Is it just me or did snaging salmon reach an all time high last year? It seemed to me that more people than not were not even trying to catch them in 2002. Especially in the smaller rivers and creeks. It seems like there are two many people out there that dont even care to put in there time to learn to fish. Its tough to get the fish to bite when people are ripping water with trebles or 5/0 jigs.



Should the state open some hatchery fisheries to snagging to draw snaggers away from wild runs?

Worse and worse ever year because people who don't know how to fish go to GI Joes to ask about good fishing and get sent to snagging holes with corkies and a new generation of snaggers is born out of ignorance AND with the complicity of WDFW!!!!!

What even makes this worse, is when you see kids and better yet parents with kids fishing with heavy lb test, big hooks, and constantly jerking the rod to snag fish.

Thats why I like winter,spring and early summer fisheries,lots of water,unplesant weather.Seems to me we do'nt see these toads till the weather warms and the water drops.I do'nt think that any thing will change till there is a gamie posted at every snagging hole ,writing tickets and we know that will never happen

you are right snagging in the fall gets worse every year.it makes it hard to fish properly in some of the best holes.i would really like to see the set ups snaggers use get illegalized.it would make it easier for the gamies to determine who is doing what. FISH ON!!!!!!!!!!!

What is "salmon snagging"?


Seriously, anytime fish gang up around here your likely to see it. Doesn't happen only in the Fall; thats just about the only time we've had the luxury of large schools of ganged up fish in recent years. Springers in Columbia tribs the last few years are an obvious exception.

Its not even really a "fishing" issue; its a societal/cultural problem. People fish the same way they drive/work/live. Rudeness and greed do not stop at the riverbank. The attitude seems to be "I'm gonna get mine no matter what!" This ain't nothin' new been going on for years. How did the buffalo almost become extinct inside 20 years?

That being said, we really do need to look at how to manage fisheries where large numbers of "surplus" hatchery fish are present.

Put yourself in the shoes of an angler who is not as "expert" as yourself (noted by the fact that he doesn't even have a G. Loomis- or maybe just an older model). He only goes a few times a year, normally when everyone in town says the fish are "in".The guy goes to the river, sees a ton of guys there, and they are hooking some fish. He takes his place at the end of the line. Since the early bite is off, and the fish are entirely spooked from the horde of anglers his chance of hooking one in the mouth may not be all that great. Using legal gear he lands a fish after 3 hours. Its a bright fish, and he's happy. Should he release it because it was not hooked in the mouth?

Downstream the tribe is netting/gutting/chucking. Hatchery is full; any more will become fertilizer. Maybe that fish is better off on someone's table?

At the risk of what's left of my reputation, I'll say the guy who hooks and "plays with" 50 fish in a day -some hooked in the mouth- some not- may be doing the fish and the guys he keeps from sharing the fishing hole much more of a disservice than the guy who keeps the first two he catches and takes them home to eat!

Well said gsiegel. Many of the people on this board have been salmon fishing for many years and underestimate how daunting it is for inexperienced fishermen to understand the basics(gear, salmon identification, regulations, etc.). I'm all for nailing people that are consciously ruining our resources, but....

I totally agree with your points. Who does more harm to our resources, the numbskull that snags two boot chum salmon in a terminal run and takes them home with a big smile on their face or the expert that catches and releases 30 native steelhead in a single day?

So where can I go to catch 30 steelhead in one day?

Snagging is not fishing!!

If someone just wants fish to eat they can go to the store and buy it. If they want to go fishing they should understand that fishing doesn't always mean catching.

I can't understand where people find the fun in dragging a fish in by its butt. Take a big stick throw it in the current and you'll get about the same fight.

As for the argument that the fish are just going to go to waste is a load of crap. If you're concerned about that why don't we just have the WDFW net them and hand them out. You could just drive up and grab em. Or maybe they could put them in a big holding tank, you could drive up, a person would dip net one, hook it to the end of your line and throw it in the river for you to play. That should help the poor folks who can't catch a fish on their own.

