Here's a question for all of you who think you know something about Washington law.

On the Green River, (a tributary to the Toutle River) lies a state owned and operated salmon and trout hatchery. The only access to the state hatchery runs through and across Weyerhaeuser property off the 19 mile road. Weyerhaeuser has closed off entry to their property by claiming that it is doing so because of fire hazard. Yet a few special employees of Weyerhaeuser who have keys to locked gates above the salmon hatchery area are allowed to pass through the closed entry area to fish on the fish that are products of the state hatchery.

I do not know what the state has for easements, but it still is state controlled property and has been used by the general public for way more then eight years.

Can Weyerhaeuser, or for that matter any other private entity deny the public access to or from state owned property, or to harvest state produced fish from that state property? I have heard first hand from a local game warden that he gave out three tickets yesterday to people who had passed the closed area signs going to the state owned Green River Hatcher. How can a private party prevent a person from entry to a state owned facility?

What do you think is wrong with this picture?

Cowlitzfisherman
Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Question #1... Does the State have a valid, deeded right of way across the Weyerhauser land?? Or, is it an easement, with restrictions.

Question #2... Does anyone have enough time and money to take Weyerhauser to court, to prove the right of public access because of a prescriptive easement established by years of use?

Question #3... If you can prove the public easement, will it still stand up during fire season??

Don't know about the WeyCo employees fishing behind locked gates....my first guess is that it's perfectly legal.

TR

I could give an official opinion on this, but I'd have to charge you my usual rate of only $150/hour. The Rogue hit it on the head. There MIGHT be a prescriptive easement here, tho it's hard to tell from the facts presented. And you would, indeed, have to go to court to prove it.

I guess I'd look at this way: if you had a house on the river, would you want people traipsing through your back yard to get to your honey hole?

Now, the river itself is public property. Perhaps you should invest in a good sled and launch on public property.

P.S. You think you got it bad in Western WA, try driving across the Hanford Reservation some time where guys with Uzis will put the stop to you!

obviously steelydan doesn't know that boat traffic is not possible here. I do know that if weyerhauser employees were caught using the land for personal reasons they would be fired on the spot. My ol man has been cutting for them for ever and if he even thought about hunting on their land he would no longer be there. But its their property so they should be able to do whatever they want.

How about the hatchery employees? Can they cross Weyco land to go to work? How about the guy who lives at the hatchery? How is it somehow less dangerous for those guys to cross weyerhauser's land, but the average Joe is locked out? And what about the loggers? Arew they working right now or are they locked out too? The way I see it, If its still safe for the loggers and the hatchery employees to be up on the 19 mile road, then its safe for us to be up there too. Everyone with half a brain knows that this isn't about fire danger, this is about Weyerhauser finally finding a loophole in the system that will allow them to landlock yet another piece of public property..... And right at the start of the Fall run on the Green no less. I'm not an attorney, so I can't speak on the legality of what Weyerhauser is doing, I can say though, that what Weyerhauser is doing is ethically wrong. Anytime a big company uses its holdings as a way to bully the common man, it's wrong. Perhaps there is some kind of a class action that could be filed against weyerhauser. I mean, this is not the first time Weyerhauser has landlocked public land, and it should be illegal to do so. Anyhow, I hate weyerhauser for the things they do.... I hope that all the "Higher ups" in the company get prostate cancer.

This has been a problem for us hunters for years now. Did you know that Weyerhuaser controls twice as much land in this state then the WDFW? I say control because most of the land is ours, but they bought the timber rights. So they close it off to "protect" their trees. Yet bill the state when wildlife damages the trees. We get screwed six ways to Sunday and they get away with it. I would jump on a chance to get aboard a class action lawsuit. This is one of those situations that is border line legal because no one has stepped up and fought Big Businesss. On the land they do own, they pay VERY low taxes yet if we try to lower our taxes, the state stomps down on it. Kind of makes you wonder who is getting back door loving.

I would never wish cancer on anyone.

SteelieDan

As an attorney, I think that you already know the correct answer. Look at what you already have said; "I guess I'd look at this way: if you had a house on the river, would you want people trespassing through your back yard to get to your honey hole?''

