Lots of fish!!!
Fished north of the Harrison in our "HONEY HOLE." :p
Lost count of how many fish we caught, but let's say my freezer is FULL!!! I kept 15 including a 30 lb King. Not bad for 3 days of fishing.
It's open friday until midnite, Shane and I will be there tomarrow at 4:30 am to SLAM AWAY!
Sorry I missed you FJ and Craven, but Shane had Bull riding at the rodeo sat.

Hey, anyone got any Ben-Gay? My arms HURT!

G-man:

How do you keep 15 fish for "yourself" in 3 days with a two sock a day limit?

I just got back from being up there for 4 days and yes my arms are very sore to!

BD

BobberDown, Don't go alone.
You get 2 sockeye a day plus 1 king.

Oh, I forgot, Fisheries is leaving it open for 1 more week, but I won't be fishing for awhile. My arm is not working so good now.

Thanks for the heads up there Gman. I'll be watching for a Washington State registered jet catching over their limit. If you keep bragging about how many fish you're stacking in the freezer you may find that the welcome mat is not exactly going to be out for you next time you come up.

If you're gonna floss why not stick closer to home?

flossing = snagging and is bad horrible and rotten even if it is legal it has absolutely no redeming value. True sportsmen do not do it PERIOD! It doesn't matter is a certain species or run won't bite. If they won't bite then do not fish for them!!!!!!!

I like to call it hero fishing. The most unskilled fishermen can be a "hero" for a day during the sockeye fishery. Unfortunately there is basically nothing sporting about it. There is a lot of talk up here about having maximum leader lengths imposed, and hopefully this will get a lot of the meat hogs off the river.

You know, if you purists don't like flossing, then don't do it. Why do you insist on demeaning other people that are just having an enjoyable fishing experience?

RA3, Your range of what is acceptable in fishing is alot tighter than what is lawful. If it bothers you that much work to get the laws changed, even in Canada. I don't floss fish but certainly won't demean others for doing what is lawful. PETA has taken the high "moral" ground that fishing is harmful and true sportsmen wouldn't fish, only take pictures. To PETA you are bad horrible and rotten with no moral standing. So what guidelines do we live by?

Rob's way = ONLY way...

Didn't y'all know that??

Hey my first post on the fishing section of this board!!

HEY !! Where's that horse?

Possesion is two limits: 4 sockeye and two Springs. Are you telling me G-man that you brought your family of 4? Or were you klunking over your limit.

I'm not a purist by any means. It just amazes me all the guys on here that want to play "johnny law" when they see someone flossing because it's "immoral" and illegal. But as soon as it's legal to do they're all over it.
Guess I don't let politicians decide my morals for me.

Welcome to TheRouge.

The "flossfest" on the Fraser is nothing more than a meat fishery and is not for the angler looking for a true sport fishing trip. So purhaps "angling purists" should just stay away.

The fishery is nothing more than "single-line gillnetting" as described by an older Canadian gent who fished next to me yesterday.

The fishery provides an opportunity for me to fish in a beautiful scenic area for great tasting fish while supporting the local Fraser economy from restaurants to motels and toss in the $80 Canadian License to boot.

I found that the bad behaviours along the bars that had been developing over the last few seasons vastly improved. Witnessed many anglers packing their trash out as well as old balls of mono and trash left by others. I try to make a habit of this trash collecting everytime I'm up there because it's just to beautiful of a resource to see get trashed.

I came back with one spring shy of my possesion limit of 4 socks and two springs for two days of fishing.

G-man: Openly bragging about going over your limit will not help you make very many friends on this board.

BD

Is there some confusion about the fact that G-MAN took his family with him? I guess that means they were within their possession limits. Do you guys even read the posts, or is it just strictly "shoot from the hip" time?

Dan,

I consider myself a pretty intelligent guy, but I may be a little obtuse here as well. Could you please direct me to the verbage where G-Man states that he brought 4 members of his family, and they each retained their posession limit? My limited comprehension skills led me to interpret this:
And this:
to be somewhat ambiguous at best.

Left to open interpretation, it would appear that G-Man kept more than his limit during his trip.

I consider you a very intelligent individual. You must be even more so than I gave you credit, for your ability to discern the actual truth from the limited amount of information that G-Man provided.

Dan S:

Notice G-man's reference as "I kept 15", a statement like that only creates speculation. If I'm wrong I'm sorry for sicking the hounds on him.

BD

Hey G-man, how are you feeling? Back out fishing yet?

