My very own conspiracy theory. Figured 5am was as good a time as any to share it on the web.

I'll start with the theory itself:

OBL was killed during the battle of Tora Bora in Dec of 2001. I'll give a date 12/16/2001.

Now the motives for keeping it secret:

1. GW benefits from the public believing the bogeyman is still out there. If bad folk is still alive then public gives him free reign to 'protect us'.

2. Al Queda benefits by having a leader who has challenged the Great Satan and walked away alive.


Facts supporting conclusion that OBL is Dead.


1. No credible video since end of Nov 2001. Any video that has surfaced either are obvious imposters, or not so obvious. Either way, video has been scarce since Dec 2001. Google up OBL video and you'll find some great webpages doing comparisons between known OBL pics and the latest videos. Even if the last one was a good fake, some of the authenticated tapes are completely obviously NOT OBL. Why would they pass them off as being real?

OBL video link

2. Audio tapes have been authenticated by "US intelligence officals", but never by anyone willing to give thier name for the record. Google it up. Its always "officials". Someday the truth will come out and Rummy, Dummy, and Cheney will all be able to say "Well I never said he was alive". One of those "authenticated" audio tapes was independently studied by an independant Swiss reserch group, they gave a statement they were 100% sure it was NOT OBL. And never a counterstatement from the White House. Case dropped.

link swiss researcher group

3. Rummy was specifically asked 2 years ago at a news conference "Is OBL dead or alive?" His answer was a wise ass "Yes". He refused to give anything more then that.

4. Since Dec 2001 Bush has mysteriously lost personal interest in finding OBL.

5. Bush keeps a list of the most wanted terrorists in the top drawer of his desk in the Oval office. He mentioned the list during a 20/20 interview. He said he couldn't show who on it was captured or dead, but did say he marked them off his list as they were 'taken care of'. Now I remember them bragging about every high level capture or kill they have made except for 2, OBL and that Jackas Taliban Mullah Omar.

6. Shortly after Tora Bora a report on NPR was done on how the military has tissue samples from several of OBL's family. Those samples were being kept at the base on the East Coast where they process military remains. Evidently samples from Tora Bora were going to be analyzed against those tissue samples from OBL's family. Why the hell would they be doing that? Never any follow up reports. Believe me I looked, this is the story that got me thinking.

7. Several reports have gone out from different sources over 'power struggles' within Al Queda. Why would thier be a power struggle if OBL was alive?

8. (this is the only non-public/non-verifiable info I am going to give) Early summer I get an email from someone I'd been exchanging correspondence with for a couple years. He is involved with operations in Afghanistan. Thats all you get I dont need him buried in some hole in Turkey. He tells me that morale among troops in afghanistan is falling. They have killed anybody important, and the little guys are dead or humping goats in Pakistan. They get sent around the countryside on pointless missions since December. 90% of the 'company' guys are gone too. Why the sudden change in only 3-4 months?


9. Tora Bora was not some huge screw up. Multiple reports were made that hundreds of American special forces troops had surrounded the area known to be the last hidout of OBL. B 52's were turning the hills into parking lots. He farted and Spec Ops were analyzing what he had for lunch.

Tora Bora


I can get other links as requested. The truth is out there.


Vince

Dude, you have really raised the level of dialog around here.

Nice work vh, I'd often wondered about the 'videos'. and have seen some of the links before.
It is interesting that the 'no denials' from the WH regarding 'authenticity have ever been issued. Certainly sets up the 'plausible deniabilty' scenario for them though.
The Valerie Plame case seems headed in the same direction, as parsing Roves attorney's statement we find Rove never 'knowingly' divulged the identity of a covert agent.
The words now are being measured by the drop by Bish and company on this one, as you would expect.

True patriots , eh?

KK

as far as "US intelligence officals", do you think they'd give their name to the media?? It's actually probably some geek working in the depths of a concrete office that no one has ever heard of before.

To you and I he may not seem credible but what do we really know about this stuff??


