and design and implement model habitat-retoration projects. In short, we are working every day to protect and recover Washington's wild fish and their habitats. Learn more about WT at www.washingtontrout.org

Ramon Vanden Brulle,
Communications Director
Washington Trout

Top
#154471 - 07/10/02 06:24 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
POS Clerk Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 113
Loc: Oregon
Ramon

That was a great response. You clearly and concisely displayed all the shortcomings of the current WDFW policies. I for one wish to lend my support to this endeavor, if you can think of anything I can do to help with forcing WDFW into compliance with current regulations please feel free to contact me privately.

POS Clerk

Top
#154472 - 07/10/02 07:26 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9160
Loc: everett
B.Gray,
WSC is still in the process of putting together a stance on hatchery reform.
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

Top
#154473 - 07/10/02 09:18 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Leadslinger Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 10/21/00
Posts: 114
Loc: Wa,USA
Thanks WT for addressing this concern.

I do not see how WT's claim that hatchery fish impact native stocks in the wild,if successful,would not impact any hatchery that is anywhere near an ESA listed stock.only 18 out of 55?Maybe.

Why would a Federal ruling be limited to Washington State anyway?

I am very worried about the possibility of the next Judge Boldt drilling one out of the park with his ESA bat.I hope you folks at WT realize the impact you will have on wild stocks if sportsmen and their organizations get bonked by a Federal Judge.

I think most of us agree that we need to look at reform for our hatcheries.Killing them off with WT's point 3 and 4,from their press release will be a disaster for the fish.

I hope WSC addresses the impact WT's points 3 and 4,concerning competing in the wild for food and survival and the impact of mixed spawning.

Top
#154474 - 07/10/02 11:51 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Nicely put Leadslinger. laugh WTs response was about what I expected. Stating that there are 55 hatcheries in Puget Sound in order to try and minimize in peoples minds the potential effects of WTs actions is very deceptive as yes there are 55 facilties that could be called hatcheries but they range hugely in scale of production and intent. The 18 hatcheries they are aiming at are not solely dedicated to chinook so other types of production would be impacted. I have one question: Has Washington Trout offered any solutions to their items #3 and #4 other than close down the hatcheries? The other items could be corrected in time and given the money...but those 2 points are the sticking point. Those 2 points all by themselves has the very real potential to shut down any hatchery located within the area of any listed salmonid. Thats been the focus of my argument and the only reply I've seen has been very vague or has taken the form of "gosh that would be too bad" to " its not likely but could happen." I'll stick with working for restoration and conservation that works for fish and fishers.

Top
#154475 - 07/11/02 01:58 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Bob Offline

Dazed and Confused

Registered: 03/05/99
Posts: 6480
Loc: Forks, WA & Soldotna, AK
Ramon ... thanks for your post on the subject. A heated subject for sure, I appreciate you taking the time to explain WT's position. I also commend you for your willingness to hop into a crowd with a few that don't always treat others with respect.
_________________________
Seen ... on a drive to Stam's house:



"You CANNOT fix stupid!"

Top
#154476 - 07/11/02 03:01 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Wild Chrome Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/14/01
Posts: 646
Loc: The Tailout
Ramon,
Thanks for your response. There are a lot of people who read about WT, TU, NFS and other conservation organizations' actions on the internet and get a very skewed version of the intent and story behind the actions because certain fishermen see only the "threat" to their fishery involved with taking significant actions to help wild fish. You really need to be vocal in the fishing community about why you're doing what you're doing. This is a good start.
_________________________
If every fisherman would pick up one piece of trash, we'd have cleaner rivers and more access.

Top
#154477 - 07/11/02 06:20 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks WT,

Its nice to know that there are groups out there that are fighting for the wild fish.

Top
#154478 - 07/11/02 09:49 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Fish Jesus Offline
Spawner

Registered: 09/25/01
Posts: 768
Loc: Tacoma
Man...this has been on heck of a thread.
It made me cry, cheer, refrain from lashing out, shadowbox, shake my head, clench my fists, grit my teeth, roll my eyes, do the one man wave, take a walk, scratch my head, ponder future fishing prospects, break out the soapbox, slap my forehead, pump my fist, yell, walk away and laugh! :p laugh

The rest of the time was spent fishing with a little work thrown in. laugh

Good thread! cool

FJ...out.

Top
#154479 - 07/11/02 10:39 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
BigShark Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 08/20/01
Posts: 224
Loc: PDX
Thanks WT
I am one of those who at least at this point believes there is a need for some hatcheries, yet if the science works, there could come a time when none would be needed. You have mentioned the forms by which your WDFW would show reason as to why some hatcheries would be exempt from closure even if not in full compliance with the laws. This I assume covers, among other reasons, those that would cripple local economies if closed. Many make no bones about the fact they put the welfare of a community above any fish. That said,
no one has as yet shown them that with good science and honest governmental support, the stocks cannot be restored and the communities remain economically viable. This is not the Dark Ages, there is enough brain power to bring this about. The money is there if the fishers will come together as a strong force to be reckoned with. Where does the 900 lb gorilla sleep?
We in your neighboring state are watching. We have yet to raise our testosterone level and our
organizational level to match yours, but its going to happen. We watch in great interest what you will accomplish. If you can show us that there will be plenty of fish for ALL in your state, your actions will become a blueprint. We must get past this "can't be done" mindset. Let us watch WT and see if it can show us the merit of their cause with positive results.