Pay careful attention to THIS part:

Being that I don't generally accuse people of being poachers without solid evidence, I took that to mean enough members of his family went along to make that a legal limit.

I suppose I could be wrong, but I prefer not to accuse someone of doing something illegal unless I know they did.

If the rest of you want to assume the worst about somebody, then be my guest..............

Aunty M...
What is a board clique???

Of course I knew that's how you'd interpret it Aunty, could I expect anything less? :p

Speaking of interpretations, I'll remove any ambiguity, and spell it out:

Personally, if G-Man wants to keep more than his limit OR NOT, that would be between him and the DFO.

I responded to Dan only because I could see where the others could get the wrong idea about G-Man's post. I didn't understand why Dan responded in the manner that he did. Now I do. No accusations towards G-Man on my part. Just trying to have a little fun with DanS. (Man it sure seems to get me in trouble, especially with Aunty. )

Speaking of ambiguity, this: must not mean what I thought it did.

p.s. Did the term "Board clique" hit a nerve with you Aunty?

Board Clique?

Did any of you Piscatorially Correct in your face idiots notice that G-MAN lives less than fifty miles from where he was fishing?

Possession limit? Duuhhh...

Why spend an hour on the road when it could be so much more fun to sleep in your car for a few days?

Edit - PS: No! No! No! Please don't repromand me for being obtuse.

I only said something for one reason.

The BB's seem to be a place where everyone hangs out like a bunch of vultures and waits for someone to say or show something and then pounce on them if there is ANY chance something less-than-savory is going on.

Remember the "Snagged fish on the cover" thread, and the "Tony D. Suspended from STS" thread?

Why do we always assume that someone is doing something wrong?

What I find objectionable is that when such fisheries are allowed flossing becomes an accepted method which it should not be. As I stated no true sportsman would do it PERIOD thats it. What makes it worse is that people learn how to do it then think it's ok anytime that the fish won't bite and flossing spreads hell i ain't gonna callit flossing anymore it's snagging. next thing you know you have peole saying it's ok to fish for steelhead on a redd because they won't bite any other way. Frankly i don't care if I am called a pureist. I don't care if people are offended by someone pointing out that what they are doing is wrong.
There used to be a legal snag fishery on the Washougal for fall chinook. People came from all over the world to participate in it. Even though it was only open to seniors and people with disabilities. pretty soon there were people all over the river snagging only they didn't stop with fall chinook, they also snagged coho, and wild steelhead. These people were the absolute scum of the earth. There was more litter generated from that fishery than from the MX Nationals which brings in 20.000 people.

These types of fisheries are always horrible and should not be allowed anywhere on the planet for any reason PERIOD! OK call me a closed minded ******* but quite frankly i'd rather be right than popular...

courtesy of PLUNKER.

Definition of obtuse..(the second time I've seen that word used most recently) "not sharp or quick of wit"
Your description of yourself Plunk??
.

Are we done yet?????

What do you think about being neither?

Dan, you must be a framer because you hit that nail squarely on the head.

Dan, that's the funniest thing I've read in awhile.

Both

Spot on.

When G first started this thread I was wondering how long it would take for the sparks to fly.

I to felt that G's wording may have left him standing knee deep in the [Bleeeeep!]...at least as far as perspective. Since we did not see G last weekend I assumed that in his excitement perhaps it was more a matter of verbiage.

Explain yourself G and put this one to bed!

RA3...I believe the politically correct term in Rome is "bouncing"!

42,000 visible "bouncers" on the Fraser of which 99% are honest hard working folks like you or I and we are all going to hell for flossing?

What about 42,000 rabid pro sports fans packed into a stadium? Are they also going to the same hell for supporting all that is unethical about pro sports in America's?

Only a hypocrite would have two seperate answers.

FJ...out.

"What do you think about being neither?" LMAO! (my belly hurts)

Are you flossing us Dan? - That line has teeth and is an easy drift to catch.

Posh II - "not sharp or quick of wit"

I like it. Good definition. Learning can be fun.

Here's a couple more:
"Lacking quickness of perception or intellect."
"Not having acute sensibility or perceptions"

Obtuse - (synonyms)
Dull-witted, dense, stupid, undiscerning, insensitive, ignorant, dumb, dense, imperceptive, insensible, doltish, feeble-witted, hasty, headlong, uncontrolled, rash, unreasonable, irrational, blind, benighted, pedestrian, backward, prosaic, slow, inarticulate, blind impercipient, shallow, unrefined, incognizant, insipid, boring, tedious, vapid, tiresome, pointless, humdrum and blunt.