6. Shortly after Tora Bora a report on NPR was done on how the military has tissue samples from several of OBL's family. Those samples were being kept at the base on the East Coast where they process military remains. Evidently samples from Tora Bora were going to be analyzed against those tissue samples from OBL's family. Why the hell would they be doing that? Never any follow up reports. Believe me I looked, this is the story that got me thinking.

Maybe because after those B-52's and B-2's get done there's no possible way to tell what the remains are?? Heck they find a body here in the states and have no clue who it is most of the time.

I have maintained OBl has been dead since TB as well.

Just imagine where Dubya's polling numbers would be if the public knew 3 years ago OBL was dead. He'd be at 70% unfavorable rating. All he would have are the home schooling Southern Baptists.

I think it is less about what happens here vs turning him into a martyr over there.

I think it is very important for Dubya that people think OBL is alive. Does anybody really believe Iraq would have been possible with Osama dead? The publics attention would have quickly drifted off to something else.

Hey VH
Why do you waste what is obviously a great deal of inteligence and political insight cooking these things up? It seems like all the lefties on this board are so busy drumming up reasons to hate the current administration and its foreign policy that they have lost sight of the fact that even if it was wrong from the outset we are up to our noses in it now. Do you think we could fust end our involvement today without serious international backlash?
And yes, Iraq would have been possible if OBL were dead since they made the case for war there with the misconception that there were WMDs around. The propaganda would have been something like "well we got one, lets go get another!"
The point is that no matter what anybody thinks or believes WHOEVER is in office is going to drive our contry in what ever direction he or she wants. Now mind you I'm about as conservative as they come but I'm not so close minded to admit that ALL administrations from Washington to Bush #2 have cooked up info and distorted truths in order to sell their policies.
OBL is still alive because to conceal that sort of thing would be suicide for Bush and his money even after he's out of office. We all know these conspiracies, if true, have a way of being blown wide open.
Just my thoughts
Jeff

I cannot believe that with all the gear and gadjits and satelittes and spies and troops that we cannot find any human being on the face of the earth if we really wanted to. There for I think we do not want to find Osama (Dumbya himself said "I dont give him much thought). Afterall if we were serious about hunting down Al Q, the money and troops set aside to do that by Congress would not have been needlessly diverted into Iraq.

I beleive he is alive and working with the Bush administration, towards some diabolical end a plebian like myself is too out of the loop to phathom.

Bonjour everyone!
Chives vous et correct monsieur! Mr. Bin Laden is alive and well. He and Monsiuer Boosh often dine at my mansion in the west Hollywood Hills.
After a magnificient feast we smoke CIA grown killer bud from our solid gold bongs and discuss how to ream the american public for every sheckle we can. We usually finish with dessert ( a nice gill-net caught native steelehead pie!), smoke a few cuban cigars and laugh hard about the dead american troops and their families. Mr Bin Laden is quite the humorist I can assure you....mon Deiu! how we laughed and laughed!

Chives I thought Vhwaks logic was about as convoluted and paranoid as one could get/ They have medication have you tried it?

well Kingy, the last sentence was bait and a half joke (who knows for real? not you thats for sure!)

But from the first paragraph can you point to specifically what is convoluted or paranoid?

Do we not have incredible satellite tech, a massive spy network, etc etc. Has there ever been a case where we could not locate someone we were seeking to find?

When Bush said he doesnt give Osamam much thought, does that sound like someone who really wants to capture him? Does diverting funds and troops set aside by congress to find osama to Iraq sound like he really wants to find them?

Do you have such little faith in our capabilities that you actually beleive it possible for him to remain hidden from us? Well i support our troops and have confidence in them, and am not gonna sit here and listen to you bad mouth the united states of america by claiming we are so inept we cannot find Osama. Dont hate our freedom King. Support our troops and beleive that had we really been looking they wulda found him dead or alive by now.
How can you hate our soldiers so much?

Medical marijuana maybe?

