Tom & Waterboy,

Cool. No wonder sportsmen are their own worst enemies when it comes to making effective changes in society. You guys have got it down. Apparently you believe we can have it both ways: degrade the envirionment that fish and wildlife depend on and have abundant fish and wildlife and fishing and hunting opportunity. You guys could be politicians, the only species that can simultaneously hold mutually exclusive positions.

I agree that there are environmental extremists, just as there are developmental extremists, like the Shrub administration, for example. The difference is that by aligning with the environmental degraders/destroyers, you'll not have to worry about hunting and fishing - there won't be anything worth hunting or fishing for. At least by aligning with the clout of environmental organizations, there's a stronger probability that there will still be fish and wildlife in the future. You may have to fight to utilize the resource in that future scenario, but at least there will be something there to fight over.

Pick your friends. Make your choices. Live with the outcome.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

I was not going to answer, but hell I CAN'T HEPL MYSELF SOME TIMES.
I never said that I was for paving over the world. Iam for improving and expanding forest and wildlife to higher levels. What you are not getting is that the Serria club, The nature conserviator ( I can not spell this word or find my dam dictinary) Peta and elf are not intersted in this at all. Some of you may not belive me but their goal is to return the us and the world to a pre columbian (no not the river) state. Their other goal is to outlaw fishing, hunting, boating,4x4ing,bike riding, atv's, horse riding, pet ownership, the eating of meat,skiing, etc..... oh I keep putting peta in becouse it was peta that got hunting in state parks outlawed and they are trying to get fishing outlawed as well. They are even trying to get your kids school to change to a veggei only menu. The list goes on . Like I said check their web site.
I know it sound crazy but thats what they want. they dont hide this fact and they work hard in every little way to get it.
have any of you seen the new spots on tv where they state that if you drive a suv you support terrorism!!!!! To bad that the majority of fuel imported to the us is not from the middle east.

almost forgot cliff got a nice 20 inch cutthort on lake washinton today on a nedle fish. He also caught a old elderwiser steel beer can. It was the type that you had to punch your own holes in. See I was cleaning up the enviroment.

Nicely said Salmo G.

You didn't mention the made-up statistics so I will.... here's the best, from the rant above.

"1000 farmers had to sell..."

There's not a 1,000 farms in the whole Klamath project - what a whopper!

Like you said, from some of what gets splattered here, on a board that's supposed to be PRO-Fish, you can see that either fisherman are their own worst enemies.

OR

There's industry agent-provacateurs afoot to make them look that way?

New travesty from Bush Administration?

Bush mulls changes to Clean Water Act

Roger

I got a huge laugh out of the comment that Bush likes to fish, so he wouldn't do anything to hurt the environment or fishing.

Anyone who follows current events cen see that Bush is 100% for whatever will fill the pockets of his corporate buddies like Enron's Ken Lay, and that he couldn't care less about the environment. In his short stay he has attempted to weaken clean water standards, weaken air pollution rules for huge coal poweded plants, tried to open the wilderness to more roads and weaken already pathetic logging rules. The man is an environmental disaster.

Consider that he appointed as head of the EPA a person who had been a lobbist for a mining company and who has stated that she doesn't beleive the Environmental Protection Act is constitutional. Ane even she is now threatening to quit becasue Bush will do nothing to help her do her job.

If you fish you need to let you representative know that we do care about the environment. Fish need clean rivers!

enron and ken lay where the single largest contrubutar to the democratic party and bills clintons campain every year clinton was in office. they where the largest contrubutar to gray davis also. enron also gives lots of money to the serria club.Why so they can figth the building og damms. namely the aurbun damm project. Why becouse enron sells oil not reusable hydroelectic power plants.

The world is ending and Bush is to blame!

Documents obtained by TIME show the energy giant enjoyed much closer ties with Clinton Administration regulators than was generally known. Long before Cheney's task force met with Enron officials and included their ideas in Bush's energy plan, Clinton's energy team was doing much the same thing.

By 1995, Enron was able to successfully secure financing for the Dabhol Power plant in India with loans from the U.S. Export-Import Bank totaling $298 million dollars to cover about 32 percent of the costs. Enron's ownership stake was 80 percent in the Indian power plant.

