Lupo, dependance on the government is part of what is loosening those tight nit communities...

The system as is forcibly collects money from all taxpayers to provide for those in need, the trouble is that the distribution is inefficient, and corupt on many levels....

Taxpayers feel less generous to others because they have already been coerced to contribute...

oregonian- i would disagree. i feel that it is dependance on corporate employment and the need to work more and more to pay the bills is loosening those tight nit communities... now it takes most families two parents working just to get by.....and on the welfare you are concentrating on welfare to the poor which is extreemly small compared to welfare tot he rich which accounts to over 1 million dollars for every dollar spent on payments to the poor......i agree on ending dependance and entitlement to other peoples money but what needs the most attention.....stopping the culvert of wasted tax dollars to the allready rich or stopping the driping faucet of money going mainly to famillies that really need it......and 90% of those on welfare to dependant famillies reall really need it......

Can an apple tree drop an orange? It is tough but how can an illegal alien create a legal child? It would be mean to deport the illegal and break up the family, so treat them as a unit and deport them all. Modify the laws to support the process.
We will always have problems that need attention in this country. That doesn't mean we should become isolationists to solve those problems. That will just creat more and bigger problems.
I have belonged to The IAFF, The Aviation Machinists, The Brotherhood of Railway and Steamship Clerks and Employees, and the Steelworkers. Mostly they all had their hand in my pocket for very little return. I am not refuting the history of union/management relations, just the fact that the unions no longer represent the worker. The union leadership has much more in common with the management types across the table than they do with the rank and file. They play golf together, they belong to the same clubs, etc.
Unions help kill KACC. They shut down the Ravenswood facility and so many others I cannot list them all. You wonder why so many businesses go off shore? Take a hard look at union operations in the last 50 years. The Unions and the litiginous liability game have destroyed more free enterprise than Stalin could have if given a free hand.

lupo,lupo,lupo...

I guess I will try to learn from the perspective from which you speak, but it is very different than my own, I have been broker than broke before, when I was out on my own with a highschool diploma, and I have hung around with people who will always be broke....

I now support my wife and two children in a dumpy little place on a couple of acres which we own, I have my own business, and have had for the last 10 years, my wife does not work other than 24/7 taking care of us and maybe volunteering at the school once in a while.......

I know people who are activly seeking ways to get "free money", but could not be counted upon to show up for a job more than twice a week, they are lazy bastids, and they should be starving to death, they will NEVER be productive members of society/economy as long as there is an alternative. IF you took away every means of survival other than honest work, they would have to get off their ass and work..........

I think the welfare business is better left to the families of the deadbeats, the churches, and nice people who can afford it and get their jollies from having power over people in exchange for letting them act helpless, and that is what it is most of the time, an act...they have been trained to play the victom for money. The guys handing out the money are "enabling" the losers to be just that.

AND...

This crap about a family cannot exist on one income any more is the purest form of B.S. I have ever heard, it ranks right up there with single sex marriage !


How many of these "families" with both parents working and the kids in commercial daycare are just "getting by".....with two deluxe cars, deluxe home in deluxe neighborhood, deluxe aluminum boat not more than 5 years old, Hollywood style wardrobes for the whole family, bicycles, skateboards, computers, microwave "ovens", deluxe appliances, cabin on the lake, extra large 401K, motorcycles, jet skis, trips to the mountains skiing every winter, vacations to Mexico-Grand Canyon-Yellowstone-Disneyland-Bla-Bla-Bla...........

Face it, both parents work because the woman wants to get away from her real duties of raising her kids, it is not caused by the economy.

In case you are wondering, I am in the position I am in now because I try harder than a lot of other people around me, and I live in the best country in the world where a modest amount of intelligence and ambition is all you need. I got an old couch and an old freezer from my Old Man when I moved out after graduation, and a .22 pistol from my Grandmother, everything else I have came from me wearing out a lot of gloves and getting up before daylight and going to work for 20 years.................

Lazy people riding on my tax dollars suck.

Oh brother. :rolleyes: Looks like Oregonian is taking up where TK left off...