Well what if those same people paid for that same property that you are going to use to get to that "honey hole", or they had bought that "honey hole"?

It really doesn't matter what you or I would "want", does it? What difference is there if you had a house on the river, and you invited all of your friends to go fishing on your property? Do you really think that the person(s) who owns the property leading to your house can legally stop (or keep out) all of your friends from using that same road to go fishing on the property that you have easements rights too?

There's really no difference is there? People who own property at point "A" cannot legally stop people who have rights to visit the property of point "B", or using the property of "B" (unless there is clear restrictive writen language in the easement of such property, right?

Glad to see that you at lease have the guts to speak up! Most attorneys don't, unless, like you have said, pay up the $150+ bucks!

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

LZZ, your 1 insensitive s.o.b., that has obviously never seen anyone die of cancer, I lost my dad a year ago and I would never wish that on ANYONE, even you.

As a former employee of weyerhauser and one whose dad retired from them, I can say that closed lands are a way of life down here. I grew up in that area and fished and hunted there when I was younger and spent numerous hours on the Green due to my best friend being the hatchery superintendents kid. I have seen totally disrespectful practices from the general public on what they call, "their land". I can see why any company would close their land due to theft, neglect thru garbage dumping and vandalism in the form of fires and destroying property. I'm disappointed when they close land off to the public but I know why. I'm sure the general public wouldn't want strangers destroying their vehicles and setting their roses and fruit trees on fire in their own backyard. What really closed this area off was the eruption of Mt. St. Helens destroying the bridge across the N. Toutle leading to Cook Rd. Cook rd. was public and went straight to the hatchery. Cowlitz fisherman, some people have waded across the N. fork just above the mouth of the Green to get there. You might try this. But, once you get there, if the word gets out, there will be so many 'snaggers' in the area that I can't be there without wanting to throw them in the river and see how they like someone running a big ol hook their arse. Just my two cents. And LZZ, watching my dad battle throat cancer and seeing how he lives now breathing thru a hole in his neck and not being able to smell or taste like he used to tears me up. To wish cancer on anyone is just being a heartless SOB.

I know of two similar situations in Cowlitz county except that they involve public (DNR) land. One is on huge tract is just below the Lewis River hatchery to the north of the highway. A landowner subdivided a small parcel along the access road and the new homeowners pressured DNR to install a locked gate allowing only the homeowners access. A DNR employee responded to my complaint by saying that state access only applied to DNR, not the public. So the homeowners on 5 acre lots now have a huge hunting reserve for themselves, paid for bu us.

Wow, touched a nerve with the whole "wishing prostate cancer on the Weyerhauser executives" thing. Didn't mean to offend anyone, but at least you guys got an idea of how I feel about what Weyerhauser isdoing to us sportsmen.... Anyway, I watched one of my best friends die from cancer about six years ago and yeah, its real bad.... Bad enough that it is almost a befitting fate of those who'd keep us from excercising our right (Yes, I said right, not priviledge) to hunt and fish on public lands and to have access to those lands. We shouldn't have to cross the Friggin Toutle to fish the Green. There's a road right into the hatchery and a big ass parking lot that was built a couple of years ago and was payed for with OUR money! So screw Weyerhauser and their "Fire Danger", And screw the State of Washington for backing Weyerhauser up! Yeah, I was right the first time, they DO deserve cancer.

Oh, shucks. I forgot that you guys are in Western WA. In that case, my rate is $225/hour. I'll be posting my bill to the board later for prompt payment.

I feel obligated to make a comment on the original subject of this thread but really don't know the details so am hesitant to do so. Yes, it seems unfair to provide state funds for a hatchery program (and the associated access road, parking lot, etc.) without allowing for it's intended use. Still, if you can't see the relationship between increased use and increased risk, you need to get into a remedial math class. Frankly it seems the fault lies with the state sinking money into it without getting a guarantee for access, but that's just my gut reaction without knowing any of the specific details.

LZZ, no matter how many people you've seen die from cancer (and I haven't seen one, but I HAVE lived with two people that have gone through chemo and radiation, one of them an accelerated program that nearly killed him, but in the end saved his life), it's not a meaningful excuse to wish it on someone else.