Top
#154480 - 07/12/02 12:16 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Well I have to agree that yes it does come down to fighting for wild fish laugh . I will do my part in the way I see as the right path amongst the several that are possible choices...hope you can respect that? laugh And my greatest hope is that in the end we will all like the results of our personal endeavors towards that end

Top
#154481 - 07/12/02 04:32 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Big Jim Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/07/00
Posts: 424
Loc: Tacoma, Wa. USA
You know, I have always wondered about these non profit groups and their missions. WT makes good points, but still does nothing to solve the problem. So they sue they state. Where do they think WDFW gets the money to fight these law suits? How many improvements good be made to hatcheries with the ten of thousands of dollars this will cost? I think any group that sues any person or agency and loses, should foot the bill for both sides. That will end the sue happy nature of this country. WT and others should spend their time working with the state and not against it. We have many biased network TV channels to help air the problems, so get them involved also.
_________________________
Just because I look big, dumb, and ugly, doesn't mean I am. It means I can stomp you for calling me it!

Top
#154482 - 07/12/02 10:51 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
Big Jim The point is that WT has tried to work with the state for two years in this issue and WDFW hasignored them just like they ignore every ofther conservation concern until it's too late. WDFW is 2 years late on developing a plan for solving the problems with these hatcheries and they have no timeline for coming up with a plan. here is an analogy of what they are doing.
They have gone 2 years without paying taxes without so much as filing extention.
They are breaking the law purposfully and intentionally and it's time they get nailed to the wall for it.

Top
#154483 - 07/12/02 07:16 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
OntheColumbia Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 11/02/01
Posts: 251
Loc: Columbia Co. Oregon
Ramon, Thanks for the insightful reply. It should clearup a lot of misinformation, and I appreciate knowing more now about WT and the activities you're involved in.

Big Jim, if WFG had taken the steps they KNEW were needed and necessary they never would have been sued. Fortunately, we citizens have the right to compel our government to obey its own laws. Seems funny that you would have a problem with that basic right. The question you should be asking is -- why has Washington drug its feet on this matter for so long?

I'll bet my money that this won't go before a judge for a decision though. Instead it will be a negociated settlement as these sorts of things nearly always are.
_________________________

Top
#154484 - 07/13/02 12:49 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


posted 07-11-2002 08:06 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Where will all the fishers go if those Puget Sound hatcheries close! Simple answer... where they can fish. Let's see...they won't be able to even cnr in Puget Sound so where would they go? Well the Olympic peninsula is one place...southwest Washington is another....simple fact is that a majority of those fishers will displace to other opportunities. Since fishing opportunity on those rivers is based upon scientifically predicted fishing effort and catch per unit effort the simple result is the inevitable shortening of seasons and in the case of wild fish a likelihood of prohibitions at times against any fishing including cnr. Wild fish release which I have no problem with will also be imposed but even that may not keep those fish from being put at risk of ESA listing.
--------------------

Top
#154485 - 07/13/02 12:56 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


As to WDFW being in compliance or not with ESA? The simple answer is that technically they are as they have been granted by NMFS a grace period to submit their proposal under 4d. Until that grace period is officially and lawfully ended by NMFS or other legal action then their compliance with ESA is valid. Doesn't matter what they've done to date as long as that grace period is in place. And that my friends is the Law!

Top
#154486 - 07/13/02 01:01 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


posted 07-11-2002 08:24 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh where will the cute marine mammals go to for dinner if they shut down the Puget Sound hatcheries? You see there is a very huge population of harbor seals and sealions in Puget Sound whose numbers have swelled to match the amount of food available...namely salmonids. As it stands now the hatchery fish bear the vast brunt of there hunger. If there are no longer any hatchery fish to sustain this onslaught they will have to dine on something else? Can you guess what this might be. A seal population that is used to a dinner table set with likely a half million chinook counting blackmouth(my estimation) reduced to a wild only population of less than 50,000 on which to prey upon. In the short term those cuteys are gonna consume the same gross quantity of chinook...will the wild chinook habitat gains and survival gains offset this ecological fact enough to restore themselves? At least stay where they are currently? Or even survive this final foolishness? Yes I know we created the problem but thats a stupid argument if your overall concern is the restoration or even existence of those wild fish. Mother nature has its rules and predator prey relationships are part of it. A pretty well known thing amongst ecologists ....has anyone from Wash. Trout considered this or is it to inconvenient? Would really like to hear from the experts?

Top
#154487 - 07/13/02 01:03 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Those last 3 posts should give the armchair scientists and fishery managers something to chew on...please... I await your most thoughtful responses? laugh rolleyes

Top
#154488 - 07/13/02 01:40 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Shoot here's one more to consider!Oh yes the issue of science? Well I dearly love to see nonscientists and shoot even real scientists bandy around numbers for the masses to worship! One problem though is they very routinely avoid giving the 95% Confidence Intervals(CI) for those numbers which are typically averages. Now the Confidence Interval can tell alot about the strength or believabilty of a scientists conclusions. Let's see...didn't someone on this bulletin board claim cnr mortality to be only 3%? My question is what was the 95% CI for that number? Plus or minus 10% or what 90%? Now Washington Trout on its very own site lists a canadian study that found cnr to have a 10% mortality rate....but was it plus or minus 10 or 90%? Was it 50%? Hey if the CI for that canadian study was 50% then theoretically the mortality rate could really be 15%! People with agendas like to pick and choose that which bests meets their faith even if its science. Then those people tell us to accept their faith in their choice of science as the only truth.