Another more applicable definition for obtuse:
"Characterized by a lack of intelligence or sensitivity: an obtuse remark."

Question? Is there a difference between:
a) drifting a beaded hook on a twelve-foot leader perpendicular to and with the current (and)
b) drifting a sparsely dressed fly on a twelve-foot leader perpendicular to and with the current?

Is either ethical?
Is one or the other or both snagging?

Oh! Oh! Gotta run! Here come the thought police. Better close my mind.

Bye Now!

I was hoping not to get too caught up in this.

The Canadians can set their own rules......they're their fish to manage. That doesn't mean I have to agree with all their seasons, or bag limits, but it does mean that the participants SHOULD NOT be lumped together with the flossers down here who are doing something ILLEGAL. There IS a difference.

If you want to bring morality into it, go right ahead, but that is for an individual and/or society to determine whether or not an act is moral. We all have our lines we draw in terms of what's morally acceptable to us. I probably wouldn't call a Gamie on a dude if I saw him, say snagging silvers on the Quilcene. If I saw a guy poaching a native steelhead or a King on the Satsop this year, I would call a Gamie. There's my line.

Rob, your morals aren't the same as everyone else's and you'd be more apt to change people's compasses around by stating your point of view "flossers aren't much of a sportsman" without spazzing out about it. Of course you're welcome to butt heads if you choose, but that won't help the fish much.......

OK, is now when I say "PERIOD" ?

Well, I guess I kinda biased here as I spend my summers in a place where countless thousands of people harvest hundreds of thousands sockeye. 99% of which are harvested one of three ways: one, by flossing, two, by personal use dipnetting, and three, by personal use gillnetting at the mouth of the river.

Guess which way I prefer to fish them(although I don't claim residency anyhow to have the option to net)????

The way I look at things: if the fish don't bite period, floss 'em. Sure it's glorified snagging, but it still takes the knack to do it correctly so that you're hooking them in the mouth. If it's a fish that normally bites, then I say "no" to flossing. That's part of "fishing"

Weird way of looking at it? Perhaps, but knowing that perhaps 1 out a few thousand sockeye bite (there's been 225,000 + return to the Kasilof this year and we've caught FOUR with traditional methods) ... I can live with it.

Besides, who can resist it when this is what the fishery is all about??

Sockeye Lining Movie - 5.46 meg download

Sockeye Lining Movie - lower quality movie - 3.34 meg download

I think Fishgal's giggle says it all

Play nice eveyone

I wonder why bare red hooks behind a dodger, which sockeye definately bite in Lake Washington, don't seem to work in other freshwater situations. I assume it's been tried...

So G-Man, how big is your family? I find it hard to believe you haven't seen this post yet...

Slab Q
Thats a great question. On the Oly Pen they will take a sand shrimp. My friend who fishes L WA says he's tried but they won't take a shrimp there for him. He says they won't take a red hook on the Pen either. I have tried both on the Kenai without success, I have to wonder what the heck is up with these fish? Part of their Union Contract?

Sockeye do bite in freshwater. The first time I intentionally targeted sockeye was before there was rentention by sporties allowed on the Fraser. Having never heard of flossing at this point I used a three foot leader and caught one fish after another. I continue to use a three or four foot leader and continue to catch fish consistently. I've caught sockeye on both fly (using a short tippet) and using marabou jigs on other systems. Of course my buddies say that the only reason I fish with short leaders is that I'm too cheap to tie longer ones.

I have fished up in Alaska and I can tell you Flossing is hard. I must suck at it because it is not as easy as every one makes it out. (at least not for me) I guess I need more practice,next time I head North.

Sorry guys and gals about taking a couple of days off the computer but I've been really "DOPED" up these last few days because someone left a net submerged FULL OF DEAD FISH in the river.

It's really amusing reading all the Flame Posts because they are from people who don't even know me
I kinda of enjoyed them. I like it when people "ASS-U-ME" We know what assume means don't we? Why do some of you assume I was alone? Why not assume it was a typo like some of the others that know me did?

I'm self employed and alot of my friends are also. So I always have people to go with. Me and FJ are Un-Employable. Shane, my 10 year old son, is "ALWAYS" with me when the boat leaves.
I'm alittle upset with him right now because he out fished me the last 2 days Little boogger!

I figure the DOF in Canada does the same as our WDFW here in washington does to poachers "TAKE THEIR BOATS!!!"

Do you all think I would trade my Jet Boat and a F250 powerstroke 4x4 for some sockeye?

The daily limit is 2 sockeye and 1 king per person.