WDFW could even charge for this service, think what they could do with all the extra money.

Oh boy, what a hot topic this could be!

I participated in the fall "take" of salmon. I won't call it fishing, because anytime I have to bring a rock to have something to stand on and then cast into a stream so crowded with fisherman (and fish) that you can hear the lines tangling, I just can't call it fishing.

I know why WDFW pretends that there are fish biting, when everyone else knows that the only thing going on is the attempt to foul hook a fish in the "potential bite" zone of somewhere West of the gill plates.....it's called money. The tickets written generate the sorely needed funding to continue on continuing on.

I personally killed quite a number of released bright, beautiful hooknose by the ridiculous hook-and-release requirement. Disgustingly wasteful, I know. The fish that died were left to the seagulls and whatever other critters living in and around the river happened along.

Since the river is only two miles long, with a fish barricade at one end and closed waters at the mouth, the fish were doomed. The hatchery at one end was plugged with fish and the excess were to be clubbed and dumped un-spawned back into the river. So, thousands (yes, thousands) of fish were slaughtered. And the wardens wrote their tickets. It's all about money, nothing else.

because the indians already have a monopoly on that "service"

build casinos maybe???

Amen Boss man..
No exuse of justification for snagging at all no matter what!
no matter how hard it is no matter how many fishless seasons you go through no matter how novice you are nor how desperate for that wiggle on the end of the line, anagging is wrong period! Even if they are overabundant hatchery fish that are "just going to die". I don't care how many fish the natives net and waste snagging is wrong period !!!!
Snagging not only shows a disrespect for the law but a disrespect for the fish itself. and it shows the true charecter of the one snagging. All snaggers are complete lowlifes. Thoes with morals will not snag because snagging is wrong. When something is wrong, it is always wrong no matter what the circumstances.

Now this is getting fun!

Bossman (?):
I like the way you used the pronoun "you" in referring to someone who might need to snag a fish...that's never been MY problem...

I'm not sure most people see this as such a black/white, right/wrong issue. I don't relly condone snagging. But I also think that this problem, if indeed it really is a problem, is a symptom of how perversely backward our salmon management has become. We have scads of hatchery fish returning to some areas, wild runs going extinct, tribes taking eggs and dumping carcasses, we can't fish them for long in the salt water, and there they are stacking up like cord-wood at the hatchery. Then some poor guy comes along and gets a fat ticket for keeping a fish that was hooked in the pectoral fin instead of on the gill plate?
From a purely logical point of view this makes little sense.

Maybe the good old WDFW needs to pull back on dumping so many plants in some of these areas (RE: Hood Canal chum). All they are really accomplishing is supporting the tribal and commercial take anyway.

BM:
I've heard every ethical consideration in the book, but I would like to see you post your reasons on exactly WHY you feel all snagging is right up there with capital murder. Fish are greatly abused by any means of harvest. Why is hooking them in the head a finer way? I'm sure you know as well as most that MANY if not MOST salmon in some stream situations are "lined" or the hook drifts into the fish's gaping maw. Just curious.

Good Fishin'!

GS

gsiegel,

out of everyone that has responded, you me you make the most sense!!!

respecting the fish??? if you want to respect the fish you should all put your poles away, as i doubt those that are hooked in the mouth think they received more respect than those hooked in the ass.

let me say i do not agree with a spark plug, and a treble hook, but THIS FOUL HOOK CRAP can be taken to far i believe. these fish are dying, and i as a sportsman that helped pay for that resource, and would like to see it utilized, for more than feeding the next GENERATION OF FISH. I have watched the tribes strip eggs from fish, and thow the rest, and you guys worry about FOUL HOOK, GIVE ME A BREAK!!! I know this will be unpopular with the purists, but thats how i feel. someone said above "if they want fish like that go to the store." so now you are encouraging people to buy the more respected netted fish, or tribal fish? oh ya, these fish were more respectfully caught, right??? please, if you want to talk legal, or not legal, so be it, but cut the crap about respecting the fish!


chumster

gsiegel, sorry, if you felt my use of you meant you. I was using you in a generic sense.