Top
#154489 - 07/13/02 01:41 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ramon could you please provide answers to my posts? Something other than what is intended for the masses to hear? laugh

Top
#154490 - 07/13/02 02:38 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
ramon vb Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 07/10/02
Posts: 125
Loc: Duvall, WA
I really wanted to avoid getting involved in the back and forth here, but I feel compelled to address comments that are simply inaccurate.

Goose, I don't know how to put this delicately, but I'm afraid you're misinformed about that grace period. It ended in Jan 2001. NMFS has certainly decided not to take any enforcemnt action against WDFW (or the Tribes) while they all "negotiate" the HGMPs, but there is NO official or lawful "grace period" in effect. If there was, our notice would have no merit and you'd have nothing to be upset about. We can only seek relief for violations of the ESA. (Despite what you may think, we're not idiots, and we don't just make stuff up. This is the sort of thing we might have checked before we went to all this trouble.)

As to your other points; I'll leave it to others to debate you on conjectural points with made up numbers. But I will say that WT's whole approach to resource managemnt is all about recognizing and managing for the risk and uncertainty in the available data. However, we look at it a little differently than the approch you seem to advocate. We would take a look at the data points, and manage for the conservative end of the CI, in order to give the resourse the benefit of the doubt, not the stakeholder, particularly when the resource is in clear decline. No data does not mean no problem; the burden of proof should be on the fisher, not the fish. Making the salmon PROVE they are in trouble is what got us here.

Top
#154491 - 07/13/02 03:23 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Ramon I concede that legal point with no problem!
As to the other points you were right in not venturimg there...but you did a little...the predation one is one that I would dearly love to hear your resident ecologists try to discuss. Most environmental groups would avoid it like the plague...have your's the ball's?

Top
#154492 - 07/13/02 11:54 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
ramon vb Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 07/10/02
Posts: 125
Loc: Duvall, WA

Top
#154494 - 07/13/02 01:06 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


I wish to express my appreciation to Ramon also....Washington Trout has done many things to help in the battle for native fish protection and restoration....my only disagreement with them is on this sole issue that we have been discussing....and even with that I am not in any way disagreeing that hatcheries have been a problem and in many cases continue to be. My concern is that in the process we do no further harm even though the intent is for the good of the fish. Sorry but my training and experience causes me to analyze issues like this from every aspect and play the "devils advocate." rolleyes I still believe I brought forward several good points...especially the predation one and the displacement of fishing effort causing further grief for wild fish...that need to be seriously considered. Ramon and Washington Trout please continue your efforts as your intent is good...I just wanted to point out some of the possible ramifications.

Top
#154495 - 07/13/02 05:21 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
Wow; an interesting and intense discussion.

Clearly this issue shows the value of watchdog groups. Sometimes they are needed to nudge folks in the proper direction.

Ramon - Thanks for taking the time to post and present more detailed information.

How about the trout fishery in the Columbia Basin seep lakes as a sport fishery supported by a hatchery program?

However what caught my interest was your reference to Washington Trout's suit against NMFS regarding the Resource Management Plan (RMP) governing fisheries affecting Puget Sound chinook. WT's new release states: "Washington Trout does not oppose commerical salmon-harversting in all cases and does not intent to challenge tribal treaty-fishing rights." No where in the release is there any mention of recreation fishing; does WT have a position regarding the recreation fisheries?

Am I correct in that the major crux of the suit is that the RMP allows excessive harvest or impacts of ESA protected Puget Sound chinook? If so what would WT consider to be acceptable impacts? Can those impacts be brought down w/o aftecting the all ready limited recreational fishing? The harvest model run used for the 2002 salmon season (based on the NMFS approved RMP stock specific expliotation rates)in North of Falcon process showed that much of the non-treaty impacts occurred in the recreational fishery; mostly as incidental impacts in fisheries directed toward either hatchery chinook or other species.

WTs news release also states:" Harvest aimed at hatchery stocks impose unacceptable risks to threatened wild stocks mingled in with the hatchery fish." Does that mean WT is opposed to selective fisheries (retention of marked hatchery fish only) when ESA protected fish are present?

In WT's comments to NMFS regarding the RMP the Snohmish basin chinook was used as an example. The comments correctly state that the explioation rates (ER) for those fish has declined from nealry 80% in the late 1970s to 55% by mid-1990s to 35% in the late 1990s. The harvest model run for the 2002 season shows a projected ER of less than 20%. It is also correct in that there hasn't much a positive response in wild chinook escapements (limited upturn the last 3 or 4 years). Doesn't that strike you as odd? With substantial reduction in fishing I would expect to see some sort of postive response in escapment. What is even more interesting is that since the mid-1990s there has been a 4 fold increase in escapement of chinook to the Wallace hatchery on the Snohomish system; precisely the kind of response expected with reduced fishing. The Wallace and Snohomsih wild chinook should be experiencing the same marine survival conditions as well as the same fishing impacts; why didn't they respond similarly? The major difference is the wild fish are more dependent on freshwater/esturay conditions than the hatchery fish. It would appear that at current reduced ERs that fishing is not limiting the wild population but rather some freshwater productive factor. Similar difference in returns between hatchery and wild chinook have been noted elsewhere in Puget Sound.