Friday morn, after "we" were DONE fishing, and after the accident I left my boat, truck and trailer at the Jesperson boat launch.(With some Canadians, I didn't even know). Was I worried? Nope, Because we only had only 4 sockeye. 2 for me and 2 for Shane.

Thank you FJ, I should ALWAYS "proof read" before I post, my mistake.

Friday, Monday, Tuesday and Thursday. OOPS! Ok, I can't "count" days, nor can I "drive" over submerged nets. It must be a "Country Thing"

"MY BOAT" Sorry, "I", it's a "Male Possession" thing.

I've never been "Flamed" before, It was kinda cool! Thanks A

Man Dan, that was sweet

Cool G-Man! Lot of stone casting in this thread...any apologies forthcoming? I should hope so!

Gooose, come on. You don't think a Purist would say sorry for anything do you?
I'm not holding my breath. _____ AuntyM, could you please insert a smiley holding his breath here?
Thanks, GEE

No apology from me cause i did nothing wrong... I guess purist just means ethical now.
I am getting tired of all this reletivism. Some things are just unethical such things never have a time and place where they are ethical. Snagging is one of thoes things. It is always wrong even where it is legal. Frankly i think it's stupid to lower our expectations of sportsmen to the lowest common denominator. There is no difference between ripping chinooks in the back with a trebel wrapped with lead than drifting a lure into a pool so full of fish you can't help but snag one. No difference at all.. There is no difference between flossing sockeyes than there is snagging a wild steelhead off a redd. Also no difference in the "fly anglers" who often floss coho on the Kalama. legal or not enforced or not it is wrong to fish knowing that the fish are not volentarily eating your lure or bait. That is snagging and snagging is always wrong Period that is the way it is. make all the exuses you want but you cannot change the truth..

If your up on the frasier snagging sockeye then do not dare say a word when you see some yahoo snagging a wild steelhead off a redd in thr sol duc the stilly the Skagit or any other river.. There is no difference!

I just read this thread for the first time. I met G Man at the Columbia Flotilla this spring gunnel to gunnel.(Team Sneakin' Out) My crew will agree that he seemed like a genuinely nice guy and really hoped that he would do well. He seemed to be the type to really earn and deserve his rewards (he travelled a ways too). As I read this thread I kept thinking to myself that there must be a mistake or maybe he made a mistake (I had even forgiven him). Why wasn't he responding? Alas, an explanation. Whew. I am going out of my way to shake his hand the next time. I am also going to tell my crew of the further adventures of G Man.

Yep, Rob, and shoplifting is capital murder too, right?

I figured as much from you, though. I won't waste my time responding to your drivel any more.

Poor RA3, The world is full of people who believe the way they think is the way it is for everybody when in reality[mine of course] the way they think is how it is for them and only them. We have laws and rules for a reason, if it makes you angry that your superior ways are not supported by law, you might have some people [ WTO ] who a couple of years ago invaded Seattle and created quite a scene ,they thought their thoughts should be the law.

RA3,
Have you thought of registering your views as a religion? I think there may be tax benefits available for your commune of zealots.

As they say..."Go sell crazy somewhere else, we are all full here"

RA3:

"If your up on the frasier snagging sockeye then do not dare say a word when you see some yahoo snagging a wild steelhead off a redd in thr sol duc the stilly the Skagit or any other river.. There is no difference!" ......

Give me a f$#(*$)NG break here! Well the first difference is 8 - 12 million fish vs. a few hundred, these fish are not sitting on redds, and are chrome bright and not cherry colored boots!

RA3, Like I said before I'm glad I will not have to see you or any other angling "ethical purists" up in B.C. flossing away

G-Man:
Sorry that I misjudged your catch limit for your party. It's always nice running into a fellow yank up there in B.C.

BD

Jerry Garcia: In Washington my views are supported by law. Flossing is illegal here (just not enforced)

all: so if there was several million steelhead in the sol duc you'd be in favor of snagging them???
Thats bull s... in my opinion

copied and pasted from anglingbc.com

Wednesday, August 14, 2002 - 07:50 pm
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
closure to sockeye retention in the Fraser River

Hello All,

We have rec'd word that the closure to sockeye retention in the Tidal and
Non-tidal waters of the Fraser River is expected to go into effect on Sunday
Aug 18 at 2359 hrs.

The remainder of the South Coast is expected to close Friday Aug 16 at 2359
hrs. A further update will be provided on Friday afternoon (after 1500 hrs)
after the Fraser River Panel meeting. A fishery notice is being posted
today.

Note: We have been experiencing problems with our network today so it may
take awhile before it is updated.

