Vince,

I thought you were in OR on the lower Big C tribs today doing some scouting. Did the rain change the plans?

I was going to head to SW WA this morning, but I've been sicker than the proverbial dog since Wednesday morning.

Apologies for thread drift.

My thought is that in any conflict involving guerilla warfare, like with an insurgency, atrocities by both sides are nearly a given. This could have been anticipated. You put good soldiers in this kind of situation, and some will crack and do the unthinkable. Mai Lai is perhaps the best known example from Vietnam, but there were numerous unreported smaller incidents. I suspect that the stress associated with these kinds of patrols contributes to bringing out the very worst in human behavior. I'm not excusing the behavior, but trying only to explain and understand why it happens.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

"America is great because America is good, and if America ever ceases to be good, America will cease to be great." Alexis de Tocqueville

Get well Salmo g. I want you at your scintillating best.
That said by a unscrupulous filamentarian anarchist.

Salmo,


Your explanation is right on. And because it was predictable, the politicians who put those soldiers in that situation are also responsible. I think its spelled My Lai, just for trivias sake. I had to look up the spelling in Wikipedia the first time I wrote it. You probably were thinking of the delicious Mai Tai, which is far more palatable then war crimes.


I am heading to places south in the early morning. But the official scouting trip isn't until next weekend.

VHawk

Vince,

As a junior high class spelling champ (no kiddin') it hurts to see that the older I get, my spelling skills are degrading as rapidly as my short term memory. I don't know Mai Tai, but I learned to appreciate margaritas last winter in Mexico.

Yes, the politicians who send healthy young Americans in their stead to empire build or anything else, share heavily in the responsibility for what transpires. No rational person would put soldiers in that kind of situation and not expect to have incidents like this occur.

Good luck tomorrow. And if you're bound for where I think, shoot me a trip report afterwards. I guess I'm fishing vicariously this weekend. Ouch!

Sard,

Thanks for the good wishes, you filamentarian, you.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

A marine's response:

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/flf/article.php?ID=29

I read it Sard, and it comes from the same place as my thinking. The only real dilemna is what to do with the people who pulled the triggers. What is an appropriate punishment for a soldier who has committed murder, but has done so because he was young and exposed to constant life threatening stresses?

Something horrible happened. An inexcusable crime. But what to do about it? I don't know the answer to that. My thoughts fail me.

I have no easy fix or set of consequences to apply. So many lives lost or damaged (including the marines themselves). War is hell. But that is no excuse. They lost it. You gotta believe they know it. Now it's about paying the price for irreparable damage inflicted. I don't have an answer either. Turning them over to the Iraqis isn't a fix. Just in case someone might think that's the way to go. Too much needs to play out to be sure of what happened.

The article does a good job of capturing the explanation of "why." Society is still left with the unpleasant task of dealing with it, knowing that probably no resolution is just. Part of the life ain't fair concept, I think.

What to do about it?

The investigation will likely reveal all of what we already know. They will be charged, court martialed, found guilty and imprisoned at Leavenworth for a very long time.

The UCMJ leaves little room for lawyer shenanigans, despite what hollywood portrays. Even in cases where there is a large measure of reasonable doubt, convictions are common and sentences can be life in prison or death. These Marines are already condemned and politics will assure a harsh sentence.

No such thing as a fair trial under the UCMJ and especially not now.

What to do about it???


Yes, as in what would you do if you could make the call on this.

I can see whats coming for the soldiers involved. Is it going to serve our concept of Justice? Probably not.

It is a tragedy from every angle.

Lets just rewind this back to Nov 2000. If we all the same moves again, then maybe we should be smacking ourselves with that whip-thingy from the Da Vinci Code.

If you mean that our president and his cronies who sent these men to a made up war won't ever be penalized... I think they will, in the afterlife.

Unfortunately in situations like this, the buck stops long before it gets to anyone who is any position of authority...I doubt the punishments will extend much, if at all, beyond those who were in the room pulling the trigger.

Certain politicians will probably spin it to somehow show that we need "more resolve" and use it as an excuse to further the warhawk agenda...nonsensical...yes...but since when has that stopped the war machine?

Fish on...

Todd

The War machine...

The War machine isn't getting all it's government funding and contracts are being renogotiated and/or dropped. The tax cuts and Katrina costs are making the war machine nervous. When the big profits evaporate, (and it is quickly doing so) the war machine will change it's tune towards our current commitments.

Funny you should mention funding of the War Machine...

Budget Gap Means Layoffs at Ft. Lewis

Last weekend there was an article about possibly suspending recruiting because of budget woes.

Damn those liberals and their anti-military ideology; it's gotta be THEIR fault, right? :rolleyes:

Hubby will face the unemployment line on the 15th. For the second time since December. The Navy's budget is being hit harder than the Army's, since they now have only a minor supporting role in this war.

Nevermind that the contract he has been working under for over 10 years is considered vital for ship operations and the Navy wants to keep it going... but the contractor can't do it for free.

Bullets and banners cost money, I guess...maybe we ought to limit the amount of bullets that soldiers are allowed to shoot each week?

Maybe they can take turns wearing body armor every other day with an "armor buddy"? Wait a minute, I think they already do that one...

What we need is a good ol' fashioned tax break for the rich to get the economy up and running high, and then we can afford more bullets! Yeah, yeah...nonsensical, right? Please see note above about nonsensical ideas of the warhawks...

Fight a war on the cheap, it takes forever to "win", if ever, and way too many people die all around...and it's always someone else's fault.

Fish on...

Todd

Ration bullets. That reminds me of the British Army Quartermaster as portrayed in the film ZULU. Oh well he didn't have to do all that paper work after all.

I reccomend readinga book called "Flyboys". Same quandry,different generation. Interesting how no matter when or where or for what reasons a war is fought, the same controversy exists. I would caution everyone that it doesn't matter where the news comes from until the war is over and 50 years have gone by and things are "declassified" the real truthabout what is going on overthere will not be heard and for now, no matter what your politics are, the men and women in the service deserve our unyielding support.

Amen

Unfortunately the "real truth" is written by those who hold the pens, and it's pretty clear that those of us here don't have access to the pens...revisionist history has always been a part of war, here and pretty much everywhere else.

Fish on...

Todd