In the introductive portion of WT's comments it state; "The local and state agencies in question have shown again and again an inability or unwillingness to enforce their own existing environmental regulations." Perhaps given the difference in hatchery and wild returns the focus should be in the habitat arena rather than harvest. The co-managers appear to have made a good faith and appropriate effort to reduce the over-fishing of the past (reducing harvest rates from 70-80% to less than 35% in the Snohomish example). Has any other the other Hs reduced their impacts by 50%? or at all?

Sorry, this is all ready too long - so enough.

Tight lines
Smalma

Top
#154496 - 07/13/02 08:33 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
superfly Offline
The Renegade White Man

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 2424
Loc: The Coast or the Keys !!!
Like I said before Dude, Put in the hours that I have in Fish enhancement and you will see that there needs to be some kind of help because of the amount of pressure put on the resource. I agree to saving the wild fish, but not at the expense of all sport fishing. Let me ask you this , How much money does W.T. put into enhancement/ I bet very little.
Yes the W.D.F.W is dragging there feet and suck at running the hatcheries, but with out them there is no fishing.
So In retrospect W.T. Can still BLOW Me !!
They are still out for themselves and there own agenda.
Also the W.S.C. needs to quit riding the fence and take a position on this. Like Goose said ," Do you have the Balls to "?????

Peace Superfly mad mad
_________________________
Facebook/Superfly Guides


360-888-7772

Stay Tuned for upcoming Hunts & Fishing info...........

New website & Channel Dropping soon !

Stay tuned for Turkey, Bear & Deer Hunts Along with Guided Sport Fishing.

Book Release Prior to Christmas 2021






Top
#154497 - 07/13/02 11:39 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
Superfly and what happens when the hatcheries fail????? I'll tell you what cause it happened on my home river(the Washougal) in the late 80's early 90's There is nothing to fish for and no wild fish left!! So as far as I am concerned hatchery fish provide nothing in the long term! And to use your words those that value the fishery over the fish can "blow me" seeing as how they won't be fishing.

Anyway you slice it saving wild fish = better fishing opportunity in the future. Hatcheries now = sporadic fishing in the future. take your pick.

Top
#154498 - 07/14/02 01:10 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Big Jim Offline
Returning Adult

Registered: 02/07/00
Posts: 424
Loc: Tacoma, Wa. USA
Go back and reread my first post. In that post I metioned the huge returns of fish to the Columbia. So here I will also say to look at the banner runs of silvers we had, the best runs of kings on the coast in years. Hatcheries did that. I do not like the WDFW at all, but they are between a rock and a hard place. Hunters and fishermen are yelling for more game. Animal rightest are yelling to stop all harvest. Special interest groups are suing over stupid issues, By this I mean other groups then WT. WT and others are saying to fix this, fix that. But what should the state do? They can't please everyone. Not a single group is pouring in the money to help out except sport license holders. When I said WT should work with the state, I mean get in there and help fix the problems, not just point them out over and over. I am sure the state would love for WT and others to come over and say, "hey we have ten thousand dollars, lets fix this damn hatchery up real good." Instead they stand around like county road crews and point to the problem, fix that, fix this, do it now. WT has worked with SPU, Vashon Island groups, and done some wonderful habitat projects. But I see nowhere in their web page any coworking with WDFW on hatcheries. Only lawsuits. I feel some of their efforts and resources should go into that. Quit wasting money on needless studies and suits. But continue to do some beneficial studies like impact and fish counts. I also feel that this pending suit will end before court. But I think it will be because WT is getting so much negative feed back on it. And the likelyhood that the Feds will not go against the state. The state IS putting more geneticially identical fish in the rivers, the Feds don't care where the fish are born, only that they be in the rivers.
_________________________
Just because I look big, dumb, and ugly, doesn't mean I am. It means I can stomp you for calling me it!

Top
#154499 - 07/14/02 01:20 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
glowball Offline
Spawner

Registered: 12/06/00
Posts: 786
Loc: bullcanyon
big jim,
I really like what you had to say. I got one question. when these groups sue where does the money go if they win? If they can sue why can't every sportsman in the state sue? I hate to see big wigs get fat off of someone else when they didn't deserve it. Look out bob i broke a nail typing on your website im suing.
just kidding
_________________________
There's no head like steelhead!
Operations manager of coors light testing facility.

Top
#154500 - 07/14/02 01:23 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
POS Clerk Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 08/03/01
Posts: 113
Loc: Oregon

Top
#154501 - 07/14/02 02:11 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Leadslinger Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 10/21/00
Posts: 114
Loc: Wa,USA
Thanks,Goose.Stick to your guns.Great questions and points.I do not expect to see them answered,though.

Thanks Smalma,I am sure I'm not the only one who enjoys your posts. I do not think your last post was too long.

I also appreciate Ramon's willingness to address the subject,even if in a limited fashion,here with us.

It really is very simple.No hatchery fish,no sport fishing.

Take a look at WT's last post and ask youself how many hatcheries will this effect?10,18,30,39 or many more?

I have not seen anything here that would lead me to believe that shutting down the hatcheries would be good for wild fish.

The hatcheries probably can be improved,but they did not cause the problem and will not fix it by going away.

Top
#154502 - 07/14/02 05:11 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
Globall no one gets any money from such lawsuites. it's not done for monetary reasons. What it does is for action to prevent the continued killing of ESA listed fish. no money changes hands except to lawyers. Hopefully it won't get to that point hopefully WDFW will get their heads out of their***** and develop the plan that was fue over 2 years ago.