Snagging is not capital murder, but its not fishing either.

Salmon do bite, however if you got 20 guys ripping gear through a hole it just ruins it for everybody. If all these non-fisherman had to catch fish for real most would get discouraged and give up.


More fish and a better overall experience for the rest fo us.

PS: I never said anything about disrespectng the fish. I'm sure the fish doesn't care how it gets drug in. But I'm sure its happier when it gets to swim away .

Poor Orse!

FJ...out.

Some very good points made hear!

One of my main concerns is when someone snags a fish,

1. Fights it to total exhaustion because their harder to bring in backwards.
2. Acids build up faster in the muscle tissue then the fishes metablism can deal with.
3. Dragging a fish backwards also can damage gill filaments.
4. There harder to un-hook I normally see people dragging them upon the rocks and waiting till the stop thrashing around so they can pull the hook out of the tail.
5. They get kicked back into the water half the time, un-revived



{3}(as most catch and release fishermen should know dont swish em back and forth to revive them!)

For these reasons part of me says they should be able to take there two fish and get the hell out! Otherwise there killing alot of would be spawners!

The other part of me thinks if the wdfw legalized snagging all the sporting goods stores would be out of treble hooks!
And snagging is just plain wrong! what pride can you take in holding two nice fish that you snagged and tell people you caught them? You would have to be a pretty shallow person to do that.

Its a tough one to be sure!

Funny how snagging and other abuses like littering go hand in hand at the usual crowded spots. I noticed on another post about the Blue Creek clean up that what looked like a huge crowd of concerned fishermen cleaning up garbage was really a huge group of shoulder to shoulder fishermen and a small group of cleaners. Intentional snagging is really poaching. Maybe these overcrowded spots should just be closed to all fishing. The fact that there are tons of fish at terminal areas stacking up is another problem. In Alaska snagging is a way of life where fish are really plentiful. Catching a Sockeye on the Kenai River is almost impossible without snagging or flossing. Up there if you are a native you can dip net fish to take home. Snagging is still illegal but tolerated I guess. What we have on this board are people who would like a nice river all to themselves and snaggers are "ruining it for everyone"...

Close those over crowded spots to all fishing.Then everybody will just move to the next best spot.Didnt eliminate 5the problem,just moved it.

FJ

If people only knew!

A lot of you sit here and complain how "terrible" snagging is, and that WDFW should ticket everybody for even thinking about doing it, and It's not sporting like to snag or attempt to snag fish, etc, etc, etc. You also say; "take away their car, their boat, fishing rod and everything else that is even near them when they are attempting to snag fish". Why? Is snagging really "that bad"? Didn't WDF support snagging 30 years ago?

How many of you have ever taken the time to really look into the history of "snagging" in our state? Thirty years ago, WDFW didn't even care if you caught your fish from the backend or from the front end, or for that matter, either side! Now, WDFW wants us to believe that "snagging" a deadly sin… what hypocrisy!

Isn't it a method that can be used to remove excess hatchery fish at terminal fishing areas? Thirty years ago; I bet that you didn't even know…no I know that you didn't even known; that WDF was doing it's best to promote a snag fishery at the Cowlitz Hatchery.

The only reason it was never developed was that there was no "money" available at the time, and they (WDF) couldn't talk Tacoma into paying for developing it. Tacoma didn't want WDF to sell all the "excess" salmon; they (Tacoma's Board of Directors) wanted to sell them all for themselves and keep all the money from the sells.

Tacoma had their legal staff produce a legal opinion for the board to see if they could indeed sell the excess fish. Luckily, their attorneys realized that the "fish" were actually the property of the State, and that Tacoma would most likely loose in the courts if they attempted to sell the states fish.

Here's a little history from the Washington Department of Fisheries (WDF) for this board to read: It comes from a "MEMORAMDUM" that was addressed to: Management and Research, Hatcheries, and it was dated January 29, 1970.