Oh wait... the Supreme Court yada yada yada. States rights shot down again. :rolleyes:

last thing I want is guberment weed. They'll charge me 50$ a pack, put filters on my joints, and add a healthy dose of arsenic to em to boot. Then tax me for the priveledge of purchasing their enhanced deathsticks.

Best way to screw something up completely? Let the government handle it.

I kid around alot, but even the biggest Bush mark should have the sense to admit something dont look and smell right here.

Then again, if you can beleive Iraq is about wmd, no wait freedom!, no wait 9/11! ...if you think if it werent for bush we'd all be speaking Saddamese by now...well then you can probably beleive everything Dumbya and the christian right tells ya. have fun with that, but dont complain when he ****s in your salmon beds, polutes your forests , or sends your son off to get his dick blown off in some godforsaken desert because halliburton stock needs to rise a few points.

I wish i could buy it all hook line and dink float, life sure would be easier as one of the cattle. but unfortunately i have eyes and a brain.

Chives,

I think with our technology he has been worm food since Tora Bora. I jump off where the conspiracy theories start. Binny serves us fine with the Muslim world thinking he is dead. I doubt it really makes that much difference here.
If anyone thinks that this alll started and ended with Bin laden they have a lot of homework to do. Bin Laden is an errand boy, sent by grocery clerks
to collect a bill.

Hate to break the news but that right there would be a conspiracy would it not? If bin laden is dead, and bush is keeping that info from us, is that not a conspiracy???? So you think the president is actually lying to the american public? for what purpose? I would think that a dead Bin Laden would be a feather in Bushies cap. I dont buy that he needs to be alive to grease the wheels of the iraqi invasion because he wasnt even given as the reason back then. It was all about those elusive wmds if you recall, no mention of Osama. Not only that the american public would go along with whatver he wanted anyway because thats just how dumb we are.

Osama an errand boy?hehe...for whom? What message is this errand boy bringing and for what purpose and who would send HIM as messenger? (This would be another conspiracy theory imy book, you seem to be implying Osama is acting on behalf of other unkown agents...is that not a conspiracy?)


Breifly as i can:
Osamam fought i afghanistan w/ the Mujihadeem backed by the USA against the russians. They won...hurray! Osama has pride and confidence in his army of rebels... oh joy!

fast forward a couple years, and Iraq invades Kuwait. Oh no cry the Saudis to america, please help us we cannot have Iraq on our border!!! Dont worry says Osama, my mujihadeem will fend them off! The saudi royal family takes one look at Osamas rag tag army, chuckles slightly and then calls to the US again to intervene (which we do quite gladly)
Osamam is pissed! Pissed at the Saudi Royal Family, pissed at the US. He becomes further enraged when after the conflict, US bases remain on Muslim holy ground. (is it completely wacko to blame us the USA? no doubt, dude your country invited us i there to protect you!)

And there you have it. Errand boy? hardly. INsane fanatic, most definetly.

Hope that helps some, its an abbreviated hstory of the conflict and Osamas rationale as best as it can be described , but I think fairly accurate.

chives,

This whole thing started 50 years ago and has a bigger purpose than anyone person. Names like Arafat and Bin Laden are just more notable than others. Binny is an errand by for Muhamed and mainstream Islam.

Oh I see.
So muslims are bent upon global islamic domination..is that it?

I'd like to say thats ludicrous, but in fact I cannot blame you for thinking that way because that is what these peope ARE saying. Kill the infidels, spread Islam throughout the land.

It would be nice if Islamic leaders stood up and denounced terror and these kind of statements of global domination but they do not. Perhaps they fear being veiwed as toadies of the west if they do so. Unfortunately for them if they do not distance themselves from these fanatics and get some control over them , the west will be forced to do it ourselves and that will not be very pretty or comfortable for them.

Now, 50 years ago we installed Israel.
The root of the problem in that region, undeniably. Hard to carve a homeland out of territory of people that hate you most and expect them not to get a tad miffed. What is to be done about that now? Should we relocate Israel to Miami Beach?