This is not about closing hatcheries it is about getting a delinquent government agency that has been dragging it's feet and crapping on ESA INTENTIONALLY!!!!!!!! to develop a plan to minimize their impact on ESA listed chinook... A plan that they said they would come up with but has been ignoreing.

What do you guys not understand about the fact that this is 100% the fault of WDFW??? Their own lack of action brought this uon themselves!!!!!

Top
#154503 - 07/14/02 05:26 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Have all of you forgotten about all of the terrible salmon and steelhead fishing we had not so many years ago in the late 80's to early 90's. We have a few decent years now and you forget. When the fishing is bad people want to balme it on WDFW and poor management of hatchery and wild fish but when the fishing is good people sing a different song. And WDFW takes credit for good runs.

The Hoh out here is one of the only rivers that is almost all wild all accept hatchery steelhead. Will you guys give credit to hatcherys for the good fishing, is it because of good hatchery practices that the fish have rebounded in the Hoh, well most of the fish anyways.

If hatcherys stopped on all rivers in the sound and harvest was cut back by all parties do you think they would react any differently than the Hoh did. Maybe, Maybe not.

If every river around the state had comprible wild runs to the Hoh would we need hatcherys? Maybe not if we cut our harvest down and the tribes only netted twice a week tops. The Hoh has responded well to this maybe it is a good model to follow. It would save us a lot of money and in the future might make some.

Sure there wouldnt be much fishing oportunity for some years but I bet we would see the best fishing of our lifetimes when fish had a chance to recover. And I bet it wouldnt take as long as some think. All we have to do is give the wild fish a chance.

Top
#154504 - 07/14/02 11:07 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Leadslinger Offline
Juvenille at Sea

Registered: 10/21/00
Posts: 114
Loc: Wa,USA
Rich,I hope I live to see your vision of restored,abundant wild runs on all our rivers.

I have never fished the Hoh and don't know much about it.Imagine the Hoh under this scenario.It is dammed,suffers from major habitat problem resulting from pollution and is subject to overharvest because it is near a major metropolitan area.Twenty years ago a hatchery was built to make up for the decline of the wild stocks due to the reasons listed above.

Would it make any sense to remove the hatchery and expect the wild fish to rebound without having first addressed the original set of circumstances that were killing off the wild runs?

That is the situation many rivers face.Treating them all like the Hoh will not work.We need to address the "other problems" before we eliminate hatcheries.Reform,yes.Eliminate,no.

RA3,this is about hatcheries being eliminated if that is the end result.I am curious if WT had other legal options that would have effectively petitioned the Feds to force the State into compliance with the ESA,assuming that they are actually in violation,without trying to shut the hatcheries down.If so,then I think this is all about the hatcheries.

Top
#154505 - 07/15/02 09:06 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9160
Loc: everett
Superfly,
Put your swollen nuts on some ice....... WSC will take a stance after LOTS of info gathering and discussion of the scientific facts... there are facts to support a myraid of potential stances.... perhaps you would like to join WSC and do some volenteer time to help digest the available info and formulate a plan to help the fish and sportsfisher.
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

Top
#154506 - 07/15/02 11:41 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Beezer Offline
Spawner

Registered: 06/09/99
Posts: 855
Loc: Monroe WA
I'm with Leadslinger. I'm not buying WTs spin on this; it's all about closing hatcheries. All I see is WT trying to spank an under-budgeted WDFW into an arena that they have no resource, either staff or money, to make a valid attempt at compliance. WT makes it sound like WDFW is either too lazy or too apathetic concerning chinook to do what is right so the almighty WT is going courageously take it on themselves to kick their ass. Does WT expect someone in a WDFW management position to work on this compliance problem on his off-time? I doubt it considering WDFW's pay scale. Can you possibly imagine how frustrating it would be to work for WDFW? Low pay, the "Peter Principle" in full bloom and all the politics? It is a wonder they can get anything done and my hat's off to all of them. Sure there are problems, but lobbying for more money for WDFW would be a better approach. You get what you pay for.

I think a lot of the upstream migration problems cited by WT for chinook are encountered due to WDFW trying to capture brood stock. Some of these problems would be solved if ALL hatchery chinook were marked, however the co-managers will have none of that. I don't think even WT is arrogant enough to give the Tribes 60 days notice to come into compliance with ESA.

Smalma made a good point, WDFW hasn't been producing fall chinook for years on the Snohomish system yet I have seen no increase in fall chinook. I doubt if the Tokul Creek facility has a significant impact on the Snohomish system fall chinook.

If the diversion dam on Tokul needs fixing I suggest we all help WT have a car wash to raise funds to fix it. Hell, Issaquah is only down the road, maybe they can get their executive director to go for free Krispy Kreams, he certainly has a way with people.