I think they think they're the only ones to struggle and make it as a family.

Didn't see any reference to my being the only one, but I have heard there are a few "moms" putting in 40hr weeks, and hiring someone to "watch" their kids and clean the house......and many of these folks could certainly trim their budgets by more than "mom" makes............

First off... I tend to agree that mom's need to raise their kids themselves. I did.

But I don't agree that most can make a mortgage payment, groceries, bills and a car payment on one salary.

As long as women don't feel valued for their contribution to home and family, they will seek personal satisfaction outside the home. Society needs to change it's values... instead of blaming mothers.

I agree that society is driving this, but you must realize that society IS the greedy people who want two paychecks......


A mortgage payment is only one of the things a person has to consider when taking a job and having kids...

I am saying they could live in a plain small house, without all the bells and whistles on one income, and focus on finishing what they started which is raising a family, and I can show you if you want to come over for a BBQ some time....

I sometimes wish for some of the fancy toys other people have, but I'll not be trading away the integrity of my family for material gain.

O, if you think all women do is work for a paycheck, you're mistaken.

I think a lot of people would be happier if they didn't have kids, so why all the pregnancy ???


No, it's not simply a by-product of sex, there are plenty of things which can prevent pregnancy other than abstinence.

My sentiments exactly. I stopped at one, long before it was in vogue.

What amazes me is that so many people are lousy at parenting, but they think they'll get better with more?

It's too bad agreeing isn't more exciting...

Sardonicus and I were pleasant to each other and killed a thread.

Bush sucks... there... that should work.

Bush is still the least of the evils we had to choose from in the last election...and you know it.

I and many thousands of dead people disagree.

i work hard too oregonian.....
i am a roofing contractor which means not only do i come home extreemely tired but i have one of the top ten most dangerouse jobs in the country......i dont like the fact that there are some who cheat on welfare and noone who works as hard as me does like welfare cheats but there are alot of folks that cannot work that need govt assistance for a period of time. and the number one cause of poverty in this country is getting hurt on the job....and its not because of L and I cheats......you only get an average payment of $50,000 for an amputated hand.......


.......im just saying you sentiment is about 2o years out of date......to buy a 700 square foot cottage anywhere around here is $atleast 2500,000 if it is on a lot not too much bigger than the house...and that would be a lucky find, the average home price now in puget sound is $400,000.... and its not because they are building them so big its because the prices are skyrocketting along with fuel prices and food prices and everything else..........sorry but the ole "i use to walk up hill to school both ways" crap just doesnt cut it anymore.......
the times have changed

lupo,

We have some things in common, I cut timber, that may not be roofing, but it ain't for pussies either....

My sentiments are not 20 years out of date, nor one minute out of date, it is called living within your means...if the head of the household can't swing a 2.5 million dollar house payment and still make ends meet then that is the wrong neighborhood to be shopping in, and likely the wrong county to boot ! (plus I'm sure you put in at least one extra zero)


As far as the down and out go(legitimate cases), I'm not saying they don't need and deserve a helping hand, I am saying it should not be the government's job, and dang sure not the Federal government at that ! Beyond the fakers and lazy bums, there are surely some truly needy folks, why can't that be handled by :

1) Family
2) Churches
3) Friends/Neighbors
4) Charity
5) Insurance policies

lupo, I reread your post, it seems that you may have overlooked the part where I explained that I live in example of what I said, if you really doubt it's true come on down, have a look, I'll take you to work for a day, and afterward I'll show you my personal budget.........I live in a modest shack on a great rural location, have 2 great kids and some pretty neat toys.........I never inherited a dime nor had any inside scoop on a great job. I started out cutting fire trail and planting trees, and when I heard about better paying jobs I went and got the job because I worked as hard as I could. My wife is a homemaker and I feel sorry for anyone trying to raise a family without a fulltime homemaker.

Again Oregonian, you seem to think women only work so they can afford a bigger house and better car. Some actually enjoy their jobs as teachers, executives, salespersons etc... and don't want to give up a career just so they can stay home and have kids.

What's wrong with the man staying home and looking after the kids?