Osama hmself has given his reasons for the attack, and it is not to spread Islam, not because of US support for Israel. He said he did it because of infidel presence on muslim holy lands (he is referring here to the saudi bases left over from Gulftrot 1). So yes israel and yes islamic global domination , but more than anything else the guy just seems to be a loose screw whose ego was bruised because his mighty army of rebels, the army that repelled the largest super power on the planet (I saw Rambo three...it wasnt easy! ), was scoffed at by his own countrys leaders.

I say he's alive and well, kickin it on Dumbyas ranch with the Prez, as they drink the blood of newborn infants out of Kennedys skull.

Chives,

So muslims are bent upon global islamic domination..is that it?

No they just want Islamic law to rule their former empire.

It really started with Abraham in IraQ having two sons Issac and Ishmael and gods promise to his heir.

As far as the modern issue it ultimately relates back to the confilct over Issac and Ishmael but as far as Bin Laden is concerned it started before Isreal in Saudi Arabia. Pres Truman broke a promise to King Saud not to vote for Isreal and this angered the Islamic clerics in SA. Bin Laden was educated by these clerics as where others. They went on to educate others and it has been spreading ever since.

whoa...cool Kingy. didnt know all that Ismael and Issacc stuff. Gonna have to look into that.

After some brief research i gotta say....

Oh man, that Issac and Ishmael schtick is some whacky goofball stuff. If they're realy pissed about something like that, we should just get it over with and nuke em now, save us the 'tweener years of dealing with lunatics.

I have just lurked around for quit a while. Hate to make this my first post. I hope that you are just poking fun if not you should be ashamed of your self. If you are going to make alligations about any one make DAMN sure you have facts to back it up or you are just what you are standing in! The facts that you stated are about as good as Michael moores facts. Give it up man guys like you will never make a difference because no one in there right mind is going to by into it!

Well, since you're new here and obviously don't know how to play our little game (although it seems you've read up on the Cheney School of Debate), here's what you need to do: if you don't think the above posted has any merit or is not fact based, then please by all means post your facts to refute it. Otherwise you're just what you're standing in (whatever that means). And please make your arguments better than bush and Cheney; no one's buying those anymore.

Careful Jeremy --- Bunch of lefties in here. Problem is most of em can string together a complete thought. Fun to watch the debates though. Step in at the wrong time and nobody can be resposible for the flaming you're likely to get in return.

VH did start a fire and run though --- where ya at?

I've been fishing with ........"TheMillionare".

Nah, just following the fishing side. I didn't think anybody would find much interest in my theory. So I guess I should respond to some questions that were thrown my way.

NZZL:
My theory has nothing to do with whether we should be in Iraq or not. It is about being LIED to by the POTUS. And why couldn't they keep this a secret? They've kept it secret who Cheny met in the White House for our national energy policy. Why couldn't they keep secret what happens in a cave 10,000 miles away?


THEKING:

What part of my logic seemed convoluted to you? I laid out a series of facts and observations. They pretty much tied themselves together to a solid conclusion.


JEREMY:

OReilly hasn't done you any favors. I'd suggest more NPR and less FOX NEWS.

Vhawk29 obviosuly strung so many together, you couldn't follow his analysis! :p

That's what "they" told Woodward and Bernstein.

V,

It's just another grand conspiracy theory from the left to paint Bush in a poor light. One can go out on the web and find support for any such endeavor. The truth lies in the fact that over the many many years people have been dreaming up these convoluted theories very few if any pass the test of time. Did you here the one about OBL and GW being gay lovers?

Or, it could be totally accurate. And then again, it may just be partially accurate. In any case, TK, YOU don't have any facts, or "PROOF" that vhawk is wrong. Conceptually, it's a very interesting concept and well written.

lets recap the past twenty five years or so:

Kennedy-pretty SURE Oswald didnt act alone . Most likely snuffed out by (Rep controlled)CIA. Anyone believe Oswald acted alone? Just a lone gunman a cooky commie? haha.

NIxon (Rep.)-Well we KNOW he tried to cover up the bugging of the dem national headquarters.