In 1995 the Enron corporation donated "an undisclosed" amount of money to Energy Secretary Hazel O'Leary's favorite charity.

Enron was able to secure another $100 million in investment money from the U.S. federal agency, Overseas Private Investment Corporation (OPIC).

In 1996, the investment corporation provided another $200 million dollars in "political risk insurance" for the India project, according to OPIC documents.

In 1996, the Enron Corporation gave $100,000 to President Clinton's re-election campaign.

But, it is much easier to just blame Bush!

No doubt Enron, like many huge corporations gives money to anyone who can help them. But that facts are Ken Lay and Bush junior are close personal frineds. Shrub calls him "Kenny Boy.

But all that aside, this thread is about how Bush has systematically set out to weaken environmental laws. Why not blame Bush? Hes' the one doing it. It is an undisputable fact that Bush is working hard to undo environmental protections put in place by Nixon, Regan and Clinton. Yeah, I blame Bush!

et Thank you

I can't help but to jump in give you guy's my 2cents worth!

You all complain that Bush is this, and he is that. You need to look no further then your own Water Quality Experts (WDOE) to get more of the same! We (The Friends of the Cowlitz (FOC), Cowlitz Plan for Restoration-Fish (CPR-Fish) and the Cowlitz Tribes had addressed numerous issues when one of your most favorite "big powers companies", Tacoma Power, had applied for their new 401 Clean Water Permit.

Guess who was defending the big power folk's people? Yes, it was no other then our own WDOE! WDOE was there holding Tacoma's hand and working side by side with them. As just one example of this hypocrisy; WDOE knew that levels of arsenic were above the "federal acceptable levels" in the Cowlitz River. Did Ecology require Tacoma to "monitor" where they were coming from…NO! Did Ecology put this monitoring requirement into Tacoma new 401 Permit…NO! You got to ask yourself Why.

Now why didn't WDOE do that? Because Tacoma and WDOE both had screwed up during the relicensing process, and Ecology failed to catch it. All this was reveled at and duing the Pollution Control Hearing Board (PCHB) hearing, but nothing was really done about it.

So what was WDOE excuse, they said that "arsenic" was a natural occurring element in all rivers in the waters of Washington. Even thought it was above the acceptable "legal federal standards" they went with Tacoma, to cover up their own a$$'s.

So after that folks, don't blame just the "Bush Administration" or the republicans for everything. We need to look no further then our own WDOE to find the fault!

I could say more, but I will hold off foe a little while (boy that hard for me to do).


Cowlitzfisherman

and technalogy rolls on. the problem or mix up with ""legal federal standards" is that when they were written ,mostly in the 70s, "arsenic" was listed to be over the standards if it was detectable at all. well at the time we could only detect so moany parts per million. well parts per million is a lot and should be dealt with. only know tvs have no tubes in them and we can detect parts per trillion. we all have aresenic in are bodys to some parts per trilion.
Aresenic is a naturaly occouring thing. As we increase are ability to monitor we have to rethink the laws and come up with a more realistic requierments. I have no problem with taking are of the planent and work to do so all the time. but we must banlance it with the people on this planet. my last truck towed my boat and took me camping but only got 5 mile to the gallon(76 chevy 454 400 tranny) My new truck is four will drive and pulles my boat and takes me camping at 20 miles per gallon. (ford ranger v6 4x4 love it) but some a-hole on tv tells me i support terriost becouse I dont get 60mpg. if you get 60mpg do you still support terriost just less? I really hate that people on the left of the issue do not care about jobs or familys or the growth of this country.
I see water land forest and wildlife as a renewable resoures. We have the power to do it but we all have to decide to work in that direction. stopping all logging and fishing is not the answer. One more thing, bush is not allowing more roads to be built. he is only revokeing what clintion did on his last days in office by closeing thousands (thiers that word agian)of forrest roads that we have used to fish and hunt and move fire fighting equpment on for years. many of the roads and areas i onced used,not abused, are now closed to me and my son.

They starting closing logging roads during the Reagan era. The timber companies started it.
If someone shows me a study where they have given people 6 glasses a day of water with the new maximum arsenic level for thirty years with no lasting effects then I'll say "OK maybe raising the allowable level won't cause harm".