And, it's legal up there. If you don't like it don't go up there and do it.

If there were several million steelhead in ANY river we likely wouldn't be having this discussion!!!

NO DRUGS TODAY!!!! Feeling better.

Robert Allen- I would agree. Snagging. Where it's illegal, should not be tolerated.

But...some species of fish can only be "Harvested" by Snagging/Flossing. However you what to call it.

Paddle Fish, Are harvested by using a 8/0 treble hook "above" a 2 oz weight. Alot of bottom bounching and rod jerking involved. Why does the Game Dept allow it and tell people how to do it? #1 Because they don't bite and if some of the paddle fish were not removed from the system they would take it over entirely, period!

Gators are harvested in Florida the same way, by Gov't supported wildlife control agents!.

Sockeye, Don't bite and some of them have to be removed because the eco-system could not support that many fish at the spawning areas.
So what should the Gov't do? Stop sport fishing on sockeye and only allow the Natives to net them? This would prove to lose the Fisheries alot of $$. Not to mention the tackle shops, hotels, resturants, Guides(who need the extra income to get them through the slim times) Not to forget fish/habitat programs which are supported by sportfishermen, not commerical netters!

I worked for a processing plant and know where all the excess fish go "Dog Food" or Mink Food! What a waste. Right?

RA3, would you agree best practical way to use the extra sockeye would be in feeding families?
Whether you feel this type of fishing is "Below You" It's alot harder than just throwing out a hook and "Yarding" in a fish.
Two of us fished 6 hrs one day with only 2 in the boat! Meatfeast? Not from what I've seen.
I've met alot of guys at the launch without any
fish for that day!

All of our fish, except "2" were hooked on the "inside" of the mouth! I'm still not convinced all sockeye don't bite.

15 yrs ago I believed as you do. But as I get older I see the bigger, whole picture and not just me, mine, myself, I. Fishing is for "All" not just for me!
Just my 2 cents, for what it's worth.
I hope when we all meet, we all meet as fellow fishermen, friends with a common goal "Save Our Sport"

Tilla, Thank You

RA3,

Why is it more ethical to fool a fish into injesting your hook then proceeding to drag it to shore while it struggles violently only to let it go so some other sadist can do the same thing.

Believe it or not most non-fisherman believe that C&R is morally corrupt..."why would you drag a fish to shore only to let it go."

You have a perverted code of ethics, one that wouldn't hold water in any philisophical debate.

For argument sake,if we are hooking fish in the mouth, or anywhere for that matter, for our own pleasure, why is it necessary that they bite. Isn't the end result the same?

I guess there is only one way for a Canuck to answer this pile of crap. If you dont like the fishing STAY HOME You wont be missed.

BEEK-COOT!
I guess I'll be on the river again Sat morn.
Only as a guide...guide the boat around submerged nets!!
Remember what my boat looks like?
We'll be above the 1st bar above the Harrison and to the right down the channel.
Stop in and say hello, unless 5:30 is too early?

GEE

BOB ALL 3

The hook hurts just as much on the outside as it does on the inside. The great fisherman of the Frasier have the oportunity to legaly make that fish sting, inside or out. The difference is, is that they BONK em when they bring them in, not let em go with a " I love you fishy fish, if you were a tree I would hug you"

Glad you got such wide shoulders BOB...You deserve even more.

BOB ALL 3

The hook hurts just as much on the outside as it does on the inside. The great fisherman of the Frasier have the oportunity to legaly make that fish sting, inside or out. The difference is, is that they BONK em when they bring them in, not let em go with a " I love you fishy fish, if you were a tree I would hug you"

Glad you got such wide shoulders BOB...You deserve even more.

" If my father had had his way anyone who did not know how to catch a fish would be allowed to disgrace a fish by catching it."
Norman McLane

Snaggers= scumbags PERIOD!

Geez do we have to listen to "Mein Kampf" from RA3 forever?

RA 3

Should not it read "would NOT be allowed to disgrace a fish by catching it" ?

RA3
I do believe we know how you feel ----BUT to be demeaning and almost hateful to those that don't believe as you do removes most of the respect I may have had for your passion about the fish.

Team Keebler gorked the hell out of the reds on the Kenai for a week straight, and ALL of our fish bit the Sockeye Joe rig. (double secret probation rig). If you believe that all of them were "inside" the mouth biters, then you probably don't believe that Reiter Rat listens to "Zanphyr, the Master of the Pan Flute", on his 8 track on the way to work.

We wuz using one of dem Banjo Luhrs.