Reagan (Rep)-we are pretty SURE arms were traded for drugs to help finance the contras. Anyone care to defend that lil "conspiracy" theory?

Bush 2 (Rep.)-we KNOW there were no wmds.
and we are pretty SURE about the other lies. Time will bear out what lies arent covered up sufficiently, or maybe a senile old Bush 2 will take the stand and say like reagan did "Mommy? I cant remember."

I think the biggest Dem conspiracy you can point to is a blowjob from a chubby intern.
Coincidence all these totally evil plots are Rep generated? or maybe we liberals just like to pick in the poor ole honest and forthright GOP?

PS no one has to paint Bush in a bad light. Just examine his performance in ANY area of his presidency. Hell , just listen to him for two minutes. He paints himself up just fine in the idiots cloth.

Chives see even in your own example you are 50% wrong.

No proof just conspiracy on the Kennedy case. If it where true the only longer coverup has been Roswell

Reagan never ws a conspiracy theory and from day one their was direct evidence.

Nixons tent folded in short order and all the facts where know an proven in th epublic arena.

WMD, What the left consistantly leaves out is there where 10 reasons to go to war each one of them valid . Secondly indepandant review in both England and the US have concluded it was bad info and not an attempt to Lie, cheat or steal. Even your boy Billy Clinton said there was WMD in Iraq well into the invaison. He even said the Iraq war would last less than 2 weeks. Hate the guy all you want but at least get the facts straight.

TK,

So, find the facts to refute Vhawk's 9 points. Verifiable facts, not innuendo's of stupidity, like you usually pull around here!

Anyone else want to take up the challenge, go for it!

Nov. 2004 video of Bin ladens prior to the election. Verrified by almost every nation as being Bin Laden on the tape.

That's not even close to factual. They can not prove that tape was 100% Bin Laden and neither can you.

Nice try. :rolleyes:

Sure they can so much so that it will stand up in court as evidence. You need to look into voice print and related video technology. Almost as good a DNA technology.

No... YOU need to take your blinders off and realize this administration can fake everything they need to and most "intelligence officials" will turn a blind eye. Especially if they are "covert" and don't want their identities revealed.

:rolleyes:

You been watching too many movies

Again, I challenge you to refute Vhawk, point for point, or STFU.



Can't do it can ya?

I only need to refute one point to refute all of them. There is an accepted video showing that he is alive. So any and all of his points are moot. Except that it would make a great Tom clancy book.

TheKing:

First of all which "accepted" video are you referring to? And I challenge you to give me the name of the individual/s who will accept responsibility for authenticating it. 'intelligence officials' doesnt count either. Did you follow any of the links I gave? Did you get a chance to look at some stills from previously "authenticated" video? Is that the best our Intel can do for us?

Is the notion that Generallismo Busho is telling you lies to much for you to handle?

My theory does not rest on any single one of my points. It is not a web based conspiracy. Its a VHawk based conspiracy. Suspicions which hardened over time and with repeated news stories which didn't quite fit together. It would NOT be that hard to keep quiet. I sat in a ravine near Dodger Stadium back in May of 1992 for three days, with 1,600 other Army National Guard troops. The media was reporting that all the Guardsmen called up for the LA Riots had been sent home. The people in charge were worried that the riots would start up again as soon as we were gone, so they 'hid' us out in some ravine. They 'hid' 1,600 soldiers in uniform in Los Angeles. Nobody reported we were there. No reporters, and no media copter's ever bothered us. If those idiots can hide a battalion of troops in LA, they can make a body in a cave 10,000 miles away disappear.


If there was one single story reported in the mass media that completely convinced me it was the one regarding the Swiss research institute which tried to verify a audio tape that "unnamed US intelligence officials" were 100% sure was OBL. They came to the exact opposite conclusion.
Why don't you do your own Google research on that story? I'll provide this link again, but you can find numerous sources from credible news organizations. Swiss research group

Actually while searching for links to post on the board I found the follow up to that story which makes it even better. The Swiss were asked to verify another tape and they refused. The WH had no comment of course.