All you've done is give me (and obviously a number of other people) the impression that you value your own recreational time over human life. Either that, or you figure you can say whatever you want, since this is just the internet. I doubt you'd stand up in a public forum and say the same thing. Please tell me I'm right.

Skywalker & anyone else who cares: If you dont think that I'd make these same comments in public, ie, down on the river bank or anywhere else for that matter, then you obviously dont know me and haven't followed my posts over the last year and a half. there's nothing I post on this BB that I wouldn't say in person, and anyone off of the BB who knows me in "real life" will attest to that. Pissing people off has never been a real concern of mine. As for the whole "cancer thing", BIG NEWS FLASH....... I was speaking figuratively! I was searching for some way to convey my distaste for Weyerhauser and evidently I hit the nail on the head..... Anyhow, the thread is about public access, not cancer. We're all grown men here, so let's dry our eyes and get beck to the issue of land access.... I swear, some of you guys are way too in tune with your feminine sides.

LIGHTEN UP! I am a cancer surviver and I didnt take offence even though that was a little harsh. I deal with the same problem on the tucannon with private land owners but I dont get mad cause like was said before all the JA's ruin it for the rest of us.

I have a couple questions. When was the last time there was a major forest fire on the west side of the cascades? Did we not have an above normal snow pack? Are we not within a few inches of normal rainfall for the year? Isn't Weyerhaeuser land a managed forest? Are not managed forest supposed to be less prone to forest fires? In my opinion Weyerhaeuser used forest fires in other areas of the nation to justifty their closing of lands. There are 1000's of acres of state owned public land that has been blocked off since July because Weyerhaeuser closed the only access to the land, by closing the 4200 corridor road.

Great question Trouter!

Should Weyerhaeuser be allowed to close off access to public (state property), yet get the benefits of fire protection from state funds? Whenever there is a forest fire, isn't it the state that's called in to fight them? How many of our access areas have been closed off due to state land trades with Weyerhaeuser or other large timber corporations?

Cowlitzfisherman
Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

Unfortunately, as so often seems to be the case nowadays, what's right to most of us, isn't necessarily what's legal.

Should be a fairly simple process to find out the status of the access to the hatchery. County courthouse would be the starting point. That is the first step. If there's a true rights-of-way with no pertinent restrictions, then the next step is to contact WDFW and DNR, and find out why the gate's locked blocking public access.

If there's restrictions on the rights-of-way, or easement, you've got a much larger problem. Go find a big bankroll somewhere that's willing to fork out the $$ to fight WeyCo....and be prepared for a LONG fight.

We here in the NW aren't really big potatoes to this company anymore...they've got such big holding in the SE and worldwide that don't have the environmental and other restrictions, that they're mostly just sitting tight up here.

TR

well at least we now know for sure steelie dan is an atty, few other types of humans have the audacity to give bad advice (take your sled up the green) & raise his rates ($ $225 from $150) AND EXPECT PROMPT PAYMENT ...

Max:

Thanks for calling me a human. That's the nicest thing anybody's ever said about me.

I probably shouldn't do this but I here is a question for you. First of all I will say I think we should have access through the land, but if Wey,co's sole business is run off timber from the land they own?, I can see why they take such an interest in protecting it. If fires (even if they are rare) destroy a small part of the forest they own it's probably a large dollar amount lost to the company? Now again, as such a big company I would hope they would offer access just to keep a friendly relationship with us. Wishful thinking I know. I'm actually trying to see it from there perspective. It just doesn't make sense how certain people can have access.

Come now!

When was the last time I tried to get any of you to pay for my opinons?

(I figure you're paying enough by having to read them!)

Bob, I'm pretty sure that the gamies aren't able to give trespassing tickets that aren't for trespassing on closed state lands...I'd guess it would have to be the Sheriff to give out trespassing tickets for private property.

I'd also heard that last year you were able to drive to the hatchery, as long as you stayed on the road and didn't dawdle. Perhaps not true, just what I heard.