I don't think the flossing thing is as easy as many believe. There were tons of people trying, and most of them weren't even keeping close to us with numbers of fish. We were probably just on a good streak.

I never thought I would say it, but fishing with the drones for the past 20 years has turned me in to a Sockeye Whackin Machine.

RA3: The law is the law, and no one is "Above the Law". I think that was a line from Steven Sial [Seagal] (aka Nieco) in the movies Above the law. Certain tax brackets require a certain amount of taxes to be paid. If you want to go above and beyond, please pay my taxes too.

No sense in trying to be perfect. It was attempted once by a great man thousands of years ago, and he ended up by being hung on a cross.

Peace

If you are talking about the same 'great man' i'm thinking of, that would be just about 2000 years ago and he did live a perfect life and his death was tempory, and he was not just a 'great man' - he was actually God in human flesh...

Wow - this really is turning into a religious debate

Jerry.

There is no reason to respect snaggers. If you think it's hateful for me to think that doing a bad thing is bad then I am hateful but understand this I don't hate anyone, I hate what they do and snagging sickens me so much so that i refuse to even use methods where foul hooking a fish happens on even rare occasions. If you think it's ok to snag so be it but if you do it around me expect a visit from the game warden and a day in court because i WILL turn you in and will take a day off work to testify against you.
Flossing is illegal in the state of Washington and people who do it are scumbags period!
That doesn't mean i hate them that means that what they do is absolutely disgusting and abhorent to me therefore i call them scumbags. A simple walk on any salmon river in October shows you how little respect these people have for anyone but themselves so that also makes them selfush as...les.

RA3:

I thought we were talking about flossing in B.C.(where it's LEGAL) where did flossing in Washington come into the conversation?

I agree snaggers/flossers in Washington (where it's ILLEGAL) are scum but that's not the original topic of this post.

Anyway I'll think about your position tonight as I bbq a nice fat BC sockeye fillet :p .

BD

RA3 I don't snag fish and don't floss fish [ unless I go to BC with Bobber down next sockeye season] never said I thought it was ok in Washington BUT where it is deemed legal by the authorities I don't believe I can say much to those that follow the letter of the law. I myself reserve those scumbag feelings for those humans that don't value other humans.. The only way you can guarantee to NEVER EVER snag a fish is to fish without a hook or don't fish at all.

But now on the good news side you can go out flossin'/linin' or snaggin'(whichever sounds best) at least until tuesday night on the Fraser. D.F.O. canada has extended the season longer.

RA3,

I bow down to your greatness. You stand on a sportsmans pedastal in the defense of all of the fishes. There is only one thing left for you to do....PUT YOUR FISHING POLE DOWN!!! You might hurt something

RA3,

I respect your courage for speaking your mind. But in this instance I agree with most everyone else, even GOOOSE(that doesn't happen often)!!! You are so into your self-righteousness that you can't see out. I've eaten whale in Japan(it was good!), dog in Korea(okay, but nothing to go back for) and I'm open to just about anything. The point is.... your ideas of right and wrong are YOURS and common only HERE in WA. If it makes you feel good to hold your nose high, more power to you, but the fact remains that you're ignorant for thinking that somehow WA morals are somehow more relevant than others'. It is nice to see you take the high ground as you see it, but you need to get out of your burrow!

ALOT! of fish "bit" the hook today up on the Fraser.
I ended up playing Taxi driver for a few Yanks willing to spend the BIG BUCKS to "Catch" 2 sockeye. I'm still too sore to cast. I watched, and played with my "NEW" stainless steel zipper sewn into my shoulder down to my chest.
Everyone but 1 guy, got fish. Easy, Meat Feast? NOT!
There were more fish in the river today than I've seen all last week.
Jetted passed my old friend "THE NET!" piled up on the beach, cut up into many pieces.
Bowed my head, glared and paid my respects (letting it known it's number one) as I passed by.
All of the nets today had "alot" of juggs on them. WOW, that's a great idea! Someone in the tribe can think! Must of been the Chief.
Sorry, alittle sarcasam, I'm only human.

I was wondering, when we are fishing with eggs,(or a Wet Fly) drift fishing, how do we "KNOW", that King, Steelhead or Silver "bit" the hook instead of just being flossed with a glob of eggs? :p
What are the chances of a fish hooked in the mouth, that it could of been FLOSSED? Um, could it possiably... no way I'm a PURIST "They all bite my hooks!"

"Have a Nice Day!"

GEE

When in Rome do as who?????? Who said that?????
Ever wonder why?