"Snagging - Rearing Pond Development"

"The development of a multiple use pond at the Cowlitz Hatchery site was discussed in detail at this meeting. The pond could effectively and conveniently serve as a jack snagging pond and as a rearing -release pond for the hatchery. Nearly 70,000 chinook and coho jacks passed through the hatchery fish facilities in 1969. This was twice the contribution realized from the first Washougal "snagging season". It is estimated that the total jack return in 1970 will approach 60,000 fish.

Within a few years, the annual Cowlitz Hatchery mitigation production obligation will be clear. Enhancement beyond stable annual production is of little interest to the City; however, the development of supplement rearing-release ponds could potentially increase the station production to a level approaching one million pounds annually. Two sites exist adjacent to the hatchery that could develop for rearing of salmon. The capital cost of the development would only be fractional by comparison to that of a complete station.

Those attending the meeting were in unanimous agreement that the development of the rearing ponds should be seriously considered. The Cowlitz staff and the development of a package for presentation to Administration. It was also felt that the legal staff should be consulted regarding the contractual commitments of the project."

Well, Tacoma didn't buy it, so it fell through! That's the only reason why there was not a legal snag fishery developed on the Cowlitz…it was all about money!

Just one more piece of history for you guys to remember.

As far as snagging itself goes, I am neither for it, nor am I against it. To me personally, Its just another way that some people do their fishing.

Cowlitzfisherman

Micropterus,

Do you usually throw sticks at every hornet's nest you see, also? You stirred up a good one with this topic. So what is snagging? Plainly put, it's one method of reducing a fish in the stream to a fish in possession. It happens to be illegal in WA state, but it wasn't always so, for salmon that is.

Fish are reduced to possession in a lot of ways. Gillnets, purse seines, fish wheels, reef nets, dip nets, long lines, and trolling lines are common, or once common commercial and subsistence fishing methods. I never saw it, but have often enough heard of farmers and others using pitchforks to gaff salmon and load onto wagons to haul to their fields as fertilizer. Most recreational fisheries have for many decades been limited to using a hook and line, and require the fish to be hooked in the mouth to indicate a "fair" catch. And some fish are snagged in a fin or elsewhere on their body, either accidently or deliberately. Those fish probably didn't feel any worse about their experience than any of the fish caught by the other methods.

Gsiegel,

Thanks for summarizing snagging as a societal/cultural problem. However, it looks like it's a problem for some people, but not others. Obviously, some see snagging as a positive opportunity. Sorry to be so picky, but I think snagging might be more accurately labled a cultural issue than a problem, and I'll get to that later in this post.

Fun5Acres,

You said "It's all about money, nothing else." I'd like to know how you know that. I'm pretty well acquainted with many folks over at WDFW, and I can get a lot of reasons from them as to why there are lots of surplus fish stacking up below hatcheries, which tends to facilitate snag fisheries. But money isn't on the list of reasons. What do you know that they don't or won't tell me?

RA3,

I like you on this BB, and I think I'd like you in person, but you're so predictable in your willingness to rush to judge those who don't share your values. Clearly, you have values, and they're pretty high ones regarding our fishery resources. And I think that's pretty good of you. But how can you know that anyone whose behavior is characterized by lessor values than yours is a lowlife? I sometimes wish I was so sure of my self. You know that ". . . snagging is wrong, period!" What does that mean? Is everything you don't agree with " . . . wrong, period!"? Ya' know, a dead fish is a dead fish is a dead fish, no matter how morally it was caught.

CFM presented an interesting perspective that I think gets closer to the heart of the snagging issue. He seems simply to acknowledge that not everyone who fishes subscribes to the same values regarding fishing.

