http://www.whbf.com/Global/story.asp?S=5013032&nav=menu81_2

ATLANTA Two Georgia ministers who spent time in Iraq with some of the Marines now accused of killing civilians in Haditha are telling what they know.

The Reverend Christopher Price says he knew that a Marine had been killed in a roadside explosion, and that "there had been a response." The minister says he also "got the impression insurgents were killed and also some civilians got killed."

Price says as he heard it, "it seemed a normal part of what happened" and came across as "a sort of regrettable but also fairly typical incident."

Price and the Reverend Ben Mathes, also from Georgia, spent part of January in Iraq as embedded reporters for the Christian Radio Network.

Mathes says "if this thing had been as horrible as it's been made out to be, the people of Haditha would have been up in arms" while they were there.

I will have to go back and riffle thru my emails. I'm pretty sure it was in a "Early Brief" on Military.com. However, I will go look.
I mean it could have happened as alleged early on, but there are so many that want to smear our military, and thereby Bush, that I wanted more data. So I've watching pretty close. I hope it was a smear game rather than a real occurence. Civilians take too many hits being in the middle of a fire fight by random chance. Don't need to delibrately add to their misery.

military.com is your source for unbiased news? You're killing me. Can I give a rebuttal based on info I found on BigFatCommie*******.com? One source is useless unless its put into context and the inherent bias is also factored.

And it looks like the "more to come" part has come true, with the announcement of a murder trial of eight marines. Each is charged with premeditated murder, kidnapping, conspiracy and related charges in the alleged abduction and slaying of an Iraqi civilian on April 26. Some of them face the possibility of the death penalty.

They will probably serve some long sentences. They are accused of threatening to kill any fellow marines who talked with investigators. If that turns out to be true, its doubtful they will find any mercy in their sentencing.

The Corps must hate America.

Interesting thread. Appreciate "Oregon's" viewpoint and tenacity. Also appreciate Todd's view point, but the name calling is way out of character. "Oregon" is not the problem here.

I find it interesting that while troops are doing what they've always done in a war, we're suddenly watching them like a hawk, looking for any irregularity. It's really easy from the comfort of a chair in front of a computer to pass judgement after reading some news. What ever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

Using these unfortunate events as political fodder to validate an anti-war sentiment is a mistake. You won't influence the neocons one damn bit, but you can sure damage the self confidence of the men we sent over there.

Will it get so bad that some servicemen stop "reacting" in self defense? Will they take too much time to "think" before they act? That could get them killed.

The Bush neocons don't give a damn about these men and won't have any problem letting them "fry". If some of you haven't figured it out yet, public opinion makes no difference to them. All we're doing is making a bad situation, (Haditha etc) WORSE by harping on it.

Perhaps a new name for this forum is due. What do you think of "Harpers Bizarre"? (not misspelled)

Hmmm, I got kicked in the teeth around here for making the same point about Haditha and our servicemen in combat as you just did AuntyM...

Aunty, "We" weren't looking for any irregularity. These allegations did not come the some investigation by The Washington Post. They came from the combat soldiers who found the bodies of executed women and children. Once again, the initial complaints came from fellow combat veterans who were horrified by what they found.

The notion that "its ok as long as its our troopos that are doing it" has been used to excuse some pretty terrible actions. I don't accept it as a valid argument.


If our #1 priority is the safety of our troops then why are we even there? Its a Republican controlled Congress and White House. If safety were such a priority I wouldn't have needed to donate money to Operation Helmet last year.

If you don't know about Operation Helmet then shame on you. Look it up. Supporting Our Troopsshould be something more then lip service and excusing criminal behavior.

And if our #1 priority is stopping terrorism, does anybody honestly think that incidents like this only serve to recruit more terrorists? Its hard to win hearts and minds by seperating them from bodies and souls.

The truth is, they ARE doing what they've always done and it's not up to you to decide. I didn't put any stamp of approval on it. My point was that some of you think this administration gives a damn. THEY DON'T. They don't give a damn what you think and they don't give a damn about the guys they send over there. So you're not hurting the ones who need hurting, you're hurting the troops.

Shame on YOU for not giving any of these guys the right to a fair trial before you convict them! Who the *#$% do you think you are and who gave you the right to bypass the justice system? Let them at least have their DAY IN COURT.

Don't preach at me about supporting troops either. Your ideas are not new and interesting. I've been saying support the family and give them what they need all along, as well as give soldiers the gear they need, the mental health care they need, and don't cut back on VA funding.

Not my fault if you don't stick around long enough to know who says what around here.

You're assuming ALMOST as much as Rory does. One word of advice. Don't.

Aunty,

First of all my fault for not being more clear that it was the first paragraph that was specifically directed towards you. The rest of my last post was a general response to other peoples points. Let me retry that.

And my response to that is that "We" weren't looking for any irregularity. These allegations did not come the some investigation by The Washington Post. They came from our own combat soldiers who found the bodies of executed women and children. Once again, the initial complaints came from fellow combat veterans who were horrified by what they found.


Now to respond to your last post.

It is the responsibility for Democratic peoples to keep check on their Armed forces.


I don't have the power to revoke anyone's right to a trial. I can only convict if I sat on such a trial. And I only have the meagerest power to insist that such a trial occur by exercising my Freedom of Speech.