I have come to the conclusion that I have a chronic gas problem

There goes another one. But seriously, I am one of those guys that learned to fish on a river that is known for flossing. Maybe I should have just said the Cowlitz. I had absolutely no idea I was snagging fish until Herzog told me one day while shopping at Sportco. I made an immediate decision to stop after that. Yes, I caught far fewer fish, but the reward is so much greater when you hook a fish using your own secret cure or concoction. After being a "purist" for a year or so I will admit that I flossed a little bit this summer. However, I will only do so in a river that has an excess of hatchery stock, ie: Cowlitz. Those fish are created for the BBQ. I wouldn't go around bragging that I flossed fish on the Fraser. Even though 90% of the guys out there do it, you are still tampering with a native stock. You could still catch a decent amount of fish using a two foot leader. Save the lining for recycled fish!

Well, everyone else and his brother have jumped in here so why not? In response to the question, best paraphrased "how do you know if the fish bit or you lined it?" - well, you don't, unless you design your gear to facilitate lining over biting and know in advance that is what is going on. Things like leaders longer than 2 feet facilitate lining, so do using things like small corkies that hold your long leader at fish mouth elevation above the bottom. Unfortunately, so does fly fishing for stacked up adult salmonids with deepwater express, which is why I don't do much of it anymore (yep, I'm in the camp that prefers the fish bite rather than bite the fish myself). I too didn't realize what was going on - I thought that if you used a fly line and a single barbless hook there was no way you could purposefully snag fish - until I found a perftect fly pool on the Satsop one dry fall that had tons of huge bright chum stacked in it that fell for the fly one after the other I thought - until one afternoon when the backlight was just right and I could see what was going on. The relatively short 3 foot leader I was using would touch their teeth breifly, they would open their mouths wide and shake their head, and in would go the fly. All the fish I hooked were caught on the inside of the mouth in the corner of the jaw on the same side I was standing on, but none if them bit the fly, the fly always bit them. The fact that I wasn't trying to snag fish and that I always c&r'd them didn't matter to me - I was snagging and all the fun went out of it, even though it was prior to that time - and still would be if I could make them bite - a blast fighting huge chum on my low-tech knuckle buster fly gear. This is, however, a personal problem that I would not foist onto others who enjoy the landing no matter how they catch them - and for you for whom ignorance is bliss, sorry.

OK. I understand that the theory behind this is that there are "plenty" of fish and this fishery exsists so that people can take fish home and that is why people go there and "fish" the way they do. I understand that but i don't agree with it. However i suppose i should not have called anyone a scumbag.
I hope you guys understand my concern though. That type of fishing has spread like a plague here in Southwest Washington and Northern oregon. it becomes acceptable to snag whenever fish become difficult to catch legally. That I believe is an incredibly bad thing.

RA3,
I think the people who try and force their moralities on others have done far greater harm to the world then those who have hooked a few fish on the outside of the mouth....but given your argument is strictly emotional, you may not be able to see the truth in that.

Craven morehead

I disagree I think people deciding that morality is a personal choice to believe or not to believe has done misslions(literally) times more damage than people pushing their morality on other people. Granted we are gatting away from the topic at hand but as an example Hitler decided to forego morality by ignoreing a small well known passage "thou shalt not commit Murder" because he wanted to make up his own morality and suggest that certain people it didn't matter if you murdered them or not. The same could be said for Stalin. Another example would be senator Mcarthy who ignored our constitution, ignored the morality of government as laid down by our founding fathers to pursue a witch huntof UnAmerican activities.
When people set aside morality things go bad PERIOD!

Granted, we are only talking about fishing but when someone chooses to set aside ethics in the sport it is bad for all of us. Your own personal rights to do whatever you want are NOT more important that everyone elses rights. There are long established traditions in salmon and steelhead fishing, to maintain the quaity of experience that we all seek we all must abide by thoes traditions. If everyone started fishing over spawning fish ( on redds) we would quickly have no fish left.

We need morals wether in life of on the river and people need to abide by them.

RA3 I think that you are mixing up "morality" and "ethics", especially since you use them interchangably. There is probably a difference. "Morality" implies the rules set down by the Almighty, and I really doubt that God much gives a hoot whether or not we line or snag fish. "Ethics" implies conformity to common human values, and that is more likely what we are talking about. Big difference.