Fishing has its roots in food procurement. At that level, any means of obtaining the fish would be ethical and unlikely to violate a society's or cultural values. Sport means different things to different people, and I think that's why some of the "lowlifes" that RA3 referred to can have a pretty good time, a sporting one, if you will, by going out to the local snag fishery and harvesting a few. Others, and that seems to include most of the regulars here, either were raised in or otherwise acquired values for a "sporting tradition" that has roots in a structured concept. The sporting ethic that most, but not everyone, shares has a lot of tradition in its roots that usually includes a reverence for the resource we pursue and a concept or rules of fair chase - which would be the fishing regulations for most of us. The sporting ethic or tradition that I identify with has its roots in England and western Europe, where a lot of our common laws and cultural attributes are from.

I think a lot of the conflict in a discussion of snagging stems from an assumption of a common definition of what is sporting and that we share the same values. Here are a couple examples that are a bit extreme, but should help illustrate my point. A couple years ago a lot of scarce, or even rare, spring chinook were gaffed or snagged from the Nooksack River. RA3 might rush to label the perpetrators as lowlifes (sorry RA3, flame me if you must), but it turns out they were Russian immigrants who saw the fish as a food source, probably not much differently than people in primitive societies would have, which happens to be a pretty common value accorded to fishing in many places in Russia. They just don't share the same value, and may have been ignorant of the law. Nonetheless, they most likely have no idea of the sporting ethic and tradition that many of us share.

Another example is about crabbing in north Puget Sound by SE Asians. I should apologize for picking on ethnic groups, as the examples are more extreme, but I think they better illustrate the point. In this instance, some of these folks have been busted repeatedly for keeping crabs of all sizes and sexes. So they have been informed of the law, but it is so much in conflict with the values of their culture where it only makes sense to keep all the crabs that you can use.

My point, if I have one, is that we cannot assume that everyone shares the same values. It goes beyond valuing the sporting ethic, and includes valuing respect for the law. I think it's pointless to judge and condemn those who choose to snag. It makes more sense to inform and educate those who are receptive to it . . . and issue citations to those who aren't, because those are the regulations. And the regulations make sense over all, but that's another thread.

Sincerely,

Salmo g.

Salmo,
You da man. Love yer style!

Sincerely,
Roger

LETS CUT THROUGH THE CRAP!!!! The purist figures the more tickets issued fore snagging the less fishermen on the river, makes more room for those QUESTIONABLE hook setting they do when few people are around.

I have seen these fishing "watchdogs" yell at children for putting a hook in front of a all but dead chum, then keep a questionable hooked fish themselves. PLEASE, just mind your own business, get a life!!!!

I will state again, i do not support blatent snagging, not as a moral issue, but as a legal one.

chumster

CF you state that your not for nor against snagging! I now this may be hard for you to do, but if you could pry yourself away from the computer for a day and go see what goes on during salmon season you would change your views! And if you would"nt there is something seriously wrong with you. For example I fished the east fork of the satsop this fall and I was so disgusted with what I saw it took all my power to hold my temper and not end up in jail. 2 guys were snagging all day the kings, they proceeded to drag up the bank god forbid they try to squirm away or else they would end up with a boot to the side.
After holding the fish out of the water for a couple minutes so they could take pictures of the fish they "caught", they decided that this was a keeper and proceeded to wrap a rope through the gills, I took it upon myself to let these clowns know that it is closed for kings. (Oh we didnt now) they said what gets me is the guys fishing next to them would"nt say a word. My question to you is would you say something? or are you "not against snagging". No I am not a game warden just a sportsman who cares!

snucking ***gers

Excellent post SALMO! What you did is called thinking before posting.

Hard to tell a snagged Salmon from gill netted one, once it is cooked. Especially if its a bunch of hungry kids that only care that it's food. I have stated before that some systems can support a snag legal fishery. If we open up those systems that allow thousands of lockjawed hatchery fish to rot, that would help provide lots of protein to needy family's. That will allow for better management of both the environment and the fishery of some streams. A good example would be the Quillcene(Killscene) River. If it had a small window for a snag legal fishery and then closed, the river, property owners, and fish would benefit greatly. This could free up Officer's for areas that really need protecting, where runs are threaten.