Considering that we share alot of the same ideas on what "Supporting our Troops" meant, I am dissapointed that you don't find them interesting. By no means did I ever claim them as new. The shame I directed was not for you Aunty. It was for those who limit their support to a faded yellow bumper sticker, and a tattered flag.

VHawk

I disagree. The press has been breathing down their necks ever since Abu Ghraib, looking for anything they can use to exploit the war and get an edge on ratings.

In fact, many active duty and retired/veterans and the families of these guys are all saying the same thing. These guys may not be able to get a fair trial.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13506195/site/newsweek

Not exactly. Not by any law you can name and only as far as public opinion. It's a double edged sword. In our representitive government, the President is ultimately responsible and your opinion doesn't mean a damn thing to him. Your opinion may matter to some troops as far as their future reactions to a bad situation. Hence my warning, and if I can find it tomorrow, there are some experts that agree with my sentiment.

Again, you seem to think it's already cut and dried that these guys are guilty, and I say, they deserve their day in court BEFORE you or anyone else condemns them. It IS the American way.

For what it's worth (and I know it isn't much) "fair trial" has little place in military courts. It is not the same trial you get in civilian life. Nor is it akin to any Hollywood production you may have seen. The military has there own justice system. That is why it is called Military Justice. It could be very ugly. (Geez, that's awful to say)

The evidence presented in a trial might change my opinion on this, but not anymore then the evidence presented before and after that same trial. A jury verdict concerns legal guilt or innocence; right or wrong is often something entirely different. Otherwise we'd all believe that OJ was innocent as soon as the jury found him not guilty. Or if we waited until the trial verdict to pass popular judgement, then we'd all feel safe letting Michael Jackson babysit our 8 y/o sons.

I base my opinion on the quality and quantity of evidence available. Probably more so in the Hamdaniya case than Haditha, is there something that seems out of the ordinary even for combat. Haditha can be explained under the context of combat operations, Hamdaniya cannot. In that case the soldiers are charged with dragging a civilian out of his home and shooting him, and then after removing valuables from his body, leaving him in a field with a poorly planted weapon. Afterwards they threatened to kill any fellow Marines who might feel the need to report what happened. Let me paraphrase the only explanation that any of the accused has released, 'I don't know why were were charged with this, it was out of our hands. We've been ordered to do these kind of operations before.'

What the hell is going on over there? Is Stanley Kubric directing this nightmare?

Slab, if you think a military trial is less than fair, how do you forsee it with the press and now select congressmen pressuring the president and the pentagon? These guys are going to be found guilty, to prove to Iraqi's that we will be just.

Right and wrong Vince? The war was wrong, but I don't see Americans demanding Bush be held accountable.

It's war. When people are trying to kill you every minute of every day, you will eventually develop an all's fair attitude. Especially if you are on your third or fourth tour, knowing you will do several more. I suppose they could get out... But in a lot of cases, they'd better commit a crime or admit to being gay just to get a discharge.

In addition, the fact that you know as much as you do, tells me the information leak served it's purpose. Your too "one sided" to be fair and balanced.

A tough thread

I think we all need to be on the same side here. At least for now. Passing judgment too early based on media reports is certainly not wise. I have been guilty of that more times than I would like to admit.

I know rage. Not road rage, but the kind where the blinders go up and all focus is on the threat (or perceived threat). Bad decisions can easily be made. I know too that when there is a perception of "I have nothing to lose", watch out. There is nothing more dangerous than someone who perceives that they have nothing to lose.

I'll tell you, my heart really goes out to the soldiers. And I am prompted to ask....

Vince, when was the last time you shook a soldier's hand and just said, "Thanks" while resisting any attempt to paint the war as bad? No matter what you print here, only you know the real answer to that.

At the same time, I have no problem at all picturing Oregonian in the same situation...saying just "Thanks" that is.

At any rate, I certainly hope there will be no "Cheering" when this is over. There can be no winner. I can't say what I feel now...it would get censored, so just use your imagination.

Sorry Aunty, didn't mean to skip over your question. The answer is....they are screwed. With or without any pressure from above normal channels. They have been caught in a situation that makes the Armed Forces look bad and with any adverse comment whatsoever from a superior officer......down they go. Their whole lives will be shot to shait.

War is a Racket!

"Our soldiers have nothing to gain by going to war and everything to lose. War is a rich man's device that, if the truth were known, ignores the will of the people who have no say in it. Modern wars have no heroes but they inevitably produce atrocities and countless innocent victims. There can be no moral justification for civilized people of any nationality taking up arms against one another, unless one nation is directly assaulted by another. War is the tool of barbarians and tyrants and they are provoked by cowards hiding in safe places."

http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_charles__060626_war_is_still_a_racke.htm

Aunty,

Yes, with what I've read I have formed a strong impression of guilt. Most people form opinions of innocence or guilt before charges go to trial. Think of all the high profile trials of the last 10 years, how many people can honestly say they didn't have a strong impression prior to the jury verdict? Even so, they should be given every resource and opportunity to raise a vigorous defense. That includes great defense lawyers and the time to put together a case for their defense.


Slab,

I have a fairly stock answer now. Depending on gender I say:


Anybody who would cheer about what these soldiers have been accused of is sick. The whole thing makes me ill. Don't forget the premise of the original post on this thread...that putting normal healthy people under the constant stress of combat for a long enough time and things will start getting twisted and evil. Any combat vets who would disagree with that?

And if its your son or daughter, husband or wife that stuck over there, then the only cheering I will be doing is the day they come home safely.