If access is being denied, eight years of public use to access public lands, with WeyCo's knowledge and tacit permission, sounds like a prescriptive easement to me. There may even be an actual easement since the state started operations up at the hatchery again and all the workers had to access the hatchery via 19 Mile Rd.

Any response from Croswell yet?

Fish on...

Todd.

Another thought to ponder, at least in this case anyway. If I'm not mistaken (and I probably am) Weyerhauser had a lot of trouble with vandalism to some of their equipment in that area? In this case, I'd wager that's probably the REAL reason they want to deny access. Think for a moment about the type of "fisherman" that frequents hatchery holes. (yeah, I know it's a generalization, but sadly, it's mostly true) We've ALL seen the snagging, littering, law-breaking scum that congregate at these type of fisheries. We probably have them to thank for being denied access.

Todd

Good to hear from you again!

Todd, I head it from our local game warden "Foster". I was about 50 feet away, but I confirmed it with my fishing partner who was talking to Foster. He said that he has already ticked three people that day for criminal trespass. I do not know if he caught them parking of the 19 mile road and then fishing the Toutle or not.

I did hear back from Ray Croswell today on my recorder. He is getting me the information that I have requested. It is still very early, but it appears that Weyerhaeuser may be playing games!

It may be called a "sign Game"!!!

We will see if Weyerhaeuser has the legal authority to keep fishermen out of the areas that has already been developed by the state hatchery.

SteelieDan

Thanks for your impute, but even on this board, it's all free!!! Please keep your comments coming. If you think that you can make a difference, please don't be afraid to give us your valuable impute. After all, we are all dedicated fishermen, or why else are we even hear?

Thanks for everyone's support

Cowlitzfisherman

Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

I have to say this year has been bad for fires. We had three get within a mile of our house this year. I was in the woods in August and a good fart would have burned down half of western WA. It is better now, but still high. As for WeyCO, the best "sign" game I saw was on Ft. Lewis. In area 23 they posted a big area closed to public access due to fire danger. This is on a federal installation. When I asked a MP about it he told me Weyco could go pee up a rope. If you elk hunters noticed, and I am sure you did, last year Weyco ditched and gated most of the Mossyrock and Winston creek woods. The land there is co-owned by about four different agencies. You could not reach the state stuff because of a big old ditch right in the middle of the road. Said it was because of vandalism. I heard of about three "gate pulling" incidents in Oct-Nov. What needs to happen is vandals and dumpers need to be severly punished. I mean 2000 hours of trash picking up, in the WOODS, in their POV which is then taken by the state. Along with jail time and a huge fine paid to the state DFW and land owner. If someone were to be tossed in jail for a month, spend about a year picking up trash, pay a 5000 dollar fine and loose their car, dumping would drop off sharply. To increase the likely hood getting caught, anyone who photographs or records the dumper in the act would be paid a reward of 1000 dollars upon conviction. Or maybe just be shot on site and buried under the trash they dumped. That would work too. As for the game wardens and criminal citations, most GW's are fully commissioned law enforcement officers. Which means on top of the required four year degree, they went to the police acadamy and have the same rights as a cop.

4Salt: Doesn't really matter about the vandelism or the dumping. The cold hard fact of the matter is that Weyerhauser has no right to keep us off of OUR land. Its a state run hatchery and as such, we have a right to be there. Like I said before, the state just spent a whole bunch of our dollars to put in a big parking lot and now we can't even use it. Kind of seems like a big waste. Of course none of this is of any cocern to you because you're way to uppity to ever be caught dead fishing in the same vicinity as us white trash fishermen who frequent the hatchery holes.

I talked to Mr. Foster personally last Wed. or Thurs. And he told me he was writing criminal trespass tickets left and right just for being on the 1900 road.
You could not use it at all.
He was also in the process of taking pictures of " No public access signs" when I talked to him.
Maybe to back his tickets if you go to court?I don't know.

Hey there Huntnfish, Did you by chance happen to ask Foster exactly how we were supposed to access our hatchery if not by means of the 19 mile road?