Thumper.. it's probably time for this thread to die but anyway... Ethics and morality may not be interchangable but the concept of both are very much related. They are both rules for governing behavior. All i am saying is that some behaviors should not be displayed on a stream by anyoe, let alone thoes professiong to be sportsmen. I believe that as an absolute because i don't feel that I have the right to go out and ruin anyone elses day. Snaggers very often ruin the day foreveryone else, just like the guy who achors up in the middle of a trolling area. wether it's morality or ethincs or whateverr else we choose to call it people should behave properly while in the field, if they don't they show disrespect for everyone else out there and for the resource itself. it is such people I am referring to when i use strong language. I think it is unsportsman like to snag a fish no matter the species, the purpose you have for the fish or the willingness of that species to bite.
Snagging IS ethically wrong no one should ever be doing it for any reason.

RA3 Your right about snagging on most species, and of course none of us would condone anyone snagging in an Redd area. Never!

But...If you truly believe Quote-"Snagging is ethically wrong and no one should ever be allowed to do it" Maybe you alone have the answer?
There are many states,LOTS, which allow it to remove an over abundance of certian fish from a system.
They could kill them or... allow people to buy licenses, and contribute money to the Game Dept, and inturn, take some fish home to feed to their families?
Which would you do if you ran the Game Dept?

Could all of these states and their highly educated biologists be wrong and you are right?
Remember, All you "Purist", next time you land a fish and even though it's hooked on the inside of the mouth (All but 2 of my sockeye were)you should release it, because you can't be 100% certian beyond doubt,you didn't accidentally "Floss it"

I don't have the answer, Everytime I think I do someone always shows me another way.

Just my .O2

GEE

G-Man and RA3 in every case given those types of behaviours are socially acceptable for those fisheries....simple as that. In Washington snagging is prohibited because it was found to be a socially unacceptable form of taking fish in Washington. In regards to socalled flossing I suggest the difference between flossing and snagging is that in the first case someone is actively trying to hook the fish in the mouth whereas with snagging someone is only trying to hook the fish somewhere between the mouth and the tail. I fished boondoggin style(flossing?) for steelies for the first time this year and all of my few fish were hooked inside the mouth and the many fish my friends hooked were inside the mouth. Were we attempting to snag? No. Was it unsportsmanlike? No...certainly not with 8 pound test. I can see the difference.

Interesting post Spawnout. So, how can you ever be sure that you haven't flossed? And if you are using a trailer hook that hangs back a bit, isn't that kind of cheating? If the fish didn't really want to swallow your bait, but just scare it away, and ends up getting hooked, shouldn't trailer hooks be immoral? Maybe we should only get to keep the fish that swallow our lure.... Kind of takes all the fun out of fishing doesn't it?

People... They are FISH.... Surely you cant be serious about this. Yes, protect the fishery, but what is allowed is allowed, vent your anger at meetings... geesh.

Thank you RA3, you made my point EXACTLY!
In your above post, you mention both Hitler and McCarthy.... both of these people decided to take the law of the land and change it to fit their own personal views because they, as individuals, with their own ideals of morality deemed it improper....now...how does this differ from you? The law of the land in BC allows for this flossing technique....but you, as an individual, want to impose your own morality on everyone, because YOU, deem it improper.

As I said before, I didn't think you would be able to see the truth in this.

Craven,

it is common for laws to allow and encourage unethical behavior. What i am saying is that ethical anglers will not want to participate and unethical fishermen ruin everyone elses experience. Suggesting that we are only talking about Canada is absurd. because these same people come down here and do the exact same thing here. It DOES breed anglers who really do not care how they catch fish and when a fish is hard to catch they will resort to snagging. I have seen it a thousand times. If it was limited to the frasier river sockeye i probably wouldn't have said anything but the fact is it is not. on top of that it is becoming an accepted method of angling everywhere.
Snagging is unethical period if anyione has a problem with that well then they are more concerned about themselves than the resource or other people and that by deffinition makes them selfish.
Thats the simple application of login NOT my opinion.

RA3....as has been stated several times, this thread was started about flossing fish in the Fraser...where it is a legal practice ....that is the period.

I think everyone on this board will agree that intentionally trying to stick a hook into a fish by yanking hooks through the water several times a drift is wrong morally, ethically and legally....but the rub comes into play when you want to lump a group of people fishing a legal technique (that you don't agree with) in a place that it is legal to do so.....and you blanketly label all of them "scumbags" and continue your rants in the face of logic

Well, I thought this thread would be dead by now. Just my two cents worth but ..... I think that we are now taking away from what this board is for. How about taking it to the Chat Room instead? Thanks...

How about letting the moderators moderate the BB.

That's what you are doing right Dan?

It was only a suggestion.

I'll agree in this case, I think this horse was dead some time ago