There are snag legal fisheries in Canada as well as Alaska that get raved reviews by the locals. Something to think about. <img border="0" alt="[wall]" title="" src="graemlins/wall.gif" />

Salmo, you are da man! Very well thought out post! I for one try to control my acts and the people around me, thats it. If I can educate an open mind, right on! If not F-em'. People will do and act as they are.

Indeed, an excellent summary of the whole issue by Salmo; and great points made by Hookum.

This was a pretty good discussion; I think this type of discourse is important even though there is no obvious resolution. Thanks!

With all of the other issues as far as our anadromous fish are concerned this is not one I'd carry a banner for either way, really. If you're concerned about the welfare of salmon busting a few snaggers' chops seems like pretty small potatoes in the long run.

Salmo g.
______________________________________
Fun5Acres,

You said "It's all about money, nothing else." I'd like to know how you know that. I'm pretty well acquainted with many folks over at WDFW, and I can get a lot of reasons from them as to why there are lots of surplus fish stacking up below hatcheries, which tends to facilitate snag fisheries. But money isn't on the list of reasons. What do you know that they don't or won't tell ?

_____________________________________

Well, it's one of those common sense (dare I use the phrase?) issues. Picture this, please.

The limit of fish is four salmon in a two-mile (my approximation) stretch of water and there exists a "special regs" rule (barbless hooks, baitless, to protect the chum) and the hatchery is plugged, and LEGAL gear includes lead at the hook (but not directly attached), and the river is no bigger than the Cedar or Wind, is it even remotely reasonable to think that anyone can limit out by enticing fish to bite? Keep in mind that the entire length of river is lined with both fish and fisherman and the Natives are filling their coolers with treble hooked fish. (Not an exaggeration....not a judgment, just trying to paint a picture)

Now......you tell me why a warden would bother writing a ticket? To protect the fish? To enhance the fishery? Perhaps a power-trip?

I believe none of the above.....I saw one unknowing unfortunate novice receive a $650 ticket for killing a snagged dark coho. The guy really didn't have a clue. He had killed one previously...."fair hooked", so to speak. All the while, an under cover warden fished along side this fella. If it's not about the money, please do tell me what was/is to be gained by writing this oaf a monstrous ticket? The only answer that seems to make sense to me is the Green God.....Money.

Just a side note to set it straight.....I filled a punch card and a half off that river....all legally hooked with legal gear without any reefing my hook through the water or with my lead even remotely close to the hook. All the fish I kept were bright, healthy coho.....many with lice still attached. And only one of all those fish was hooked inside the mouth. Who's kidding who? I'm a very accomplished fisherman, and I know that there was next to NO chance of drawing a strike at any time.

Now perhaps some of you fine folks would have left to fish somewhere else, but I just kept my smoker going for a month or so and ate fresh salmon every way imaginable. Shared it with my neighbors and co-workers and enjoyed myself immensely. I have fished here in Washington for over 40 years, and I can say that I have not seen fishing like that since day one.

You want to stand in judgment? Feel Free....I'll sit here and read and eat my smoked fish. Regards

I'm with you B-Money...make a polite comment and if it gets through, great. If not, then nothing I can do or say will convince them otherwise.

this thread actually reminded me of an episonde earlier in the fall. Granted, I'm no pro and am eternally grateful I found this board and started reading the posts with zeal...here's why:

A friend of mine took my novice self down to the local river. We were having a great morning -not catching- but fun nevertheless. So after a couple hours go by, some of my friends family showed up. Here's where it gets interesting...I moved off the river to let them fish and a guy next to them goes and gives them some tips

1. cast out into the water-all the way across if you can make it
2. let your offering sink a little
3. every few seconds or so...give it a rip, while continuing to reel in. (they were fishing with corkies, not spinners)

Now, his explanation of the technique went like this - "When the fish see that darting through the river - they will attack it!"

Like I stated earlier...I am eternally grateful for coming across this board and learning from all of you first - otherwise, I would have ended up believing that guy like my friends family (I did tell them later that his "technique" was nothing less than snagging and that was against the law).

guess some people have to go home with fish each time out...kinda sad but in the end their loss.