Cowlitzfisherman, what exactly do you mean by the term "sign game"? You couldn't possibly be implying that Weyerhauser is knowingly and wantonly posting land that they have no legal right to post? I know that Weyerhauser is capable of anything, but guys are actually getting tickets and having to go to court over this. If it is found that Weyerhauser has no right to post no entry signs on the 19mile road, then they should be forced to totally compensate everyone who was written tickets for tresspassing,ie, court costs, attorneys fees, time off from work, etc.

No Zo,

It's not about being uppity at all. Do you see yourself as a white trash snagger? If not, then why do you assume I'm refferring to you? If you want to fish those nightmare snagfests hey that's completely up to you. You'll also notice that I admitted using a generalization. You and I, I'm sure get something different out of our fishing experiences. To me, it's more for relaxation, maybe a little solitude, and testing my SKILLS to see if I can't entice a fish or 2 to actually BITE. I used to be into catching sheer numbers, and fished places like Stevens creek on the Hump or the Carbon etc... I guess I've just reached a point in my life where I'm not obsessed with bringing home a limit of (usually dark) fish. To each his own.

p.s. I'm not defending Weyerhauser at all. They don't have any right to deny public access. I was just offering a possible explanation as to why we are having this problen.

I tend to agree with LittleZoZo.

LittleZoZo, I don't know for sure about the "sign game" thing yet. I will know more after I get the material that I have requested from WDFW. I wouldn't put anything pass Weyerhaeuser when it comes to controlling public access.

It's really hard for me to see how any private enterprise can legally prevent the public from accessing state owned property. But like so often, we fishermen always allow the big corporate boys to overrun our fishing access rights. I hope that this thread will start the wheels a turning that will turn around this trend. Ignorance has been, and still is our worse enemy. I known if it was me that got a ticket for going to the Green River Hatchery, all hell would brake loose, and I would have my day in court one way or another!

It's also a shame that our local game wardens are now cow telling to people like Weyerhaeuser when it comes to ticketing people for trespass under the "fire danger" scam. wouldn't their time be much better spent writing tickets for poching or snaging? And they (the game wardens) wonder why no one likes them or wants to raise their pay. The last major forest fire in this area was caused by no one else other then Weyerhaeuser themselves! It was one of their own famous slash burns that got away from their own burners!

So now, we fishermen are being blamed for their stupidity. We must make sure that we keep our fishing and hunting access open. We must not sit ideally by and take the big corporations word that we don't have the right to use or enter the land that we have paid for.

Cowlitzfisherman
Is the taste of the bait worth the sting of the hook????

When I asked Mr. Foster how we are supposed to get access to the Green river. He told me that you can go to the sediment dam.Park there.Wade the Toutle and fish the Green, because that is all state land.He told me specifically that there is no public access through 19 mile.That wading the Toutle is the only way to get there.
I also heard rumors that the Weyco land will reopen on Wed.I'm really curious to see if this materializes.

Yeah, well if wading the toutle is the only way to get to the Green, then I want to see ALL the hatchery employees wading the Toutle every morning to get to work. Same thing with the Guy who lives up at the hatchery. Make him park at the sediment dam andwade to get to and from home every day. If Weyerhauser lets those guys use the 19 mile road, then they cansure as hell let us use it too.

We have the same problem down here in Oregon. Willamette industries has dug up roads leading to state owned pocket lands. Totally messed up. If I had money I would sue to get access open up.

Without having read all of the above posts...

In Skagit County a lot of the timber land is owned by Crown Pacific. Nearly all of the CP land is gated to prevent access. All one need to do to get access is to contact CP. They give you a free permit and the combination to any gate that you want access to. Does WeyCo. have a similar program?

At certain times of the year they open a lot of the gates for hunters. However, probably not during peak fire danger.

Looking at it from their side...If I had billions of dollars in timber on my property, I would want to protect it also. As far as the gates go, I can't blame them there either. Illegal wood cutting, illegal garbage dumping, & abandoned vehicles just to name a few reasons. We have a few bad apples(scum bags) that ruin it for all of us.

As far as access goes to state land thru WeyCO property goes, sounds like the good ol' State of Washigton didn't do they're homework. Like one of the other posters mentioned, why put all that money into the hatchery and not have guaranteed access to it? Hopefully WeyCo does the right thing for public relations and allows access when there is no fire danger.

Camo