Beezer

Top
#154507 - 07/15/02 01:14 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
4Salt Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/07/00
Posts: 3009
Loc: Lynnwood, WA
Quote:
Ramon,

I have no idea why you were concerned about continuing to post. I respect WT more now that you took the time to explain their/your position. Good job, and thanks.
AuntyM, perhaps this will provide an answer to your query:

Quote:
Washington Trout are a bunch of left wing liberal purist flyfishing mother****ers who don't give a **** about anyone else's views or thoughts. They are very selfish and were the type of kids that when growing up did not share there toys with any one else, and if they had to would run off to Mommy and Cry like a bunch of pussies that they are. They have to realize that they have to share the fish with everyone, so deal with it you Pansies !!!!!
Peace Superfly
Quote:
, so why don't you Wa. Trout Phukkers start putting in some enhancement time on the water instead of just lobbying your bought and paid for elected officials, What you afraid to get your hands dirty ? I thought so!!
Peace Superfly
Quote:
So In retrospect W.T. Can still BLOW Me !!
Whether W.T. is right or wrong on this issue, I'm sure that you can understand Ramon's reluctance to get involved in such intelligent, thought-provoking, problem-solving dialog as this. rolleyes rolleyes rolleyes
_________________________
A day late and a dollar short...

Top
#154509 - 07/15/02 02:59 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
4Salt Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/07/00
Posts: 3009
Loc: Lynnwood, WA
Aunty,

Obviously I was being a little facetious. My point was, If this discussion is to be truly enlightening and informative, how do terms like "Pussies, Mother f**kers, and blow me" have the same validity as the sane, rational, intelligent responses that were given?
_________________________
A day late and a dollar short...

Top
#154510 - 07/15/02 04:50 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Dave D Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 3640
Loc: Gold Bar
Ramon

You said "lawsuits are expensive, risky, and a lot of hard work"

Why not put the money towards fixing the hatchery at Tokul instead of wasting it on attorney fees.
_________________________
A.K.A
Lead Thrower

Top
#154512 - 07/15/02 06:09 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
4Salt Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/07/00
Posts: 3009
Loc: Lynnwood, WA
Aunty,

You should hear me cuss sometime. I've been known to launch into tirades that would make even Superfly blush! eek

I'm not attacking Superfly personally, just using his posts as an example. Yeah this issue stirs up some strong feelings, and I DO understand the emotions behind it, especially from someone who makes their living through sportfishing.

Let me put it to you this way: Mike Glichrist, Ramon Vanden Brulle, Todd Ripley, Gooose, Stlhdh2o, Quillback, Leadslinger, RichG etc... all presented valid points representing both sides of this issue. NONE of them resorted to name calling and personal attacks. We sportfishers are typically viewed as "Bubba" types (for lack of a better term) to the general public who don't fish, so in a PUBLIC forum such as this where a good cross-section of fishers are represented, why RE-INFORCE that notion?

As you are well aware, once these threads deteriorate into "slam-fests" NOTHING beneficial comes from it (except the "Jerry Springer" entertainment value laugh )

I realize that Superfly is your friend and that you are here to defend him. For that I give you credit, but imagine for a moment that you are Ramon VB and you are trying to clear up some of the mis-information about your organization's position, and someone starts with the name calling. Are you going to want to stick around and verbally spar with them? (then again, you and Stlhdh2o have had your moments :p laugh ) If these WERE Stlhdh2o's posts, would you also staunchly defend his right to express himself in this manner?

If we in the sportfishing community are to have ANY kind of credibility, we need to THINK before we spout off. That's all. smile
_________________________
A day late and a dollar short...

Top
#154514 - 07/15/02 07:29 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
4Salt Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/07/00
Posts: 3009
Loc: Lynnwood, WA
Fair enough. smile
_________________________
A day late and a dollar short...

Top
#154515 - 07/15/02 07:38 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9160
Loc: everett
WHEW!!!
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

Top
#154517 - 07/15/02 10:39 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Sheesh I go fishing for a couple of days and look at what happens! eek eek rolleyes
Crap I got tomorrow off...might as well load up the truck again and go off in pursuit of more hatchery summer steelies laugh . Those N.F Lewis ones don't fight at all :p ...very inferior fish wink ! Oh and they appear to be little tiny runts wink ! Well time to head to the next very poor run of worthless fish laugh . Oh and Joe remember what I told you a "Honyach" was? Peace Bro!

Top
#154518 - 07/16/02 04:24 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
superfly Offline
The Renegade White Man

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 2424
Loc: The Coast or the Keys !!!
To everyone who was offended by My langauge I am sorry.
But being a true native of washington state I have seen our fisheries rollercoater over the years and have come to the understanding of what has hurt it the most is Commercial over harvest, poor logging practices, urban sprawl, farm chemicals and last but not least tribal gillnetting. All this aside The state has changed the rules of the road for the timber industry. I use to be a part owner in a logging company and from the time I started to the time I sold my half there were drastic changes for the better of all wildlife, and those who did not like it or comply are no longer in business.
When I left the timber industry to get into the sportfishing industry things were at rock bottom, it was 1997 and we were all feeling the affects of all the above listed problems , but there was light at the end of the tunnel. Now here we are 5 years later and it has gotten dramatically better.
Yes you are right that there is serious problems at some of the hatcheries, so lets take some of that money that you want to spend on lawsuits and spend it on fixing the problem instead of paying attorneys fees.
All I am saying is don't buy into W.T.'s so called wonderful fix it plan because it is very one sided and would take many years and no fishing at all to make a difference. There are ways to use the wild fish for reproduction and stock on there home rivers, these broodstocking programs are working wonderfully in most places were they are, that I believe is the path we should all be looking towards because it is a pretty good compromise.
I belong to several enhancement groups and put my time in out there getting wet cold and dirty. Some of you should try it, it is very rewarding.
I would join the W.S.C. , But what is there agenda exactly? do you guys have a mission statement, if so please e-mail me a copy. I have also sent my Wa. Rep from Vision to W.S.C. Meetings to pass out barbless hooks, Has he made it there? have any members got the hooks? if not please e-mail me and let me know, then I can chastize him if he hasn't.
And Jerry Garcia, I love you man, I just want to know were you guys stand in all of this.
And Ramon, I know you mean well, but lawsuits are not the answer.
Peace Superfly laugh laugh
_________________________
Facebook/Superfly Guides


360-888-7772

Stay Tuned for upcoming Hunts & Fishing info...........