V


"My theory does not rest on any single one of my points."

Sure it does. Bin Laden has to be dead for anyone of your points to have merit.

"individual/s who will accept responsibility for authenticating it. 'intelligence officials' doesnt count either"

Well since you want to exclude the very groups in each country that has the most expirience at it will you take the old man down the streets word for it?

How about I use the fact that some parasite like Michale Moore did not make a movie about it as proof. Certainly he or Stuart Smallie would have jumped that boat ? Nope none of the main stream conspiracy big wigs will touch it but some nurse from Olympia has it nailed. I bet the CIA is holding you back from taking this Holywood?

When he can't properly debate you Vhawk, he will always insult you.

Holywood? That must be where TK gets all his facts from. Holywood movies!

Seriously, Try and sell it. Better yet hock everything you own and make a movie. It's how spike lee and MM got started. Take it to the American people don't keep it a secret any longer. I bet all you get out of it is free room and board at a fine establishment on a big lake in Whatcom co?

Check my last post I made some edits.

And as for the mockery...I could care less. They mocked the hell out of the guy who said peptic ulcers were caused by bacteria. Now they pay the guy good money to speak.

All I did was go through the 'checkables'. Info that was available through public sources.

TK, don't confuse a conclusion with its premise. I've taken college logic. Your having some trouble with telling the two apart. Don't assume I only took classes for my bach nursing degree either, because I spent too much money taking extra classes for personal interest.

When you say "nurse from Olympia", you better say it with some respect. Else I'll have AuntyM thumbwrestle you into submission.

Wow, he's so desparate he's now argueing with himself. Attagirl.

I want a PERSON to attach thier name to the claim that it is OBL on the audio or video tape. Such as Dick, George, Karl, Donny, or whoever it is that is now the CIA Director. I want a quote that says "I am the Director of X, we have verified this tape to be OBL". All you can find are unnamed sources. No actual spokesperson makes the claim.

So unnamed US intelligence officials are reporting that 'TheKing', makes a living selling carp tacos out behind the Salvation Army. Wow you can't refute that. It comes from an unnamed US intelligence official. Gee, those same officials also tell me that you don't even bother trying to fairhook those goldfish when you catch them. Dang your a bad man.
Unnamed sources are just as dangerous as relying on anonymous sources. In fact thats what they are, anonymous. How do you challenge a source that won't reveal itself?

And of course this all from the same WH that made the claim "Its completely ridiculous to think Mr Rove had anything to do with revealing the name of a CIA operative."

Vhawk,

That quote may very well be out there or it may not be. But the absence of it does not prove anything. It is your standard and your standard alone. A liberal biased profit motivated press would have been all over this a long time ago where there any merit. If you want to claim the same outcome as the guy who said ulcers where caused by bacteria lets see the same methodology and burden of proof he was required to use to prove his claim.

TK, you do realize how foolish you look? When your only point is to argue just to defend righty, you're wrong (y)!

Which of my premises do you find fault with?
Pick one. Is it the one where I make the observation that GW is not interested in OBL personally?
Maybe you've found fault with the reported 'power struggles' within Al Qaeda?
Give me something concrete. The majority of what I gave to support my conclusion were FACTS, things that actually happened and were widely reported. I can't provide proof if you don't tell me what it is you find fault with.

The news media, left or right, does not have complete control over which stories develop legs. Otherwise Libby Montana would have been GW's downfall. Yea I bet nobody knows what the hell I am talking about. Its the real reason Christy Todd Whitman resigned in the middle of her term.

I'll give you all a clue. Its related to the air around the fallen Towers.


Have fun. I have a poker tourney in Shelton to win.

AM,

http://www.piscatorialpursuits.com/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000267


Go to this thread on this very topic from June 2004 and read your comments. Then you will understand why I posted that to mock those that are now on the other band wagon because a fellow lib carries the banner

Thats the problem with you people zero consistancy