New website & Channel Dropping soon !

Stay tuned for Turkey, Bear & Deer Hunts Along with Guided Sport Fishing.

Book Release Prior to Christmas 2021






Top
#154519 - 07/16/02 08:53 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9160
Loc: everett
OK Superfly, who wrote that for you? Check out WSC at the banner next to Teds at the top of the page. Because we are a volunteer group and we all like to fish we try to choose one policy at a time to work on. I think we did a decent job on wild release statewide[ this will reappear for the next major rule change cycle]. We are not a secret society, come to a meeting, get involved, you don't have to be a member to come to the meetings. As I said before we are in the process of developing our next step in protecting and promoting wild steelhead. This is a group thing, if you want to be a part of this get on board. Hooks, what hooks?
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

Top
#154520 - 07/16/02 11:25 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
superfly

1. some rivers don't have enough wild fish left to start a broodstock and in the case of the Washougal (my home river) the wild fish are all infected with IHN that they caught from the hatchery fish there.

2. wild broodstocks although good for fishing have not been proven at being successful at anything else.

3. wild stocks ALWAYS rebound when hatchery fish are eliminated!

If we want restored and reliable runs of fish there is ONLY!!!!!!!! one way to accomplish that and that is to have healthy unharvested runs of wild fish. PERIOD!!!!! That is the only method that has ever been proven successful.

The Kalama research team is now conducting an experiment with the survival rates of a wild brood stocks. If they find that thoes wild broodstocks can spawn and produce adult offspring that are indistinguishable from the wild fish then and only then will a hatchery ever have been successful.
I am not willing to allow the wild fish to go extinct just so a few meathunters can have hatchery fish to fish for.
hatchery fish are a MAJOR limiting factor to wild fish if not the main limiting factor not a minor deal. I think you are hugely underestimating the negative impact they have..

Top
#154521 - 07/16/02 12:47 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
superfly Offline
The Renegade White Man

Registered: 02/16/00
Posts: 2424
Loc: The Coast or the Keys !!!
Jerry, Thanks for the heads up on my guy not showing at your meetings, Now I just have to ask him what he did with all those barbless hooks.
RA3, you and your group are stereotyping anglers by whether they bonk fish or not.The largest user of hatchery fish is the Commercials and then the pet food companies. Far more of these fish are caught by them or surplused then we all could catch.
I probably release more fish in a year than you would ever think of catching. Myself I am all for Statewide release of all native fish.
I maybe keep 40 to 60 fish a year for myself , the nieghbors and family and friends, between hatchery steelhead and springers and sprinkle in a few chrome brite ocean silvers, that is it.
By the way one other rule change that we would need to put in place is to keep the flyfisherman from fishing on spawning fish, I have seen so called "prominent Fly guides" fishing there people on spawning steelhead on several peninsula rivers in late march and april.
Peace Superfly laugh laugh
_________________________
Facebook/Superfly Guides


360-888-7772

Stay Tuned for upcoming Hunts & Fishing info...........

New website & Channel Dropping soon !

Stay tuned for Turkey, Bear & Deer Hunts Along with Guided Sport Fishing.

Book Release Prior to Christmas 2021






Top
#154522 - 07/16/02 01:03 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9160
Loc: everett
Superfly, your stereotyping flyfishers------- spooners and jiggers and eggers and shrimpers and spinners and flossers and snaggers have all been known to fish over spawning fish------ what about bait and downsteamers?
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

Top
#154523 - 07/16/02 01:53 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
4Salt Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 03/07/00
Posts: 3009
Loc: Lynnwood, WA
See 'Fly, that wasn't so hard was it! That was an intelligent, well though-out post that lends so much more credibility to your viewpoint. IMHO. smile

p.s. I wasn't offended by the language, F**k no! laugh laugh
_________________________
A day late and a dollar short...

Top
#154524 - 07/16/02 02:18 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Small question Jerry since we are on the subject of stereotyping? Is calling those people who support keeping hatcheries "meat hunters" not stereotyping? If your gonna play the game please apply the rules equally. laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh laugh

Top
#154525 - 07/16/02 02:44 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9160
Loc: everett
Meathunters was one word Goose and yes RA3 was also stereotyping!
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

Top
#154526 - 07/16/02 05:34 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Todd Offline
Dick Nipples

Registered: 03/08/99
Posts: 28170
Loc: Seattle, Washington USA
Joe,

Justin did stop by the last meeting, but only stayed for a minute because he was on his way to a B.A.S.S. meeting to try and sell some Vision bass hooks. He asked me about the next meeting, which isn't until next month, as we don't have a July meeting.

Go to http://www.wildsteelheadcoalition.com to see the mission statement, etc., for the Wild Steelhead Coalition. If you can't make it up for a meeting, maybe Justin can give you the full report. Make sure he brings lots of hooks and swivels!! laugh eek laugh

Fish on...

Todd.
_________________________


Team Flying Super Ditch Pickle


Top
#154527 - 07/16/02 10:15 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Robert Allen3 Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/23/00
Posts: 762
Loc: vancouver WA USA
Jerry Who exactly was I stereotyping? I was stereotyping anglers who fish for hatchery chinook in Puget Sound.. I would also say it was not a negative stereotype simply that the motivation of chinook fishermen in my experience is much different than say steelhead fishermen. In fact based on my observations of chinook fishermen in general (fall chinook anyway) i'd say that at least 50% never fish except when there are a lot of fish around that they can kill. That makes them meathunters. There is nothing wrong with that. However I do not want to sacrifice our wild fish so that people can harvest hatchery fish. That is exactly what we are doing!!

Top
#154528 - 07/16/02 10:24 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Smalma Offline
River Nutrients

Registered: 11/25/01
Posts: 2844
Loc: Marysville
Robert Allen -
I'm sure that we both agree that: 1)recovery of wild fish is dependent on placing their needs first and 2) there is much that needs to be addressed in the hatchey arena and the interaction of hatchery fish with wild fish.

However I have to disagree that eliminating hatchery programs is the sure way to recovery. There at less two examples in Puget Sound where hatchery steelhead programs have been eliminated and a decade ort more later the wild fish numbers are no better; The Nisqually and Cedar. The first step towards successful recovery of wild stocks is having healthy rivers. Without productive habitats no fish have a chance. Destroyed habitat is not easily restored with recovery times measured in life-times or more.

There has been much bantering about lately regarding the best science. However the refutable science is that salmonids need water!!

Tight lines
Smalma

Top
#154529 - 07/16/02 11:52 PM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Thanks for the spelling correction Jerry! wink Uhh RA3 I fish for chinook when I'm fishing for chinook, I also fish for steelhead when I fish for steelhead, I also fish for coho when I fish for coho, I also fish for pinks when I fish for pinks, I also fish for chum when I fish for chum, I also...dang that could go on forever! Well one more...I also fish for all of the above at the same time whenever they are present and it is legal to do so. What does that make me...hey I'm thick skinned...call it like you see it? Please let it happen Jerry this once?
After that I really do promise to be a good little bird! laugh laugh laugh wink Hey I'm serious eek !

Top
#154530 - 07/17/02 08:55 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Jerry Garcia Offline



Registered: 10/13/00
Posts: 9160
Loc: everett
I never said stereotyping was bad only pointing out everybody[damn, that was stereotyping] does it. IMHO, stereotyping [ or the use of absolutes like always, never,everybody, etc.] dilutes the facts and alienates those that don't fit the norm. I fish for the white kings on the Veder 3 or 4 times in the fall, rarely if ever bring home a fish----- yet I'm still a meathunter?
_________________________
would the boy you were be proud of the man you are

Growing old ain't for wimps
Lonnie Gane

Top
#154531 - 07/22/02 09:53 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Plunker Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/01/00
Posts: 624
Loc: Skagit Valley
_________________________
Why are "wild fish" made of meat?

Top
#154532 - 07/23/02 12:41 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Plunker Offline
Spawner

Registered: 04/01/00
Posts: 624
Loc: Skagit Valley
For more information about the hatchery reform efforts check the following link:

HATCHERY REFORM IN PUGET SOUND & COASTAL WASHINGTON

Sometimes the wheels of change turn slower than we would like but considering the management mistakes made in the past it seems prudent to do things right this time around.

Does anyone have any positive suggestions what we as a user group can do to facilitate the reform process?
_________________________
Why are "wild fish" made of meat?

Top
#154533 - 07/23/02 12:56 AM Re: Washington Trout declares war on recreational fishing
Anonymous
Unregistered


Volunteer to help! Thanks Plunker! laugh

Top
Page 1 of 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 >

Moderator:  The Moderator 
Search

Site Links
Home
Our Washington Fishing
Our Alaska Fishing
Reports
Rates
Contact Us
About Us
Recipes
Photos / Videos
Visit us on Facebook
Today's Birthdays
CHUBS
Recent Gallery Pix
hatchery steelhead
Hatchery Releases into the Pacific and Harvest
Who's Online
0 registered (), 939 Guests and 1 Spider online.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
John Boob, Lawrence, I'm Still RichG, feyt, Freezeout
11498 Registered Users
Top Posters
Todd 28170
Dan S. 17149
Sol Duc 16138
The Moderator 14486
Salmo g. 13521
eyeFISH 12766
STRIKE ZONE 12107
Dogfish 10979
ParaLeaks 10513
Jerry Garcia 9160
Forum Stats
11498 Members
16 Forums
63773 Topics
645302 Posts

Max Online: 3001 @ 01/28/20 02:48 PM

Join the PP forums.

It's quick, easy, and always free!

Working for the fish and our future fishing opportunities:

The Wild Steelhead Coalition

The Photo & Video Gallery. Nearly 1200 images from our fishing trips! Tips, techniques, live weight calculator & more in the Fishing Resource Center. The time is now to get prime dates for 2018 Olympic Peninsula Winter Steelhead , don't miss out!.

| HOME | ALASKA FISHING | WASHINGTON FISHING | RIVER REPORTS | FORUMS | FISHING RESOURCE CENTER | CHARTER RATES | CONTACT US | WHAT ABOUT BOB? | PHOTO & VIDEO GALLERY | LEARN ABOUT THE FISH | RECIPES | SITE HELP & FAQ |